So Why Is The Gospel Still An Offense?

kurious_kathy said:
He is holy and cannot even look at sin so it is our fault, not his. He wanted the best for each of us but we turned evil, not the other way around. Does this make sense to you?
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Not at all. I don't remember ever "turning evil." I know, I know, we all carry the sins of our forefathers, and 6000 years later god is still holding a grudge. What or who defines "evil" in this story anyway? Wasn't it god himself who declared Adam's and Eve's actions evil and punishable by an eternity of hellfire? And didn't god create Satan in the first place? Why did he let him into the garden? Why did he not give Adam and Eve at least a little shrubbery of knowledge that they could eat from and realize that snakes aren't supposed to speak?

Btw, if "God cannot even look at sin" why are his followers - who are all sinners according to your religion - bothering to pray to him? Don't they know that he can't even look at them when they're so full of sin? Don't they understand that he's turned his back on them because he's a petulant spoiled brat and the creator of all he's deemed evil?

I think Jesus is very pissed off when a Catholic prays to Mary!
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How can you tell? Does a fig tree whither and die every time a catholic prays to Mary? Or is that something that only happens when they refuse to bear fruit out of season? Ahhhhh, if only I could be as perfect as Jesus was. Getting "pissed off" at life's little foibles sounds....pretty human to me. Asking people to hate their parents, spouses and children to prove they're worthy to follow him? Evil. Nay, offensive.
 
So how is this thread different from a "Why do atheists hate God?" sort of thread?

KK, I don't find the bible itself offensive. I like literature of all kinds. Some parts are obviously petty and poorly written (or poorly edited), but other parts are pretty wonderful. (One bit I'm especially fond of is the purely fictional account of Jesus' "Agony in the Garden" just before the arrest.) And its role in the dominant religion of Western Civilization over the last couple thousand years gives it a unique place in literature and the arts of our cultures.

I AM offended when people try to justify hateful and barbarous political positions with it.
 
kurious_kathy said:
Do you really believe the apostles would have died a martyrs death if Jesus wasn't the Messiah? They died for their cause and I find it very unlikely they would do that if they did not know what it was they were fighting for.

And you guys cannot discount the cannon of scripture as nothing as it has been proven to be true history and accurate! I pray the Lord lifts the veil from your eyes!
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Kathy, while I find your faith in those martyrs' sanity to be touching,

1. there have been lots of people who did give their life for false beliefs or even outright lies. You can find a touching example here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/01/the_odd_body_confessing_sam/

"In 1666, the Great Fire of London destroyed 80 per cent of the city. Hubert confessed to having started the fire by throwing a crude fire grenade through an open bakery window. At his trial it was proven that Hubert, a sailor, had not arrived in England until two days after the fire started, was never near the bakery where the fire started, and was so badly crippled that throwing anything was beyond him. If that were not enough, the bakery had no windows.

Nevertheless, as a foreigner, a Frenchman, and a Catholic, Hubert was a perfect scapegoat. Ever maintaining his guilt, Hubert was brought to trial, found guilty, and duly executed by hanging."

Then we have such touching cases as a woman who went to the inquisition of her own free will and asked to give a declaration that, yes, she's a witch, she went to the devil's sabbath, danced for Satan, spit on the crucifix, etc, _and_ here's the list of people who were with her there. (One can only assume it was her enemies.) They were all executed, including herself. Sorta a highly original suicide bomber ;)

2. That someone _believed_ statement X, doesn't make X automatically true.

E.g., the Hashshashin (from which the word "assassin" comes) could have sworn that Hassan-i Sabbah is a true prophet of Allah, and that the islamic paradise is very real. In fact, that they had seen it first hand, with their own two eyes. So they cheerfully gave their life, knowing they'll just get back to that paradise.
 
kurious_kathy said:
First of all how can a person not beleive in heaven or hell? This makes no sense to me since God planted eternity in our hearts. It's kind of like a salmon swimming up stream but often times they do not make it. Going to heaven should be easy but for some reason it isn't because it takes faith that Jesus is the son of God sent to this earth to save the lost. All who believe in Christ will be saved but since I am on the opposite side as most of you here on jref I just get confounded why it's so hard to believe Jesus is who he claimed to be, the Messiah?
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It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of not caring. I don't care if there is one, so it doesn't matter if I believe or not.

Second it makes my heart glad to know you care about making a difference in the world, everybody needs love and God is the author of it. It's just too bad there aren't more caring people out there taking some time to serve others like you have. I had volunteered at a local pregancy center for 2+ years but do to health issues I have taken a leave but may go back or help when I can. There are lots of troubled teens out there who need hope. The bottom line is Jesus is the one who can truly give us hope and a future as he has promised to make this world new again someday one where there will be no more pain or sorrow. I believe all the worlds sorrows have been rooted in our penatly for sin, that's why we die but Jesus promises new life, why wouldn't you want that? You can really have it better someday if you receive Christ but if you do not you will wish you had because hell is real too and many will send themselves for denying Christ's finished work on the cross. Have you really tried to see Jesus right for yourself?
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I don't care about new life. I care about a better world.

Didn't read my post did you? Too busy loving Christ?
 
Hi Kathy.

I know you’re got a lot of different discussions going on at once in this thread, and it may a bit overwhelming to try to answer everyone, but I want to try to give you a serious answer to your OP. I (formally a biblical fundamentalist, now a weak atheist) don’t find the Gospel offensive. I also don’t find individual Christians offensive. I do frequently find attempts at witnessing by various Christian sects tedious, but I assume that they generally mean well. At worst talking to them is like talking to people who take football way too seriously.

