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Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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If I may expand on the worthy point made by the Unconquered Sun ...
Indeed Equations need an context & interpretation, but ... One must start with the equation, not with the words. So discussions like the ones we commonly have on forums like this one never amount to much because it's all words. Worse, most of the words are bluster, feint, assertion, insult & etc., and few of the words have any depth of character.

If in fact the standard cosmological model is "woo" (I don't know for sure what "woo" is supposed to be, but I gather from context & interpretation that it is not a sign of respect & admiration), then one should be able to show how the equations fail to produce model universes that are consistent with the observations of the One True Universe (shall we say Cosmos Invictus?).

Absent this truly scientific approach, all of this long discussion really only amounts to an interesting diversion from the hum-drum existence of everyday life. Of course, no one who actually had an "everyday life" would be here doing this, but I digress ...

That might be a useful approach is inflation had not been postdicted all alone, and then modified a million times to fit what it failed to actually "predict". The whole thing was "made to order" from human imagination starting with Guth. It's been specifically modified to make it fit everything it failed to initially predict. The universe wasn't slowing down as "predicted", so they tossed in some "dark energy" to fill the gaps. It doesn't explain those "dark flows" so someone will come along and postdict another 'fit' with observation sooner or later.
 
Gibberish. If EM fields really behaved that way (which they don't) they wouldn't "replace" DE, they could be DE. You still haven't managed to get it through your head that "DE" is just a name for whatever energy is causing the rate of expansion to increase. As for that suddenly turning Lambda-CDM into PC/EU, that's too stupid to even reply to.

Your statements are self conflicted. If DE is just a name for that energy, and EM fields can be simply inserted into that variable, your theory just became EU theory with an supernatural inflation component. If you don't know what DE actually is, how did you rule out EM fields?

My favorite part of all this is how I've pointed out several times what a blatant schizophrenic you're being here

You seem to rely heavily on stuffing your arguments with *personal* insults. I never had much respect for that type of behavior.

Keep arguing with yourself.... you earlier claimed it had already been falsified. Then you said it couldn't be falsified. Then you said it had already been falsified. And throughout you have refused to respond to all the specific falsifiable predictions it has made that have been brought up, or back up any of your wrong claims that it never predicted anything.

Either you are intentionally being coy, or you simply refuse to acknowledge my points. Inflation theory could have easily been "falsified' by the observation of "acceleration" which it *completely* failed to "predict". Instead, the theory was stuffed with more metaphysics. I showed you how that same variable can be replaced with a known force of nature, and it demonstrates that your own theory is nothing but a PC/EU theory with a supernatural side kick.

You're a troll, and worse - a boring and repetitive one. That's the cardinal sin of trolls.

I tried a different approach. I tried to get you or DRD to actually *explain* your theory from start to finish and identify "causes" of things for us, but you simply refuse to do so. How big was your object before expansion? How did it expand? What *caused* it to expand? Where did that come from? Why didn't it get crushed back together instantly by gravity? Where does DE come from?

Trolls tend to avoid *specific* questions.
 
Inflation invictus

Let us examine the words. First I say ...
It seems to me that Mozina has an extremely restrictive view of how science should be done: "Anything that cannot be done in a controlled laboratory experiment is not science" certainly seems to be his fundamental view of how science should be done.
To which the worthy adversary responds ...
That is actually more of a strawman than an accurate reflection of my statements.
OK, "strawman": ... an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. Of course I can only guess from the words, which is why I say it "seems" to me, but we now have it explicitly from the source that it is a misrepresentation of his position to declare that he accepts only controlled laboratory experiments as a criterion for determining what is or is not scientific. Fair enough.

So I go on ...

