Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[DOC]

Quote from post 1919

"Early Christian writers, like Eusebius, liberally engaged in "holy lying" and many of his lies are still put forth as true. Even St. Augustine deemed it "expedient" to make people believe certain things that are false, and to conceal other things that the "vulgar crowd" should not know. Through the centuries, religious "fathers" have deliberately forged, fabricated and dissembled the beliefs demanded of their "children,"

I noticed there was "no source" for any of the above in the article found on the "Freedom from Religion" website.

 

[paximperium]

DOC, you can thank me later.

"The gravest of the ecclesiastical historians, Eusebius himself, indirectly confesses that he has related what might rebound to the glory, and that he has suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace, of religion. Such an acknowledgment will naturally excite a suspicion that a writer who has so openly violated one of the fundamental laws of history has not paid a very strict regard to the observance of the other; and the suspicion will derive additional credit from the character of Eusebius, which was less tinctured with credulity, and more practiced in the arts of courts, than that of almost any of his contemporaries"
(Gibbon, Rome, vol. ii., Philadelphia, 1876).

"It must be confessed that the ministers of the Catholic Church imitated the profane model which they were impatient to destroy. The most respectable bishops had persuaded themselves that the ignorant rustics would more cheerfully renounce the superstitions of Paganism if they found some resemblance, some compensation, in the bosom of Christianity. The religion of Constantine achieved in less than a century the final conquest of the Roman empire; but the victors themselves were insensibly subdued by the arts of their vanquished rivals" ​

(Gibbon, Rome, vol. iii. p. 163).

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/fathereusebiustheforger.html
​

​

 

[paximperium]

Quote from post 1919

"Early Christian writers, like Eusebius, liberally engaged in "holy lying" and many of his lies are still put forth as true. Even St. Augustine deemed it "expedient" to make people believe certain things that are false, and to conceal other things that the "vulgar crowd" should not know. Through the centuries, religious "fathers" have deliberately forged, fabricated and dissembled the beliefs demanded of their "children,"

I noticed there was "no source" for any of the above in the article found on the "Freedom from Religion" website.

Oh yeah DOC, in case you missed it, at the bottom of the article you allegedly read:

1. Turville-Petre, E.O.G. Myth and Religion of the North. New York: Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1964, p. 79
2. Smith, Warren Allen. Who's Who in Hell. New York; Barricade Books, 2000, p. 559
3. Walker, Barbara G. The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets. HarperSanFrancisco, 1983, p. 420
4. Smith, op. cit., pp. 83-239
5. Ibid., p. 458
6. Campbell, Joseph. Occidental Mythology. New York: Viking Press, 1964, p. 70
7. Ochs, Carol. Behind the Sex of God. Boston: Beacon Press, 1977, p. 121
8. Potter, Stephen, & Lauren Sargent. Pedigree. New York: Taplinger Publishing Co., 1974, p. 176
9. Smith, op. cit., p. 52
10. Ibid., p. 675
11. Ibid., p. 602
12. Ibid., p. 879
13. Ranck, Shirley Ann. Cakes for the Queen of Heaven. Chicago: Delphi Press Inc., 1995, p. 11
14. Abelard, Miles R. Physicians of No Value. Winter Park, FL: Reality Publications, 1979, p. 86.
15. Harpur, Tom. The Pagan Christ. Toronto: Thomas Allen Publishers, 2004, pp. 150, 179
16. Ibid., pp. 49, 182

So DOC...fess up, you didn't even read it did you?

 

[DOC]

And Constantine was not a guy to mess with. He wanted results, and he wanted them fast. He ".... had over 3000 Christians executed because their interpretation of the Bible did not agree with his. That is more than the number of Christians who died at the hands of the Romans during the well known 1st century "Christians to the lions" persecutions. "

I assume this occurred during a religious war with a North African community. Maybe you could give us "a source" to described how and where these supposed 3000 executions occurred.

Also I've heard it said that the organizational framework of Christianity that was in place at the time was the reason that the West was able to maintain some degree of autonomy after the barbarian invasions. In other words Christianity prevented the West from total chaos after the barbarian invasions and the Dark Ages and thus what we know as the West today owes a great deal to Christianity.

 

[zooterkin]

Also I've heard it said that the organizational framework of Christianity that was in place at the time was the reason that the West was able to maintain some degree of autonomy after the barbarian invasions. In other words Christianity prevented the West from total chaos after the barbarian invasions and the Dark Ages and thus what we know as the West today owes a great deal to Christianity.

Why do you assume it was Christianity rather than the organisational framework that was responsible?

 

[DOC]

Oh yeah DOC, in case you missed it, at the bottom of the article you allegedly read:


So DOC...fess up, you didn't even read it did you?

And which one of those footnotes has to do with the actual quote that was presented in the post that had derogatory statements about Augustine and Eusebius? I didn't notice any.

 

[DOC]

Why do you assume it was Christianity rather than the organisational framework that was responsible?

