So Why Is The Gospel Still An Offense?

[kurious_kathy]

I could say the same for Mohamad Atta and his colleges.



If it's so damn important for us to believe in him, why did "the Lord" allow this "veil" to fall over our eyes in the first place?

So much of omnipotence.

I don't understand why so many still don't know Christ but the Bible does say if a person rejects him then he hands them over to a depraved mind. Pretty sad when so many think they are pretty smart but never the less it does seem obvious now to me because I myself was once blind to what sin had done to me and then Jesus came and opened my eyes to my need for him. It is truly a gift but it can be painful too since I don't like seeing how many sins I have done in my life. I was once like you and could not see how I was seperated from God because of it. If God can save me then he can save anyone. Maybe he just hasn't allowed something in your life yet that makes you want to believe and receive him? I unfortunately think the only time some of us gets it is when a tragedy strikes. Why? I guess God uses our brokeness somehow to reach us.

 

[paximperium]

I don't understand why so many still don't know Christ but the Bible does say if a person rejects him then he hands them over to a depraved mind. Pretty sad when so many think they are pretty smart but never the less it does seem obvious now to me because I myself was once blind to what sin had done to me and then Jesus came and opened my eyes to my need for him. It is truly a gift but it can be painful too since I don't like seeing how many sins I have done in my life. I was once like you and could not see how I was seperated from God because of it. If God can save me then he can save anyone. Maybe he just hasn't allowed something in your life yet that makes you want to believe and receive him? I unfortunately think the only time some of us gets it is when a tragedy strikes. Why? I guess God uses our brokeness somehow to reach us.

I speak KK.

Translation: "I believe in the Bible because the Bible says it true. You are blind for not believing in the Bible because the Bible says so. I'm hoping for something bad to happen to you so that you'll turn my god."

KK, let me break it to you. No one wants to become like you.

 

[HansMustermann]

It is truly a gift but it can be painful too since I don't like seeing how many sins I have done in my life. I was once like you and could not see how I was seperated from God because of it. If God can save me then he can save anyone.

Ah, born again. Well, some pieces of the image finally click into place.

However, don't flatter yourself. I sincerely doubt that you were badass enough to justify a statement like, "If God can save me then he can save anyone."

 

[kurious_kathy]

So how is this thread different from a "Why do atheists hate God?" sort of thread?

KK, I don't find the bible itself offensive. I like literature of all kinds. Some parts are obviously petty and poorly written (or poorly edited), but other parts are pretty wonderful. (One bit I'm especially fond of is the purely fictional account of Jesus' "Agony in the Garden" just before the arrest.) And its role in the dominant religion of Western Civilization over the last couple thousand years gives it a unique place in literature and the arts of our cultures.

I AM offended when people try to justify hateful and barbarous political positions with it.

Hi Joe it sounds to me like you try to be discerning which is a good thing. Not everyone who states they are Christian actually is and there are many counterfiets stating they are of the Christian denomination but they are not following the true gospel or right teachings of Christ like the Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses. We must be fruit inspectors.

 

[kurious_kathy]

There's no evidence any of the apostles died a martyr's death.

Why should I believe that? Do you have any evidence that they didn't?

 

[paximperium]

Why should I believe that? Do you have any evidence that they didn't?

Do you have evidence that they did?

My psychic sense says that KK's answer will be: "The Bible said so."

 

[joobz]

Why should I believe that? Do you have any evidence that they didn't?

Do you have evidence that Shiva doesn't exist?

 

[temporalillusion]

I understand your thinking in humanistic terms as all suffering seems wrong but God has a purpose for everything he allows.

I'll be interested to hear God's purpose for the children that die of starvation every 5 seconds before they can have anything but a short life of constant pain. These things are easy to be flippant about if you've never been literally starving.

I certainly do not like some of what God allows but I attribute much of it that he lets us all reap what we have sown to some capacity.

I'll be interested to hear what was sown by those children to deserve such a brutal punishment.

Pharoh was the one who brought that curse on his people.

After God hardened his heart. Hey woudln't hardening his heart violate Pharoh's free will?

By the way there's no evidence the Exodus ever happened.

God has the right to choose how he wants to deal with people.

Hey Allah, come look at the little ants run around on their little planet!

 

[truethat]

I understand your thinking in humanistic terms as all suffering seems wrong but God has a purpose for everything he allows. I certainly do not like some of what God allows but I attribute much of it that he lets us all reap what we have sown to some capacity. Pharoh was the one who brought that curse on his people. God was just trying to free his people fron the evil egyptians who made tem slaves and since pharoh did not cooperate he was the one responsible. God has the right to choose how he wants to deal with people.

