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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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DOC said:
You call it fantasy; Thomas Arnold of Oxford calls it history, and Dr. Simon Greenleaf of Harvard calls it legal evidence.
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Again so what?

So somehow they've magic Jesus into existence by their opinion alone? Wow, aren't these people powerful...in fact they're more powerful than god.

Still waiting for you to produce this ultra compelling "evidence".
 
babbits said:
Oh, so it only applies to Christians? If a Christian is ready to die for his faith, that proves that his faith is true? But if a Muslim (or a Shinto, or a member of any other faith) is ready to die for his faith, that doesn't prove that his faith is true?
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Heh, we already covered this logical fail of DOC's months ago.

Hokulele said:
Right. Since I now have a bit of time on my hands, let's take a look at one example of Geisler's oh-so-stellar reasoning. From DOC's OP:

DOC's OP said:
Reason #10

The New Testament Writers Abandoned Their Long Held Sacred Beliefs and Practices, Adopted New Ones, And Did Not Deny Their Testimony Under Persecution Or Threat Of Death
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Ladies and gentlemen, here is Geisler's reasoning to support why this is true and all of the Muslim/Heaven's Gate/kamikaze martyrs do not count.

Geisler's book from Ichneumonwasp's link said:
What does martyrdom prove? Does it prove Islam is true too?

Not at all. There are some similarities, but there's one critical difference between the New Testament martyrs and those of today. One similarity shared by all martyrs is sincerity. Whether you're talking about Christians, Muslims, kamikaze pilots, or suicidal cult followers, everyone agrees that martyrs sincerely believe in their cause. But the critical difference is that the New Testament Christian martyrs had more than sincerity - they had evidence that the Resurrection was true. Why? Because the New Testament Christian martyrs were eyewitnesses of the Resurrected Christ. They knew the Resurrection was true and not a lie because they verified it with their own senses.
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Let's see. What was that definition of circular reasoning again?
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DOC said:
Professor Thomas Arnold
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<sigh> You think it's been long enough since you last appealed to this authority that you think we've forgotten about what was said last time?

Interesting you should mention him, though, since he is an example of someone who existed, and who also appears as a character in a work of fiction. By your logic, though, everything written about him in Tom Brown's Schooldays really happened.
 
X said:
On a serious note, what I think DOC is trying to say is that the willingness of early Christians to die for their beliefs is evidence that Christianity is true. Because Christians were persecuted. Therefore the fact that people became Christians despite the persecution is evidence that Christianity is true.
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Strawman.

Why don't you let my posts do the talking instead of thinking for me. I never said "the willingness of early Christians to die for their beliefs is evidence that Christianity is true." One way to prevent this strawman is to respond directly to a quote of mine.
 
Hokulele said:
Suggesting that the martyrdom of various Christians in any way improved the chances that the resurrection really happened.
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Let's put it this way. I'm "more confident" the resurrection is true because these events occurred --

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd in 60 A.D.
* James the Just, beaten to death with a club after being crucified and stoned.
* Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
* Saint Mark was dragged in the streets until his death
* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
* Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome.
* Saint Jude was crucified.
* Saint Bartholomew flayed alive and crucified.
* Thomas the Apostle was killed with a spear.
* Luke the Evangelist was hung.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.

(Note: John the Evangelist according to legend was cooked in boiling hot oil but survived. He was the only one of the original twelve Apostles who was not martyred).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

-- than I would be if the above events never happened to the formerly uncertain, cowardly apostles.
 
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DOC said:
Let's put it this way. I'm "more confident" the resurrection is true because these events occurred --

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd in 60 A.D.
* James the Just, beaten to death with a club after being crucified and stoned.
* Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
* Saint Mark was dragged in the streets until his death
* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
* Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome.
* Saint Jude was crucified.
* Saint Bartholomew flayed alive and crucified.
* Thomas the Apostle was killed with a spear.
* Luke the Evangelist was hung.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.

(Note: John the Evangelist according to legend was cooked in boiling hot oil but survived. He was the only one of the original twelve Apostles who was not martyred).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

-- than I would be if the above events never happened to the formerly uncertain, cowardly apostles.
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Which is evidence that you are gullible more than it is evidence that the laws of physics were bent for some dead dude.

