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Scriptural literacy

I should never have mentioned that speculation, as now I am getting the itch to research it more fully! Hmm, I wonder if our local library has a copy of Eusebius...

There is this site. Also, I see Bart Erhman published some translations of the Apostolic Fathers. I'll have to add all of this to my ever-growing list as well...

I haven't listened to this yet, but there is a continuing education series I just ran across at the Stanford site on the Historical Jesus.

I hope the link works. It's on itunes, so you have to download itunes first if you haven't done that. Looks like ten lectures and a syllabus. The syllabus isn't much to write home about, but I hope the lectures are good.

Thanks for the link, but I'm probably gonna wait to download it until I hear from you if it's worth it or not.:)

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Jeremiah....wow....just wow. How was this organized? I've got poetry, prose (which is often, but not always, written in 3rd person), chronological notes, etc. I'm about half-way....I got distracted today and ended up watching Monty Python's The Life of Brian. I love that film...
 
There are ten lectures, all approximately 1 1/2 hours long. They appear packed with info.

I listened to part of the first yesterday and all of the last lecture. Download the last lecture and listen to it. It's pretty eye-opening. I need to go through the rest to find out how he ends up where he does, but this guy talks about two regional variations in the Jesus accounts -- a northern and southern version. The northern version was apparently concentrated on Jesus as a person, and is the type that died out. The southern version is based in Jesus justification by God in his resurrection -- so that includes the pillars of the faith and Paul early and is what the gospels were built on. He seems to think that Mark de-emphasized the apocalyptic message (I've heard that before but wasn't too sure about it) because he denies everyone a visitation after death -- the women run away and don't see Jesus and everyone else has already fled. He thinks Mark was written in Rome soon after the Neronian persecutions when people were running from the faith (makes sense to me) -- the ultimate message being that you have to suffer like Jesus suffered (take up your cross) and God will sort out the justification bit afterwards (so don't worry about this life). I brought my laptop to work to listen to the second lecture. I think I'm going to have to get an ipod on the way home. My mp3 player doesn't seem to support itunes stuff. There is a huge website that has free lectures from various universities and language courses and you name it here which is where I found this.

Isn't the internet freakin' wonderful?
 
Meh, let me listen more before giving any recommendations. There is lots of good info and a good discussion of Daniel, but probably nothing more than you already know.

The northern/southern split is based on Q, and I always get a little queasy when people start trying to use Q to prove something else. Here's the reasoning: we know about the pillars of faith (Peter and James) and Paul, who seemed to believe primarily in the death and resurrection of Jesus. At least that is true of Paul. I don't know how we could know this of Peter or James. The idea is that they were either in Jerusalem for the execution or had an experience in which they believed Jesus had been justified by God after his death. This is the southern group (Jerusalem, obviously). I don't get how Paul is part of a Jerusalem group, though, because he was based in Syria, but whatever.

The northern group was supposed to be composed of people who followed Jesus in the Galilee. They are supposed to be concerned with his life and not his death. The argument rests on an absence, though. The group of sayings that we have constructed as Q do not mention his death and are focused on his life. So, the postulate (like some of the wackiness that Burton Mack gets into) is that there was a separate group of people who only concerned themselves with Jesus' sayings and didn't care anything about his death.

I think that is bordering on silly.
 
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OK, made my way through Zechariah and took a few notes. My general feeling is that Zechariah was less batcrap crazy than Jeremiah or Ezekiel. He was very specific about details, and tying those details into the events of his time. It was clearly written about/for specific people, and it seems rather funny to me that some of the details clearly made it into the gospels (riding the colt into Jerusalem and the 30 shekels of silver are probably the best-known examples) even though they had nothing to do with a messiah in the Jesus sense. It was clearly God (and Joshua) who would come into Jerusalem a-fightin' and a-smitin'.

That said, I am inclined to agree with the earlier posts that just about everything in the gospels seem to have some other source. I seriously doubt anyone was keeping a diary when Jesus was wandering and preaching (especially with the end times just around the corner), so I would guess that in order to make the story seem real, details needed to be added, and what better way than to plagiarize existing works.
 
Meh, let me listen more before giving any recommendations. There is lots of good info and a good discussion of Daniel, but probably nothing more than you already know.