Inflation is a testable hypothesis. ...
To which my worthy adversary responds (emphasis is mine) ...
False. It's gone now, so no experiment on Earth will ever verify it, and nothing could possibly falsify it. All it's "predictions" were all postdictions, and every "failure" just results on a new inflation model. It's the ultimate in unfalsifiable theories.
Well, the strawman rises like a phoenix from the fire, but this time it's not me who is saying it. By your own words to declare that you will accept only an Earth bound, controlled laboratory experiment to determine the scientific validity of inflation. So you now explicitly adopt the strawman of yourself as yourself?

But the remainder of my own statement from above continued ...

Your assertion to the contrary, as an excuse for declaring it unscientific is a factually false statement. See, i.e., Mikheeva, 2008; Lesgourgues & Valkenburg, 2007; Alabidi & Lyth, 2006; Lidsey & Seery, 2006 ... Liddle, 1999.
So I provide you with explicit and specific references to the testability of the inflation hypothesis, in keeping with your own declared source for the scientific method ...
Note that the necessity of experiment also implies that a theory must be testable. Theories which cannot be tested, because, for instance, they have no observable ramifications (such as, a particle whose characteristics make it unobservable), do not qualify as scientific theories.
You ignore the references as if they did not even exist, and simply declare your hard position that an Earth bound laboratory experiment is an absolute requirement. But I note for the record that your own declared source for your own interpretation of the scientific method does not say what you say it says. It requires testability, but it does not require testability only in an Earth bound laboratory experiment.

I can only conclude from this that you have successfully misrepresented yourself. I expect you will now post a message taking yourself to task severely for this egregious strawman argument?

I stand by what I said, until there is a better reason than this to change my mind: Inflation is a testable hypothesis. That is a solid and immutable fact that no amount of squirming can escape. Indeed, not only is it testable, it has been tested, and it has thus far passed the tests.
 
Which *specific* line of math was wrong? Handwaves will not be accepted.

Eq. 15 is wrong. Probably some of the preceding equations are too, but that's enough.

One very simple way to see that is to set H=0, a=1 (i.e. do E&M in flat space). Then the energy density is simply E^2 + B^2, but that's not at all what eq. 15 says. It's also nonsense for lambda to appear there - lambda is a non-dynamical Lagrange multiplier according to (10), and it cancels out of the Hamiltonian density.
 
To help you in your quest for evidence for the claim that ""every one of its current so called "predictions" are actually all postdicted from observation", I suggect that you research sol's list:

A near-perfect blackbody spectrum for CMB photons
A nearly scale-invariant spectrum of primordial density perturbations
http://www.physorg.com/news107109720.html
Fail!

A particular spectrum for the galaxy and galaxy cluster distribution
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080923-dark-flows.html
Fail.
 
Your statements are self conflicted. If DE is just a name for that energy, and EM fields can be simply inserted into that variable

They cannot.

If you don't know what DE actually is, how did you rule out EM fields?

Because we know what DE does, and EM fields don't do that.

Trolls tend to avoid *specific* questions.

You got that right, at least.
 
Unlike inflation, a neutron shows up in a real experiment, as does a quark. I therefore have no problem allowing you to "scale" these theories to size and create stars with them if you like. I realize you can't build them here on Earth, and so it's simply a scaling factor.

You so silly and you just showed that you don't understand the model of quraks at all, I just know enough to get in trouble.

A 'quark' is a perfect example of a 'metaphysical concept'!

You can never have an isolated quark, ever, you can not have a lone quarks, you can have quark pairs and quark trios, but never a lone quark!

How do they know that quarks exist?

they don't! :)

The only thing 'true' about quarks is that they produce a model and the data that is observed matches the model.

But by your standard Gell-Mann 'postdicted' quarks. they are a total abstracted model, they can never be directly obserevd!

You so funny. :)

And BTW, a 'nuetron' does not show up in the lab, an observation of data that is coherent and consistent with the theory/model/abstraceted/metaphysic of a nuetron is observed.