DOC said:
Post the exact quote and page number.
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I already did. I even linked back to that quote not more than 10 posts ago.
 
DOC said:
So then I would assume it is your position that the black civil rights activists -- the Reverend Martin Luther King, the Reverend Ralph Abernathy, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, and the Reverend Al Sharpton (not to mention President Obama) were wrong to embrace Christianity.
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joobz said:
Doesn't matter what they say. It's what's in the bible that counts.
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That's true, that's why I believe the Reverend Martin Luther King, the Reverend Ralph Abernathy, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, and the Reverend Al Sharpton (not to mention President Obama) all embrace Christianity.

If you have evidence that Jesus didn't condone slavery, present it.

I'm sure you could provide the chapter and verse
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Love your neighbor as yourself... Love your enemy... And if the Bible condones slavery why did some of the 1st century slaves embrace Christianity?

And where exactly did Jesus condone slavery as you say?
 
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DOC said:
Love your neighbor as yourself... Love your enemy... And if the Bible condones slavery why did some of the 1st century slaves embrace Christianity?

And where exactly did Jesus condone slavery as you say?
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Strawman.

The Old Testament clearly permits the keeping of slaves. Jesus nowhere speaks against this, nor against current slave owning despite some clear opportunities to do so.

Or does the Old Testament not form part of your bible?
 
zooterkin said:
Strawman.

The Old Testament clearly permits the keeping of slaves. Jesus nowhere speaks against this, nor against current slave owning despite some clear opportunities to do so.

Or does the Old Testament not form part of your bible?
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So are you saying that the efforts of Christains had nothing to do with the eventual ending of slavery?
 
DOC said:
Let's put it this way. I'm "more confident" the resurrection is true because these events occurred --

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd in 60 A.D.
* James the Just, beaten to death with a club after being crucified and stoned.
* Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
* Saint Mark was dragged in the streets until his death
* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
* Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome.
* Saint Jude was crucified.
* Saint Bartholomew flayed alive and crucified.
* Thomas the Apostle was killed with a spear.
* Luke the Evangelist was hung.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.

(Note: John the Evangelist according to legend was cooked in boiling hot oil but survived. He was the only one of the original twelve Apostles who was not martyred).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

-- than I would be if the above events never happened to the formerly uncertain, cowardly apostles.
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Hooray! I knew if I waited patiently enough the parade would come around again!
 
Just popping by to see if any of the "evidence" mentioned in the thread title has materialised yet.
 
DOC said:
That's true, that's why I believe the Reverend Martin Luther King, the Reverend Ralph Abernathy, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, and the Reverend Al Sharpton (not to mention President Obama) all embrace Christianity.
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Then why don't you read the bible?

DOC said:
Love your neighbor as yourself... Love your enemy... And if the Bible condones slavery why did some of the 1st century slaves embrace Christianity?
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Loving people and keeping slaves are not mutually exclusive.
DOC said:
And where exactly did Jesus condone slavery as you say?
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Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1 all give rules on how one should treat slaves. This is part of the jewish law.

Jesus gives tacit approval of these laws when he says (quite clearly), "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished"
Matthew 5:17-18



Finally,
Jesus gave the parable of the Talents, the parable of the wicked servant and the parable of the good servant. These stories all use slaves (called servants, but they are owed, bought and sold, which is slavery). Never in these stories does Jesus say, "Slavery is bad."
 
DOC said:
Post the exact quote and page number.
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Oh DOC, here's the link and quote:
What does martyrdom prove? Does it prove Islam is true too?

Not at all. There are some similarities, but there's one critical difference between the New Testament martyrs and those of today. One similarity shared by all martyrs is sincerity. Whether you're talking about Christians, Muslims, kamikaze pilots, or suicidal cult followers, everyone agrees that martyrs sincerely believe in their cause. But the critical difference is that the New Testament Christian martyrs had more than sincerity - they had evidence that the Resurrection was true. Why? Because the New Testament Christian martyrs were eyewitnesses of the Resurrected Christ. They knew the Resurrection was true and not a lie because they verified it with their own senses.
Click to expand...

I'm happy to provide this information. I think the more people who read the poor logic that Geisler uses, the more people who won't be convinced by it.
 
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