The northern/southern split is based on Q, and I always get a little queasy when people start trying to use Q to prove something else. Here's the reasoning: we know about the pillars of faith (Peter and James) and Paul, who seemed to believe primarily in the death and resurrection of Jesus. At least that is true of Paul. I don't know how we could know this of Peter or James. The idea is that they were either in Jerusalem for the execution or had an experience in which they believed Jesus had been justified by God after his death. This is the southern group (Jerusalem, obviously). I don't get how Paul is part of a Jerusalem group, though, because he was based in Syria, but whatever.

The northern group was supposed to be composed of people who followed Jesus in the Galilee. They are supposed to be concerned with his life and not his death. The argument rests on an absence, though. The group of sayings that we have constructed as Q do not mention his death and are focused on his life. So, the postulate (like some of the wackiness that Burton Mack gets into) is that there was a separate group of people who only concerned themselves with Jesus' sayings and didn't care anything about his death.

I think that is bordering on silly.

Well, I've started to download them. I'll give a listen and see if anything new and noteworthy comes up. If you come across any other good bits please let me know in which lecture I can find them.

Is the teacher a member of the Jesus Seminar? The north/south theory sounds like something I came across looking at an article (or maybe a web site) regarding that group.

Speaking of the Jesus Seminar, I've never read any of John Dominic Crossan's work so I picked-up a copy of Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography and The Birth of Christianity. Anyone familiar with his work? Or the Jesus Seminar?

OK, made my way through Zechariah and took a few notes. My general feeling is that Zechariah was less batcrap crazy than Jeremiah or Ezekiel. He was very specific about details, and tying those details into the events of his time. It was clearly written about/for specific people, and it seems rather funny to me that some of the details clearly made it into the gospels (riding the colt into Jerusalem and the 30 shekels of silver are probably the best-known examples) even though they had nothing to do with a messiah in the Jesus sense. It was clearly God (and Joshua) who would come into Jerusalem a-fightin' and a-smitin'.

That said, I am inclined to agree with the earlier posts that just about everything in the gospels seem to have some other source. I seriously doubt anyone was keeping a diary when Jesus was wandering and preaching (especially with the end times just around the corner), so I would guess that in order to make the story seem real, details needed to be added, and what better way than to plagiarize existing works.

Very true. I still have to finish Jeremiah, but I'm sure Ichneumonwasp was correct when he stated the theme is the same as Mark.

Wasn't there a country song titled "Don't come to bed lookin' for lovin', if you've been a-fightin' and a-smitin'"?

Perhaps not...:D

I just gave myself a late X-mas present and ordered this book. I also have another Raymond Brown book coming on the early churches and I ordered the writings of the Apostolic Fathers as well. Pretty soon, I may just find a college and enroll in some sort of religious studies class...

BTW Hokulele, have you looked for any other text that might support your theory on the early church?
 
Speaking of the Jesus Seminar, I've never read any of John Dominic Crossan's work so I picked-up a copy of Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography and The Birth of Christianity. Anyone familiar with his work? Or the Jesus Seminar?


Not me. Sorry.

Wasn't there a country song titled "Don't come to bed lookin' for lovin', if you've been a-fightin' and a-smitin'"?

Perhaps not...:D


Hah!

BTW Hokulele, have you looked for any other text that might support your theory on the early church?


Not yet. I skimmed the NT epistles, but need to look into the period after the epistles. I have been a bit crammed at work this week (will be worse tomorrow through the weekend), so hope to get to my local library with a list of search terms for the reference librarian on staff (who is AWESOME) sometime next week.

I haven't forgotten about it yet!
 
Well, I've started to download them. I'll give a listen and see if anything new and noteworthy comes up. If you come across any other good bits please let me know in which lecture I can find them.

Is the teacher a member of the Jesus Seminar? The north/south theory sounds like something I came across looking at an article (or maybe a web site) regarding that group.

Speaking of the Jesus Seminar, I've never read any of John Dominic Crossan's work so I picked-up a copy of Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography and The Birth of Christianity. Anyone familiar with his work? Or the Jesus Seminar?

I don't get the sense that he is. He identifies himself as "not an expert". He is a good lecturer though.

He is heavily influenced by the Jesus Seminar group, though. He uses Crossan for several of the course texts and mentions his name frequently.