Without Christianity the Catholic organizational framework would not be in existence. Without this framework the West we know today might be very different and maybe the entity we know as the West might not even be in existence. For this reason Non-believers probably owe more to Christianity than they realize.

 

[paximperium]

And which one of those footnotes has to do with the actual quote that was presented in the post that had derogatory statements about Augustine and Eusebius? I didn't notice any.

Click on the 2nd link provided and read the dozens that are provided. Now, will you actually fess up that Eusebius is a liar or will you continue with your nonsense?

 

[paximperium]

Without Christianity the Catholic organizational framework would not be in existence. Without this framework the West we know today might be very different and maybe the entity we know as the West might not even be in existence.

So?

For this reason Non-believers probably owe more to Christianity than they realize.

And that somehow prevents non-believers from criticizing it?

 

[joobz]

Without Christianity the Catholic organizational framework would not be in existence. Without this framework the West we know today might be very different and maybe the entity we know as the West might not even be in existence. For this reason Non-believers probably owe more to Christianity than they realize.

You are right.
thank you for the inquisition.
Thank you for the genocide of south america.
Thank you for the war of northern Ireland.
Thank you for the anti-semitism that fueled WWII.
Thank you for permitting/condoning slavery.
Thank you for conding the feudal system and the monarchy.
Thank you for harboring and protecting Child molesters instead of protecting the children.



Or, perhaps, DOC, you view these things as "Acceptable Losses" in the grander scheme of things?

 

[AWPrime]

Without Christianity the Catholic organizational framework would not be in existence. Without this framework the West we know today might be very different and maybe the entity we know as the West might not even be in existence. For this reason Non-believers probably owe more to Christianity than they realize.

Might is the word for this. Either way the remains of the roman empire did provide a framework, be it Christianity or otherwise.

 

[DOC]

You are right.
thank you for the inquisition.
Thank you for the genocide of south america.
Thank you for the war of northern Ireland.
Thank you for the anti-semitism that fueled WWII.
Thank you for permitting/condoning slavery.
Thank you for conding the feudal system and the monarchy.
Thank you for harboring and protecting Child molesters instead of protecting the children.



Or, perhaps, DOC, you view these things as "Acceptable Losses" in the grander scheme of things?

I've already responded to most of the issues you mentioned above in my threads, and I don't have the time to repeat myself here. But some people including myself think Christianity is the greatest source for good the world has ever known; and that this world would be a much more scary and dark place if Christ never came. Here is a list of some of the positive contributions Christianity has made through history:

From the Book "What if Jesus had never been Born" by James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe as quoted in the book "America-A Purpose-Driven Nation"
By Sr. Pantana, Sr. Philip

http://books.google.com/books?id=9T...James+Kennedy+"Christ+and+Civilization"&hl=En

The above website listed 15 contributions. Here are 6 more from Kennedy's book:

- High regard for human life

- The civilizing of many barbarian and primitive cultures. {We've already talked about cannibalism and human sacrifice practiced in primitive cultures}

- The codifying and setting to writing of many of the world's languages.

- Greater development of art and music. The inspiration for the greatest works of art.

- The countless changed lives transformed from liabilities into assets to society because of the gospel.

- The eternal salvation of countless souls.

As the Kennedy book says "The last one mentioned, the salvation of souls, is the primary goal of the spread of Christianity. All the other benefits listed are basically just by-products of what Christianity has often brought when applied to daily living."

 

[paximperium]

But some people including myself think Christianity is the greatest source for good the world has ever known;

Everyone know of your judgment and honesty. Your opinion of this matter is as relevant as Kent Hovind's.

and that this world would be a much more scary and dark place if Christ never came.

Nothing beats a biased ethonocentric and essentially bigoted position. Oh, well who cares about the efforts of China, Japan and the many African nations that was destroyed by your "Christian" Civilization.

- High regard for humanChristian life

I fixed it for you. Which has been shown to be false and not even special to Christianity.

- The civilizing of many barbarian and primitive cultures. {We've already talked about cannibalism and human sacrifice practiced in primitive cultures}

So is genocide is warranted against those barbarians?

- The codifying and setting to writing of many of the world's languages.

That is probably the stupidest claim I've ever heard. It just shows how downright ethonocentric and downright ignorant you are.

- Greater development of art and music. The inspiration for the greatest works of art.

More ethnocentric garbage. The art from China, the Mayans, Aztecs, Japan prove otherwise.

- The countless changed lives transformed from liabilities into assets to society because of the gospel.

Ahhhhh...slaves.

- The eternal salvation of countless souls.

The murder and enslavement of countless non-believers in the name of your fantasy.

As the Kennedy book says "The last one mentioned, the salvation of souls, is the primary goal of the spread of Christianity. All the other benefits listed are basically just by-products of what Christianity has often brought when applied to daily living."

You make it seem to be a good thing? Yes as have been pointed out multiple times. You guys care about some potential afterlife based on myth and are willing to kill everyone and destroy anything to achieve that fantasy. We got that.