You just don't get it,

I place my finger in the sky and whoosha I am at the moon. (Humor again, not sarcasm, many people don't get this point. There are NO Laws of Nature, theer are theories of the way that reality appears to behave. Gravity does not exist, it is a model for what we observe.)

You can not directly observe a nuetron!
 
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It seems to me that Mozina has an extremely restrictive view of how science should be done: "Anything that cannot be done in a controlled laboratory experiment is not science" certainly seems to be his fundamental view of how science should be done.

Here are your original statements. You can't produce a complete star in a controlled laboratory. I'm not calling any solar theory "woo" just because you can't produce it here on Earth in a lab. Likewise I have no problem allowing you to scale any known force/curvature of nature to whatever size you wish. I am not requiring that all things be created in a lab. I am however going to require a "proof of concept", a "qualification" of some sort before I start letting slap math formulas to faeries and point at the sky and claiming "faeries did it and here's the math to prove it!"

I'm not asking for the moon or asking for anything special. I'm asking you to demonstrate that your belief in inflation is not a pure act of faith and postdicted math formula.
 
You so silly and you just showed that you don't understand the model of quraks at all, I just know enough to get in trouble.

A 'quark' is a perfect example of a 'metaphysical concept'!

You can never have an isolated quark, ever, you can not have a lone quarks, you can have quark pairs and quark trios, but never a lone quark!

How do they know that quarks exist?

they don't! :)

The only thing 'true' about quarks is that they produce a model and the data that is observed matches the model.

The data that matches the models comes from *CONTROLLED EXPERIMENTATION*! They can check out their models *in a lab* in controlled experiments. Whether they bond in pairs, trios, or some other configuration is irrelevant. Quarks and neutrons, neutrinos, protons, electrons, etc aren't shy around the lab like inflation and they exist in nature.
 
Eq. 15 is wrong. Probably some of the preceding equations are too, but that's enough.

One very simple way to see that is to set H=0, a=1 (i.e. do E&M in flat space). Then the energy density is simply E^2 + B^2, but that's not at all what eq. 15 says. It's also nonsense for lambda to appear there - lambda is a non-dynamical Lagrange multiplier according to (10), and it cancels out of the Hamiltonian density.
Thank you for being specific for a change. I'll have to go back and check it out.
 
That evidently doesn't apply to cosmology. If it did, a heliocentric solar system would never have replaced an earth centered one, an expanding universe would never have replaced a static one, etc. Presumably Kuhn has some more fundamental kinds of paradigms in mind - but even then I don't really agree. What works in the simplest and easiest way wins. What fails to work, loses and disappears into history books.

I think the point there is that one paradigm is overturned by a new one, and they don't have very much in common. Almost coup de tat, take no prisoners.
Well that is the nature of revolution.

If you accept the existence of an external reality that follows logical rules then you must accept that some models are closer to that and some are farther away. Those that are closer work better, and they succeed.

Survival of the fittest is a good rule.
 
A nearly scale-invariant spectrum of primordial density perturbations
http://www.physorg.com/news107109720.html

“Not only has no one ever found a void this big, but we never even expected to find one this size,” said Lawrence Rudnick of the University of Minnesota astronomy professor. Rudnick, along with grad student Shea Brown and associate professor Liliya Williams, also of the University of Minnesota, reported their findings in a paper accepted for publication in the Astrophysical Journal.

Astronomers have known for years that, on large scales, the Universe has voids largely empty of matter. However, most of these voids are much smaller than the one found by Rudnick and his colleagues. In addition, the number of discovered voids decreases as the size increases.

“What we’ve found is not normal, based on either observational studies or on computer simulations of the large-scale evolution of the Universe,” Williams said.

The homogeneous layout of matter is the *only* real thing about inflation theory that might actually be "testable" in any sort of observation. It *FAILED* miserably. Now what? Do we falsify inflation now, or just fudge the numbers some more?
 
If I may expand on the worthy point made by the Unconquered Sun ...
Indeed Equations need an context & interpretation, but ... One must start with the equation, not with the words.

