Universal Health Care in the US. Yea or Nea?

[Darat]

I'm not expecting perfection. I would be happy if we could cut costs down to the per capita average.

...snip...

Well if you look around the world there are plenty of health care systems that cost less per capita than your current state run health system and also provide better health outcomes for the citizens in those country, you could look at adopting or adapting one of those?

Unfortunately most are universal health systems.....

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

More likely if you follow post 517.

More likely than ANY alternative? Can you say that is a fact if we haven't even tried fixing the system we have in place?

 

[Francesca R]

More likely than your empty list of alternative solutions. "Perfection" is the arch enemy of "better" for you, it seems.

 

[Darat]

Why do you think there have never been attempts to fix it?

 

[Lonewulf]

Somewhere our lines got crossed. I'm talking about the situation with a co-worker who is cheating our system for free medical care by claiming she isn't married. I suggested that if someone would just check for a marriage lic. they could see she is obviously lying and that her and her husband can afford it

Yeah, okay. I figured something must have gone terribly wrong here.

Though I would say that you can't say that, in general, if someone is married they can necessarily afford any kind of insurance.

Either way, I don't believe that the "moochers" deserve to die, and should be kicked to the curb. I support the Universal Health Care system, and I haven't been offered any efficient alternatives.

Taking me seriously is something even I avoid.

Heh.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Well if you look around the world there are plenty of health care systems that cost less per capita than your current state run health system and also provide better health outcomes for the citizens in those country, you could look at adopting or adapting one of those?

Unfortunately most are universal health systems....

Or I could just find out whats wrong here and fix it. Either way.

Another thing I should say is, I'm not completely ignoring what uni-health has managed to do for other countries. I would just prefer to avoid going that route if we can find a better way that fits in with my morals and work ethic.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

empty list of alternative solutions

Fixing our system isn't a solution? Or are you ignoring that as a possibility.

 

[Rolfe]

I contribute though. Does everyone contribute to the system you are proposing?

In a universal system, everyone who has paid taxes at any point has contributed something. The more tax they have paid, the more they have contributed - and if the tax system is doing its job, that will be because they were making more money. There may be those who have never paid any tax. These are likely to be the very people who can't possibly pay for themselves, as they have never had any income high enough to tax.

I'm sure you have such people in the US too. What do you do about them? Do you let them die of their illness, or do you let them access the publicly-funded system even though they've never contributed?

I just don't see how these people are any different a problem in the US system compared to a universal-access one.

What I have a problem with is the non-contributers who keep putting their hand in my cookie jar.

So, back to these people who don't pay tax. Either because they have no income to tax, or because they cheat their taxes.

I just don't see why the fact that there are some people who cheat the system (and as you'll see above, the evidence from those who study these matters confirms that these people are exceedingly difficult or impossible to eradicate) would mean that you reject the entire concept of universal healthcare out of hand, as you seem to be doing, in spite of all the advantages of economy, value for money and effectiveness that have been pointed out numerous times.

Rolfe.

 

[volatile]

Or I could just find out whats wrong here and fix it. Either way.

Another thing I should say is, I'm not completely ignoring what uni-health has managed to do for other countries. I would just prefer to avoid going that route if we can find a better way that fits in with my morals and work ethic.

Do you not think that if it turns out you have a moral system that advocates that poor, needly and desperate people die, and that encourages the exact type of behaviour you claim to abhor, and that costs you more money doing it, that you should perhaos investigate another moral system?

Perhaps you should consider that you might be wrong? It's obvious now that you've never even encoutered the facts on this issue before, so unable are you to process them, let alone rebutt them.

 

[Francesca R]

Fixing our system isn't a solution? Or are you ignoring that as a possibility.

I must have missed your fix. I haven't followed all of this. What is it?

 

[Toke]

Either way, I don't believe that the "moochers" deserve to die, and should be kicked to the curb. I support the Universal Health Care system, and I haven't been offered any efficient alternatives.

There is also a problem if children are involved.