I didn't bring my laptop with me today, so I can't look at the lecture titles (can't download anything on the work computer), but from what I remember the second lecture covered Daniel in some detail. He never really said anything that you didn't say earlier in this thread, though. I guess the one exception might be an historical datum concerning the reference to the abomination of the desecration in the temple in Mark. In Daniel it was the statue of Antiochus as you already mentioned. In Mark he suggests that it was an outpost of the Roman forces bearing down on Jerusalem and the Temple. His reasoning had something to do with the direction from which they attacked, but I can't recall any other details. It didn't sound like much of an argument to me.

Decent discussion of the probable Zoroastrian influence on Judaism resulting in apocalypticism in the third lecture. The fourth lecture goes into way too much detail on the wacky end-times scenario that dispensationalists believe. I haven't finished the fourth lecture yet for various reasons, including the fact that our power went out last night.

I think they are probably worth listening to, but don't make a huge effort. You know, if not all of this stuff, then most of it already.

Color me unimpressed over the northern/southern split so far, but he might be able to convince me. It has made me go back through Paul again to comb through what we can gather from what he taught. I've decided to spend at least a couple of days on 1 Thessalonians alone. Most of the message seems to have been how to live, not what to believe. Even in this early letter he seems pretty angry over the 'circumcisionistas'.

It's been a long while since I read Revolutionary Biography; I need to pick it back up.


Oh, and the Jeremiah stuff is not my idea -- just reporting what others have argued. I was just blown away by the number of parallels; I wonder how much the mining of Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Zechariah was Paul's influence? I think the only original thought I have had is the possibility of Matthew's genealogy encoding the idea that Mary might have been foreign, but I'm sure someone else has also thought of that before. And that idea was pretty wacky to begin with.
 
Stupid me.

I assumed because these lectures are available through itunes that they were in an mp4 format. It turns out that they are just audio files, so we can convert them into any format. I already own a converter program -- I have a lot of audio tapes of lectures from teh teaching company and I've been recording them as .wav files and then compressing them into mp3 format for a while -- so I've got a project tonight. There are plenty of free compression programs on the net if anyone else wants to do the same.
 
I've started reading Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography by Crossan and it has got me thinking about John the Baptist and if Jesus started as his disciple. Looking at how the Gospels treat John, I believe it's very likely that Jesus began as an apocalyptic follower of John the Baptist.

Crossan states that the Gospels "downplay" John's role in most cases, always going to great lengths to show how John knew he wasn't worthy to untie Jesus' sandals. Finally, in John's Gospel, Jesus isn't even baptized at all. The idea of Jesus being "under" John and needing to be baptized would've been embarrassing to Jesus' followers (argument from embarrassment) so the writers of the Gospels set out to remedy this issue. Crossan points out that John the Baptist was written about by Josephus in Antiquities 18 chapt. 5:2, but there is no mention of him living in the wilderness, the Jordan River, or his head winding up on a platter. (Interesting side note: Crossan shows where Mark got his idea to have John beheaded at the request of a woman. See Livy's (59 BCE to 17 CE) history of Rome book 39:43 here.) John obviously attracted a good deal of people and attention, (enough that Josephus was aware of who he was, years after his death) but what was he preaching? Why was only John killed and not any of his followers? Josephus mentions quite a few "prophets" who led people out into the desert, only for all of them to be killed by the local Roman garrison. Why was John, and John alone, taken prisoner and executed?

Crossan states that John was not trying to gather a huge mass of people outside of town to overthrow a local magistrate, but he purified them and sent them back out of the wilderness. He was forming (and I quote Crossan here),"...a giant system of sanctified individuals, a huge web of apocalyptic expectations, a network of ticking time bombs all over the Jewish homeland. Its magnitude insured a lasting memory, but its diffusion made it both possible and necessary for Antipas to strike precisely at John himself and at John alone".

So Crossan asks, did Jesus pick up John's fallen banner or did he break from John's teachings and begin preaching his own vision?

I have some ideas on the subject but I will continue reading and see what Crossan has to say...
 
I'm reading along with you but spent most of yesterday in bed asleep (cold, flu, something).