I don't think anyone likes death but everyone will surely face it. Why do you think we die?

Ok so let me ask you this. If God lets us reap what we sow then why don't you?

In case you missed it, Most of us are fully aware of what God thinks of us. We get it, we're going to hell.

For some people you are willing to let a person DIE in order to save your ass. For some of us we would not want a man's blood on our hands, we reject the game, we reject the "sacrifice, we reject God's need of a blood sacrifice, we reject all of these things as inherently evil.

If you choose to worship, obey and follow evil, that is up to you Kathy, but the rest of us have said no dice. Human dignity is not something to be trifled with.

I do not accept that an almighty creator needed to execute a fellow human being, be that babies or Jesus, in order to forgive us for our sins.


If God can't find a way to forgive people without murder then **** him. I will not be party to the death of another person in order to save my ass.

I'd rather burn.


Is that clearer?


We all know that we are going to die. For some frightened people they are willing to execute and murder for a chance at the afterlife. For others, we respect the human dignity, however fleeting, however momentary is a greater gift than that of eternal life given by a sadistic evil entity.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Hi Kathy.

I know you’re got a lot of different discussions going on at once in this thread, and it may a bit overwhelming to try to answer everyone, but I want to try to give you a serious answer to your OP. I (formally a biblical fundamentalist, now a weak atheist) don’t find the Gospel offensive. I also don’t find individual Christians offensive. I do frequently find attempts at witnessing by various Christian sects tedious, but I assume that they generally mean well. At worst talking to them is like talking to people who take football way too seriously.

I do, however find it very offensive when Christians do things that are unkind, bigoted, or just plain factually wrong, and then justify their actions through claiming some assumed moral high ground because of their religious affiliation. I also find the pettiness that some Christians display in regards to people who do not accept their world view very wearisome.

Ghandi is quoted as saying "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." This is the problem with Christianity as I see it in the USA. If a group wants to assume some kind of moral high ground, then they should be at least as moral as everyone else. But time and time again I see Bible Literalists in the news found coked up with prostitutes, or out right lying in an attempt to jam ID into the classrooms or the Catholic Church covering up molesting priests. On a personal level the nicest guy I know is a Muslim. The second nicest guy I know is a Hindu. The third nicest guy I know is an agnostic. The people who I know in my daily life who are the most upfront about being Christian are also the most stubborn and intolerant of others, and will make unsubstantiated claims and try to use morality as a bludgeon against people who call them on it.

It is not the “Gospel” that I find offensive, or that Christians have their faith. It’s the stubborn mean-spiritedness that I frequently see in Christians, and their churches, and their attempt to justify this stubborn mean-spiritedness by invoking an unknowable God that I find very offensive.

Well what does this sound like? Once people accept Christ they are the target of the enemy so of course you will some problems, Satan is always trying to destroy a Christians testimony and unfortunately I think is too successful at his game. Can a true believer lose his salvation, no but he can be weak in his walk and perhaps the Lord will just take them home if they fail to serve right. Welcome to the true war zone!
If the gospel of Christ wasn't true Satan would not be working so hard to get people not to believe it!!

 

[kurious_kathy]

You misunderstand the doctrine of the immaculate conception - it has nothing to do with sex.

Since Adam and Eve at the fruit, all mankind was cursed with the taint of Original Sin - we are born as sinners thanks to Adam and Eve, and must be redeemed.

However, Mary, being the one who was to give birth to Jesus, was conceived without this taint. Presumably her parents had sex, but an exception was made and she did not get the taint of Original Sin that everyone else has.

Jesus is the only one whose conception didn't involve sex.

Oh so you bought into the Catholic lie have you? Mary was a sinner like everyone else and knew she needed a Savior. Do you read your Bible because it's right in the gospel of Luke1:46-55 Pay close attention to verse 47 why would she call him Savior if she had no need for one?
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Well what does this sound like? Once people accept Christ they are the target of the enemy so of course you will some problems, Satan is always trying to destroy a Christians testimony and unfortunately I think is too successful at his game. Can a true believer lose his salvation, no but he can be weak in his walk and perhaps the Lord will just take them home if they fail to serve right. Welcome to the true war zone!
If the gospel of Christ wasn't true Satan would not be working so hard to get people not to believe it!!