I prefer if all adults have had good nutrition and education as kids, among other things it makes them more likely to be productive taxpaying citizents.
Guess that is the reason many countries have some form of public child support.
And it is there for the children whether the parents are "moochers" or not.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

So, back to these people who don't pay tax. Either because they have no income to tax, or because they cheat their taxes.

I just don't see why the fact that there are some people who cheat the system (and as you'll see above, the evidence from those who study these matters confirms that these people are exceedingly difficult or impossible to eradicate) would mean that you reject the entire concept of universal healthcare out of hand, as you seem to be doing, in spite of all the advantages of economy, value for money and effectiveness that have been pointed out numerous times.

I'm not talking about the people who can't contribute. I'm talking about the people who can but don't. These people are way too common and would rather get free medical care and rims for their car instead of paying into the system they constantly take from.

Just think what would happen to the uni-health system if more people start just taking and not contributing.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

I must have missed your fix. I haven't followed all of this. What is it?

Streamline our records, lower spending on all the admin costs, stop giving illegals free care, get rid of friv suits against docs, etc....
We can just start with the basics. Find out exactly what we are spending too much money on and see what we can or can't do to fix it.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Do you not think that if it turns out you have a moral system that advocates that poor, needly and desperate people die, and that encourages the exact type of behaviour you claim to abhor, and that costs you more money doing it, that you should perhaos investigate another moral system?

My morals don't advocate that.

I've never said I will turn down the needy or desperate. Just so long as they contribute if they can.

 

[Cainkane1]

I wonder if a government funded health care program wouldn't be better if health care insurance was provided to unemployed individuals and their family based on their ability to pay? I've gone through periods in my life where I was without a job for several months without insurance with no unemployment benefits and having access to some sort of aid would have been very comforting.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

I wonder if a government funded health care program wouldn't be better if health care insurance was provided to unemployed individuals and their family based on their ability to pay? I've gone through periods in my life where I was without a job for several months without insurance with no unemployment benefits and having access to some sort of aid would have been very comforting.

We have a system in San Antonio like that. Its called Carelink and it's a pretty good program.

 

[Toke]

Just think what would happen to the uni-health system if more people start just taking and not contributing.

That is easy, The exiceman* would show up.
(or IRS would just withhold part of your pay at the employer)


*spelling?

 

[Rolfe]

.... but the insurance companies make a gajillion dollars a year.

I had another post about something else written, but the database swallowed it. So, just this quickie for now.

Hold that thought. "The insurance companies make a gajillion dollars a year." Yes, they do. And who do they make it from? You, sir. And what do you get for your money?

Nothing.

OK, that's not quite true. You get administration of the shared-risk system you have chosen to buy into, and some disbursement if you require to call on the common fund. All the while with the insurance company, which is after all in the business to make money, trying its damnedest to minimise the amount it pays out on your policy.

But the operating costs and the profits of the insurance companies are so much money up in flames, compared to a universal system. There (or at least in the one I'm used to, other people's mileage may vary) the tax system takes care of the collection of the premiums, and the money is then handed over to the universal healthcare provider to make the best use of it that it can. With the goal of meeting as much of the healthcare needs of the citizens as possible.

Yes, some administrators still get paid. Healthcare workers still get paid. Hospitals still get built. Drugs still get bought. And so on. But all the money you guys waste on insurance company overheads and profits, well, our actual healthcare service gets that.

Which is one of the reasons we can provide universal coverage at about the same cost as you pay to get Medicare/Medicaid.

I really wish you would stop for a bit with this peripheral objection to fraudulent non-contributors benefiting from the system - these people will do that in any system - and actually look at the advantages of a different way of doing it.

Rolfe.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

and actually look at the advantages of a different way of doing it.

I totally see the benefits.

The forum is running slow for me. I also have to be at work like 4 minutes ago. It's been awesome learning from you guys/gals and I look forward to getting off work and continuing to get schooled. Until then, Peace Out JREF!

 

[Earthborn]

Just think what would happen to the uni-health system if more people start just taking and not contributing.

Under a universal healthcare system (whether financed through taxes or insurance, makes no difference) it is illegal not to contribute. If you don't like moochers, you should be in favour of universal healthcare.

What would happen in a system that does allow people to take and not contribute? You get the American system.