The real problem here is that you *should* have started with real empirical physics, not a postdicted mathematical equation.
 
The real problem here is that you *should* have started with real empirical physics, not a postdicted mathematical equation.
Quick question:

Is there any "real empirical physics" That is entirely devoid of numbers? of measurements?

In today's physics labs there are many very impressive gadgets (instruments, detectors, and so on). Presumably you agree that these devices are an essential part of doing "real empirical physics" (do you?). To what extent would you say that the design and construction of these started "real empirical physics, not a postdicted mathematical equation" (or many such equations)?
 
http://www.physorg.com/news107109720.html



The homogeneous layout of matter is the *only* real thing about inflation theory that might actually be "testable" in any sort of observation. It *FAILED* miserably. Now what? Do we falsify inflation now, or just fudge the numbers some more?
The link is nothing to do with "A nearly scale-invariant spectrum of primordial density perturbations"
 
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The homogeneous layout of matter is the *only* real thing about inflation theory that might actually be "testable" in any sort of observation. It *FAILED* miserably. Now what? Do we falsify inflation now, or just fudge the numbers some more?
The almost homogeneous layout of matter is one of the predictions of inflation and has "SUCCEEDED" happily. Now what - we accept inflation as a scientific theory.
 
http://www.physorg.com/news107109720.html



The homogeneous layout of matter is the *only* real thing about inflation theory that might actually be "testable" in any sort of observation. It *FAILED* miserably. Now what? Do we falsify inflation now, or just fudge the numbers some more?
It was certainly an interesting discovery, and as you might expect, it lead to quite a few papers (>40 cite Rudnick et al.'s ApJ paper, according to ADS).

The subsequent, independent, research seems to agree that there's *something* interesting there, but the PR you quote is rather over the top.

In any case, I'm curious to know why you seem to uncritically accept anything like this that you read that you conclude is somehow a falsification of some part of contemporary concordance cosmological models ("dark flows" is another example), and equally uncritically accept anything that you think hints at a cosmic role for "EM fields" (especially if you think it can provide an alternative explanation to something you don't like about contemporary cosmological models).

Surely, to be consistent, you should be insisting that
a) all these astronomical observations and theoretical papers be independently verified first
b) those that rely upon stuff that hasn't been tested, in controlled experiments, on Earth (or perhaps in near Earth orbit), should be rejected out of hand.

Shouldn't you?

I appreciate that you are OK with 'scaling by size', but you didn't answer my questions on whether you're OK with scaling by any other attribute, how you go about determining the limits of any scaling (10 Mpc? 100 Mpc? 1 Gpc? 10 Gpc? 100 Gpc??), and how you get from what's confirmed as 'existing in nature' from controlled experiments in the lab (neutrons, for example) to dramatic extrapolations of such (neutron stars, for example).

May I ask that you have a go at answering my questions this time?
 
God loves us and created the physical universe for us. :) There, I assigned an unfalsifiable "quality" to it. That is *exactly* the kind of thing you are doing with inflation by the way.
Huh? I already said "Goddidit" was unfalsifiable.

Why shouldn't it be connected to events here in this solar system?
I didn't say it shouldn't be connected, I said it didn't have to be useful. Whether its connected or not is irrelevant, the point is "small scale" astrophysics has no real effect on the structure of the universe as a whole. Much like small scale quantum physics has no real effect on structural engineering.

I can experiment and *test* the laws of thermodynamics.
Good for you. Doesn't stop them being a pain in the arse from time to time.

I observe that others love God and God loves us so obviously Goddidit. It's a "natural experiment" by the way. :)
How did you observe that God loves us?

That paper says otherwise. It suggests DE can be replaced with any vector field, and the author demonstrated it works with EM fields. It means Lambda theory is actually a PC/EU theory with an unfalsifiable inflation deity.
The paper is wrong.
 
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