 

[six7s]

- High regard for human life

Anyone who wants/needs to pretend that your messiah has had an overall positive impact with regard to human rights is ridiculously deluded

- The civilizing of many barbarian and primitive cultures. {We've already talked about cannibalism and human sacrifice practiced in primitive cultures}

You might have talked about it before... but then you waste much bandwidth on irrelevant nonsense

- The codifying and setting to writing of many of the world's languages.

So... you seriously think need to believe that - in the absence of christianity - the Portuguese, French, Spanish, Germans, etc would have refrained from developing and flexing their colonising muscles?

- Greater development of art and music. The inspiration for the greatest works of art.

Bollocks

- The countless changed lives transformed from liabilities into assets to society because of the gospel.

This makes even less sense than your usual lame-arsed so-called arguments

- The eternal salvation of countless souls.

More bollocks - unless you have and can provide

(i) evidence for a 'soul'
(ii) evidence for 'eternal salvation'​

 

[Hokulele]

- The eternal salvation of countless souls.

I don't suppose you have any sort of evidence for this.

As the Kennedy book says "The last one mentioned, the salvation of souls, is the primary goal of the spread of Christianity. All the other benefits listed are basically just by-products of what Christianity has often brought when applied to daily living."

Nor does he.

 

[joobz]

I've already responded to most of the issues you mentioned above in my threads, and I don't have the time to repeat myself here. But some people including myself think Christianity is the greatest source for good the world has ever known; and that this world would be a much more scary and dark place if Christ never came. Here is a list of some of the positive contributions Christianity has made through history:

So you don't deny the statements I made. Rather you belileve they are acceptable losses. Your argument amounts to saying that christianity isn't good, but rather the best of the worst?

- High regard for human life

By condoning slavery.

- The civilizing of many barbarian and primitive cultures. {We've already talked about cannibalism and human sacrifice practiced in primitive cultures}

by practicing ritual cannibalism.

- The codifying and setting to writing of many of the world's languages.

because nobody heard of writing until christ? You're funny.

- Greater development of art and music. The inspiration for the greatest works of art.

greater than what exactly? Are you saying that the ancient greeks made junk?

- The countless changed lives transformed from liabilities into assets to society because of the gospel.

Assests? IS that code for slaves?

- The eternal salvation of countless souls.

Salvation from the punishment that god would mette out. sounds kind of like a mafia boss saying, "You pay me protection money, and I'll make sure nothing bad happens to you....by me."
That's not salvation, it's extortion.

As the Kennedy book says "The last one mentioned, the salvation of souls, is the primary goal of the spread of Christianity. All the other benefits listed are basically just by-products of what Christianity has often brought when applied to daily living."

So the primary goal of christians are to be made men?


ETA: I just like you to know DOC that you just excused the suffering of children who were molested by catholic priests. You just minimized thier suffering. Thier torture that they went through at the hands of clergy who were protected by the church. You defended the church against them. You are excusing horrible actions for the sake of saying that "Well, christianity's the best thing anyways, so it doesn't matter..."

You've made the argument that christianity gave us a better world. What about the world for those who suffered by christianity?DO THEY NOT COUNT!

 

[Simon39759]

Hello guys;

I read through this whole thread a few days ago, and yesterday I found a series of youtube videos that addresses some of these claims (I can not post links just yet, but its called "DID the disciples die for a lie? (Part 1)" by ProfMTH)


It might be of interest to some of you guys.

 

[six7s]

Hi Simon - welcome to the forum

YouTube: “DID the disciples die for a lie?” results 1 - 20 of about 61

--------
@Simon:
Tip - to inflate your post count above the 'can't post links yet' point, visit the Humour forum - incredible as it may seem, some of the threads there are even more surreal than those in R&P!

 

[DOC]

So you don't deny the statements I made. Rather you belileve they are acceptable losses. Your argument amounts to saying that christianity isn't good, but rather the best of the worst?

You want to blame Christianity for the the shortcomings of some of the people who claim to be Christians. That's like blaming the free enterprise system for crooked business executives who cook the books to deceive investors.

Even Christ said not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. He also said (paraphrasing) there are those who have my name on their lips but not in their heart.

 

[zooterkin]

Without Christianity the Catholic organizational framework would not be in existence. Without this framework the West we know today might be very different and maybe the entity we know as the West might not even be in existence. For this reason Non-believers probably owe more to Christianity than they realize.

That's dodging the question. Regardless of who set it up, or why, was it the organisational framework, or Christianity that was responsible for the survival of the West? Do you even have anything back up your contention that without the framework, there would have been total chaos after the barbarian invasions and the Dark Ages? You made the claims; were they based on anything more than hand-waving?

Regarding the Dark Ages themselves, there was a fascinating post just the other day on that very topic. (My reading of that suggests that any framework left in the West was the remnants of the Roman government, while the Byzantine empire existed in the East as, arguably, the continuation of the Roman empire.)