There seems to be some of the Kingdom message in Paul though he tends to "apocalyptize" it -- he keeps telling the Thessalonians to love another and share so that they will be awake and ready for the retribution that is to come. I'm thinking that John was a link to the apocalyptic message more than anything else.

Jesus, if we believe the stories as trasmitted, tried to live the Kingdom -- share everything, feed everyone, accept all to table -- instead of just preaching a Kingdom to come. The resurrection/eschatological strain could have been added later.

Makes me wonder. The one message we get through Paul from the pillars is "make sure you feed the hungry" or something like that -- in Galatians -- almost like they didn't care what he taught in addition to the Kingdom message as long as he carried out that Kingdom message.
 
Some of the ties between Jesus and John the Baptist may have been added in after the fact to give legitimacy to Jesus' message (much like the ties between Jesus and the OT prophets). I seem to recall in Matthew (?) Herod commenting on Jesus as a reincarnation of John.

Regarding the "feed the poor" statements from both Jesus and Paul, that seemed to be a tradition among the OT prophets as well. Ezekiel in particular seemed to be extremely upset over the treatment of the misfortunate, and that seemed to be one of the key reasons God was planning the misery of Israel. Maybe Paul saw himself as the last in the line of prophets, now bringing the message to the Gentiles?
 
Regarding the "feed the poor" statements from both Jesus and Paul, that seemed to be a tradition among the OT prophets as well. Ezekiel in particular seemed to be extremely upset over the treatment of the misfortunate, and that seemed to be one of the key reasons God was planning the misery of Israel. Maybe Paul saw himself as the last in the line of prophets, now bringing the message to the Gentiles?


Right. Jesus' message was Jewish to the core -- it fit exactly with the prophetic tradition "I desire mercy not sacrifice". Crossan views it as a radical egalitarian anti-power structure message.

Paul, I think, took the message from Isaiah -- that during the Messianic age the Jews would be the light to the world, the light to the gentiles -- literally. I wonder if he viewed himself as the new Jonah. Only willing.
 
Work has been cutting into my reading time, but I wanted to pass on some links I came acrross:


John Dominic Crossan on Wisconsin Public Radio talking about the book of Revelation and how it has been misinterpreted.

Here he is talking about his book In Search of Paul on NPR.

Bart Ehrman talking about his new book on NPR.

I also came across a very odd book at a used book store. The author's theory is that there was a primitive gospel (Proto-Mark) that underwent 2 revisions (Proto-Mark A and Proto-Mark B). Matthew knew Proto-Mark A, Luke knew Proto-Mark B, and Mark knew and conflated both. It's called Rethinking the Gospel Sources: From Proto-Mark to Mark by Delbert Burkett. It was $3. I'll see how it reads...
 
Right. Jesus' message was Jewish to the core -- it fit exactly with the prophetic tradition "I desire mercy not sacrifice". Crossan views it as a radical egalitarian anti-power structure message.

Paul, I think, took the message from Isaiah -- that during the Messianic age the Jews would be the light to the world, the light to the gentiles -- literally. I wonder if he viewed himself as the new Jonah. Only willing.


I think that likely. I also note that while i agree wholeheartedly tis would have been a completely alien perspective on Paul before the late 70's and EP Sanders - when the last thing stressed about Paul before that was his Judaism. NT Wright is big on this as well as I recall, and i think explicitly mentions an analogy with Jonah too - I'll have a look! Great minds and all that. :)

cj x
 
Rolling the rock away from the tomb....

Some of the ties between Jesus and John the Baptist may have been added in after the fact to give legitimacy to Jesus' message (much like the ties between Jesus and the OT prophets). I seem to recall in Matthew (?) Herod commenting on Jesus as a reincarnation of John.

Well, I believe the author of Matthew includes this in Chapter 14 to foreshadow the passion. Both John and Jesus are arrested, bound, and sentenced by officials who execute them at the request of others, plus each dies like a common criminal. So the telling of this in Matthew is more like a Christological parable.