I do, however find it very offensive when Christians do things that are unkind, bigoted, or just plain factually wrong, and then justify their actions through claiming some assumed moral high ground because of their religious affiliation. I also find the pettiness that some Christians display in regards to people who do not accept their world view very wearisome.

Ghandi is quoted as saying "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." This is the problem with Christianity as I see it in the USA. If a group wants to assume some kind of moral high ground, then they should be at least as moral as everyone else. But time and time again I see Bible Literalists in the news found coked up with prostitutes, or out right lying in an attempt to jam ID into the classrooms or the Catholic Church covering up molesting priests. On a personal level the nicest guy I know is a Muslim. The second nicest guy I know is a Hindu. The third nicest guy I know is an agnostic. The people who I know in my daily life who are the most upfront about being Christian are also the most stubborn and intolerant of others, and will make unsubstantiated claims and try to use morality as a bludgeon against people who call them on it.

It is not the “Gospel” that I find offensive, or that Christians have their faith. It’s the stubborn mean-spiritedness that I frequently see in Christians, and their churches, and their attempt to justify this stubborn mean-spiritedness by invoking an unknowable God that I find very offensive.
 
kurious_kathy said:
If you were God you would be able to explain and define everything. Sin is what it is, we fall short of what we were meant to be so we could have fellowship with our Holy God. He is holy and cannot even look at sin so it is our fault, not his. He wanted the best for each of us but we turned evil, not the other way around. Does this make sense to you?
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God created us, knowing full well exactly how we'd turn out. Moreover, the vast majority of us will wind up being tortured forever because we turned out exactly the way god created us. So god comes to earth in the form of a man, calls himself his son, and has himself tortured to death in order to protect his own creation form his own wrath. But the sacrifice isn't quite good enough because in order for it to work people have to believe that it actually happened. In short, we've got to choose from scores of equally unbelievable stories and hope that we guess correctly. It's either that or fry.

Does this make sense to you?
 
LostAngeles said:
She was conceived without sin (that is, sex). The immaculate conception refers to her conception and not Jesus's.
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You misunderstand the doctrine of the immaculate conception - it has nothing to do with sex.

Since Adam and Eve at the fruit, all mankind was cursed with the taint of Original Sin - we are born as sinners thanks to Adam and Eve, and must be redeemed.

However, Mary, being the one who was to give birth to Jesus, was conceived without this taint. Presumably her parents had sex, but an exception was made and she did not get the taint of Original Sin that everyone else has.

Jesus is the only one whose conception didn't involve sex.
 
Kathy isn't going to change her mind. Certainly none of her nonsensical ravings are going to change a skeptics mind. So what's the point of this conversation again?

If someone has never been trained how to use their mind they often aren't recoverable.
 
Actually, Kathy, I have a question regarding the construction of your OP title.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that I don't think you really mean to suggest that the gospel is 'an offence' ("The charge, m'lo'd is that the defendant did knowingly and with intent gospel in a public place with no regard for his audience."), I am intrigued by your use of thee word 'still'.

What is it that has happened recently which is supposed to have changed the offensive, or otherwise, nature of the gospel? Surely you're not suggesting that your witnessing here has been so startlingly effective as to have rendered all of us Christian?
 
Psi Baba said:
The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” He stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” Just then, a woman stepped forward and lobbed a stone at the prostitute. Jesus then said to her, "God dammit, Mom, I'm trying to make a point here!"
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Ha! I remember this from the "Dave Allen Show." Except that I may have not remembered the last bit correctly. I recall it as "he heard someone pick up a stone and whirled round. Then he said, "Mummy, put DOWN that stone!"

Anyway, Truethat summed things up nicely. KK, I do admire your dedication. I really do. But I am a bit disturbed that you seem to see many of us here as your enemies.

As for me, I was once a believer. Or at least I tried to be for years. After I read the bible cover to cover and asked many questions and tried to reason things out I left the church. I was disturbed, horrified, saddened, and disappointed. I still have an interest in religions, but it is now academic rather than personal.

As for Mary, as a former Catholic, it made sense that Mary was conceived without sin because god would not plant his son into an unclean womb. And Catholics do not worship Mary. Prayer to her is for intercession. Just like it is with the saints. People pray and talk to saints because they identify with one or more, or strive to be like them. It adds a human touch to an otherwise unspeaking, unknowable god. And if Jesus gets pissed off, that would really worry me. Many of his behaviours as written in the bible disturb me. For me it's a good thing I don't believe he ever existed at all. Not enough credible evidence.

KK, just try listening to us. As for me, I do not want to try to dissuade you from your faith. But I would appreciate it if you tried to understand why many of us feel the way we do. That could lead to a productive exchange. :)
 
CurtC said:
You misunderstand the doctrine of the immaculate conception - it has nothing to do with sex.

Since Adam and Eve at the fruit, all mankind was cursed with the taint of Original Sin - we are born as sinners thanks to Adam and Eve, and must be redeemed.

However, Mary, being the one who was to give birth to Jesus, was conceived without this taint. Presumably her parents had sex, but an exception was made and she did not get the taint of Original Sin that everyone else has.

Jesus is the only one whose conception didn't involve sex.
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All right. Catholic Dogma is just weird.
 
kurious_kathy said:
We have other historic documents other than the Bible to prove he lived
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No we don't, and many documents which should have contained documentation like the Roman records make no mention of him. You are lying about it. Lying is a sin according to your god.
 
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