The problem with this being, of course, it assumes Satan is real.

Oh, and could you, now you're here, please comment on my question in the other thread you're in?

Linky

 

[Neverfly]

I might also argue Jesus showed a bit of a temper when he destroyed the moneychangers/merchant tables in the Temple. Is willful detruction of personal property not a sin on the list?

One of the deadliest sins- Wrath.

 

[GeeMack]

Oh so you bought into the Catholic lie have you?

Oh, so you bought into the Christian lie, did you?

 

[kurious_kathy]

I think that's exactly what she was thinking. She has given us the "truth" many, many times. Surely by now we should have seen the light! So are we still offended by the Gospels?

Of course, Kathy is the correct one to answer this. I just doubt that she'll bother.

Ah! Well I will answer. I am not the one who saves anyone, Jesus is the only one who can do that it is just my hope to shine some light on the matter.

People die outside of Christ everyday and it is certainly the worst thing that can happen to a person. If I share nothing else that sticks in your minds I hope you'll at least remember I tried to reach out and share the truth that I have found with others. Everyone needs Jesus! He is certainly no illusion but he's real and if you want to know him you must choose to accept him on his terms. Does that mean we understand it all, No. It's a spirit thing only God can make himself known to a person but he will not unless you look for him with all your heart and mind.

 

[cyborg]

It's a spirit thing only God can make himself known to a person but he will not unless you look for him with all your heart and mind.

This must be why you are trying so hard - you're still hoping god will make himself known to you aren't you?

 

[Beerina]

Holy cow, 5 pages and it's only a day old!


I think you touched a nerve here.

Is it the message of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross that you find offensive?
Or is it the Christians who share the message with you?

Not to put too fine a point on it, I find the concept that we live in a reality where a god will punish us for not believing in him to be hard to believe.

Furthermore, I would not want to worship a god who did such things, even if it existed, which I do not believe. It would not be deserving of such praise.

Hence the entire concept of god sacrificing himself on the cross to appease his own wrath or righteousness or whatever is irrelevant. He's jumping through a hoop of his own design, an act only he cares about.

Odd.

 

[kurious_kathy]

KK, also remember that believers do a lot of persecuting themselves. And, no, I would not persecute anyone. The history of the Christian church is so bloody and horrible (not that others aren't as guilty, too) that I have a hard time feeling sorry for any believer who complains of persecution. The present is not so different from the past. Imo, only secular laws prevent the "rest of us" from being persecuted by believers in some countries. Not only does the US offer religious freedom, but it offers (or should) protection FROM it. As for me, I'm pretty much live and let live, as long as no-one is harmed.

Yes you are right the Catholic church was wrong for the people they condemned and burned at the stake just for writing and learning the Bible in English. I am appalled they did this as it is certainly not Christian at all. And then when we start with Constentine forget it. That's where it all started going really wrong. Constantine's foretold conversion is no evidence to me of true faith, what do you think?

And what do you mean you are being persecuted? One by one the government seems to be giving up our freedoms or trying to take them away so I have a lot of concerns about American freedoms as I do not see we have what we had and it's getting worse. And in my opinion it's not the Christians causing that!

 

[HeyLeroy]

Hi, kurious_kathy.

I see you're still working your way down to my post (here, #128) and I realised that my question #3 deals with the Old Testament. It's still a good question, and your answer to it would sure go a long way to converting me, but as it doesn't really relate to the gospels, you can skip it if you wish.

Still looking forward to your answers to my other questions.

No one but Jesus lived a sinless perfect life. He was the only acceptable sacrifice to redeem this lost world. God requires holiness which only Jesus is. Jesus did not claim to be a prophet, he said he was God!

Mohammad even admited he could not live a perfect holy life and had doubts about himself and his faith.

That leads me to another question! Geez, I thought it'd be easy to get to the bottom of all of this; oh, well. I'm positive you'll lead me through!

Okay, here goes:

If Jesus was tempted to sin (

Luke 4:5-15 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours."

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.

and

Matthew 4:5-10 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

and even just the contemplation of sinning is considered a sin (Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.)

how can you assert that Jesus was without sin?

Thanks, looking forward to your guidance to salvation!

 

[HansMustermann]

And what do you mean you are being persecuted? One by one the government seems to be giving up our freedoms or trying to take them away so I have a lot of concerns about American freedoms as I do not see we have what we had and it's getting worse. And in my opinion it's not the Christians causing that!

Really? Was Dubya an atheist?