Paul, I think, took the message from Isaiah -- that during the Messianic age the Jews would be the light to the world, the light to the gentiles -- literally. I wonder if he viewed himself as the new Jonah. Only willing.
I agree. He seemed to view himself along the lines of the OT prophets. The language he uses is similar, if not "borrowed" from the OT itself. As you mentioned before, the parallels are numerous. For example:

"God, the one who set me apart for something special from my mother's womb and called me through his grace, was well pleased to reveal his son to me, so that I might proclaim his good news among the Gentiles." (Galatians 1:15-16)

Compared with:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

This goes hand-in-hand with the "formed me in the womb" and "light to the nations" of Isaiah 49:5-6. I think this also helps to support the theory that Paul figured once the good news had been preached to the entire (known) world, Jesus would return. So, as Hokulele stated, Paul probably viewed himself as the LAST prophet.

Maybe that's why he comes off as high-strung at times...
 
OK, I have a non-Jesus one now. I've been reading Friedman's 'Who Wrote the Bible' and run across the issue of northern vs. southern kingdom in several stories of the tanakh. Here's one that bothers me......

The priest who promotes Jeroboam after the kingdom splits following Solomon's death is Ahijah, who seems to be in Shiloh -- the original location of Samuel. In the Saul story, the name of Ahijah shows up as a priest who is supposed to be the brother of Ichabod (who was Phinehas's son -- Phinehas was one of Eli's sons and Eli and his line are denigrated in the book of Samuel since Samuel takes over from Eli). One of the problems is that Ichabod is born prematurely as word returns that Phinehas has died and his mother cries that there is no hope (more or less the meaning of the name Ichabod -- and, yes, that is why Washington Irving chose that name, I think). There is no prior mention of a brother and the whole point of the earlier story is that no one will carry one the line of Eli.

But, in the middle of the Saul story, we see Ahijah being invoked as the brother of Ichabod, which would have been literally unlikely if not impossible. So, what's it doing there?

There is one other bit that I hadn't known -- according to Friedman, the E source, who would have been the most likely to write a story about Ahijah, never mentions the ark of the covenant. But the Ark suddenly appears in this story too -- even though there is no mention of it leaving Kiriath Jearim (after it moves from Shiloh -- it is stolen by the Philistines and the whole Dagon falling to the ground thing happens, etc. and it ends up for some reason at Kiriath Jearim).

This is in the middle of a whole long scenario that doesn't exactly reflect well on Saul -- not that much does. In fact, Saul is sort of cast like Jephthah because he makes a rash vow that even his son Jonathan, if he has done wrong, will be killed. Of course Jonathan is the one responsible -- he has eaten some honey (in the land of milk and honey) when Saul had rashly told the warriors that they should not eat anything during this particular battle (sacred space and time and all). Jonathan, meanwhile, has virtually single-handedly defeated the Philistines (because he believes).

So, my question is this: do you think it likely that the J source might have written this story to denigrate the Northern Kingdom? Saul was a Benjaminite -- Benjamin being on the border of the Southern and Northern Kingdoms, though more properly in the Northern Kingdom. Or, does this reflect some issue between Jonathan and Saul? Or would it be more likely that the J author might have concocted this sort of story -- making Saul's son Jonathan into a David-like hero to denounce the Northern Kingdom kings (Saul being one of them)?

Or something completely different?
 
OK, I have a non-Jesus one now. I've been reading Friedman's 'Who Wrote the Bible' and run across the issue of northern vs. southern kingdom in several stories of the tanakh. Here's one that bothers me......

The priest who promotes Jeroboam after the kingdom splits following Solomon's death is Ahijah, who seems to be in Shiloh -- the original location of Samuel. In the Saul story, the name of Ahijah shows up as a priest who is supposed to be the brother of Ichabod (who was Phinehas's son -- Phinehas was one of Eli's sons and Eli and his line are denigrated in the book of Samuel since Samuel takes over from Eli). One of the problems is that Ichabod is born prematurely as word returns that Phinehas has died and his mother cries that there is no hope (more or less the meaning of the name Ichabod -- and, yes, that is why Washington Irving chose that name, I think). There is no prior mention of a brother and the whole point of the earlier story is that no one will carry one the line of Eli.

But, in the middle of the Saul story, we see Ahijah being invoked as the brother of Ichabod, which would have been literally unlikely if not impossible. So, what's it doing there?

There is one other bit that I hadn't known -- according to Friedman, the E source, who would have been the most likely to write a story about Ahijah, never mentions the ark of the covenant. But the Ark suddenly appears in this story too -- even though there is no mention of it leaving Kiriath Jearim (after it moves from Shiloh -- it is stolen by the Philistines and the whole Dagon falling to the ground thing happens, etc. and it ends up for some reason at Kiriath Jearim).

This is in the middle of a whole long scenario that doesn't exactly reflect well on Saul -- not that much does. In fact, Saul is sort of cast like Jephthah because he makes a rash vow that even his son Jonathan, if he has done wrong, will be killed. Of course Jonathan is the one responsible -- he has eaten some honey (in the land of milk and honey) when Saul had rashly told the warriors that they should not eat anything during this particular battle (sacred space and time and all). Jonathan, meanwhile, has virtually single-handedly defeated the Philistines (because he believes).

So, my question is this: do you think it likely that the J source might have written this story to denigrate the Northern Kingdom? Saul was a Benjaminite -- Benjamin being on the border of the Southern and Northern Kingdoms, though more properly in the Northern Kingdom. Or, does this reflect some issue between Jonathan and Saul? Or would it be more likely that the J author might have concocted this sort of story -- making Saul's son Jonathan into a David-like hero to denounce the Northern Kingdom kings (Saul being one of them)?

Or something completely different?

Oddly enough, I had recently picked up a book titled How to Read the Jewish Bible by Marc Zvi Brettler. I haven't really started it yet, but as I quickly glanced at the chapter on Samuel, I noticed the author saying the main goal of the editors was to delegitimate Saul as the king and to legitimate David as Saul's proper successor. As soon as I have I chance (real life has been rather busy lately) I'll read the text and get back to you. I also remember reading somewhere about how parts of the OT were "Davidic propaganda" but off-hand I can't recall the book or author...
 
The really weird thing about Samuel is that it looks like a complete mishmash from different authors. There seems to be a pro-Samuel, anti-Saul group, but there are also stories that make Saul look good. Most of the stories denigrate him at the expense of someone else -- sometimes David, sometimes Jonathan, etc. -- or just denigrate him (he's chosen by lot to be king but he's hiding behind the luggage?).

I don't know how to pick out when the Deuteronomist is writing. A lot of these stories might be from that source -- which was clearly pro-Davidic. Maybe Jonathan is a stand-in for David (Jonathan trusts God) while Saul is associated with this group of discredited priests?
 
The really weird thing about Samuel is that it looks like a complete mishmash from different authors. There seems to be a pro-Samuel, anti-Saul group, but there are also stories that make Saul look good. Most of the stories denigrate him at the expense of someone else -- sometimes David, sometimes Jonathan, etc. -- or just denigrate him (he's chosen by lot to be king but he's hiding behind the luggage?).

I don't know how to pick out when the Deuteronomist is writing. A lot of these stories might be from that source -- which was clearly pro-Davidic. Maybe Jonathan is a stand-in for David (Jonathan trusts God) while Saul is associated with this group of discredited priests?

The Oxford Annotated Bible points out examples of the Deuteronomist style in 1 Samuel 8:8, 8:12, and that chapter 12 is basically a Deuteronomistic composition. I'm trying to track down a book by P. K. McCarter that supposedly lists the Deuteronomistic additions of Samuel 1 & 2.

From what I've read so far, scholars are kind of split when trying to decide if the antimonarchial parts were added later or, as some contend, those verse were first and the pro-monarchial verses were the additions.

Yeah, obviously, Samuel is a few stories mashed together. Saul is chosen to be king three times with three different stories. So you could have the J source, E source, and Deuteronomistic additions all heaped together.

Interesting side notes: Compare 1 Samuel 9:21 with Judges 6:15. Also many scholars feel that 1 Samuel 2:1-10 "The Song of Hannah" was the model for Luke 1:46-55. Plus, the story of Samuel's birth was probably the story of Saul's birth. There is repeated wordplay of Saul's name in 1 Samuel chapter 1, as it sounds like the Hebrew verb for "ask, partition" so verses 17, 20, 27 and 28 are puns on Saul's name. (Verse 28 works because "He is given" is exactly the same as Saul's name in Hebrew ("sha'ul") and could be translated "he is Saul to the Lord.") So some scholars feel the birth story of Samuel is a combination of Shiloh/Eli traditions with the nazirite/Saul traditions.
 

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