Homoeopathy article from Penn State

[ElMondoHummus]

So they used salt and cyclodextrin, both of which are water soluable? All right. Then clumping would have indeed been something strange and new... had it been replicated. But as skeptigirl points out, the lack of such confirmation is pretty damn telling.

Now, I'll note that the various forms of cyclodextrin (it's not a single molecule; rather, it's a class of cyclic oligosaccharides i.e. rings of sugar) have both a hydrophilic exterior (thus giving it water solubility) and a less hydrophilic interior which can house hydrophobic compounds. So if aggregation did occur in an experiment using cyclodextrin, I'd immediately want to know if there was a contaminant present that could have been picked up by those sugar rings (or present with them from the beginning) which could have led to such aggregation. Until that's ruled out via replication of the experiment with known pure water and known uncontaminated cyclodextrin, I'm not ready to accept the conclusions of the original experiement as demonstrating clumping of otherwise soluble molecules. The result has to be replicated, and other possibilities - such as a hydrophobic molecule encircled by the cyclodextrin - must be eliminated before such a thesis carries any weight.

 

[meow]

(skeptigirl)jesus christ, settle down. the korean article really only illustrates one thing, and that is that some process starts but it only can start in a polar solution as opposed to nonpolar. they showed that when the same thing was done using a nonpolar liquid nothing happened.

focus in on the Physica A thermoluminescence study by nobel prize winning dr rey.

pay the man his million!


meow

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, meow, the Korean study illustrates your lack of understanding of how to interpret research results.

 

[meow]

If I were posting knowledge I gathered from my crystal ball, meow, you would have more of a case. But since I post instead, heavily supported positions with citations people can investigate the sources of information for themselves, you have no case.

pretty absurd argument. 1st of all things in the medical field continually change and in most cases they improve. often they look back in horror at the way things were done.

it will be no different 30 40 50 years from now.

by your logic you are saying that the way things are being done right now is the perfect way, the only way, and the way it will be done forever.

that's not the case.

millions are very much dissatisfied, they are suffering horribly and they have a right to seek other methods.

yes, i agree, most alt med is rubbish, but some things work.

at last count there were something like 75,000 european medical doctors who used homeopathy in their practice, most of them in germany and france. maybe there is something to it. i dont know, but i'm not going to take that choice away from people.

are you smarter than those doctors?

 

[Mashuna]

pretty absurd argument. 1st of all things in the medical field continually change and in most cases they improve. often they look back in horror at the way things were done.

it will be no different 30 40 50 years from now.

Yes, the medical field does improve and change. On the other hand, homoeopathy has been around for a couple of hundred years, hasn't improved or changed, but still manages to fulfil its main aim, to make money out of people.

 

[meow]

well aint this interesting, Penn State professors may be on to something.

pay these men their million!

anyone know anything about this study?


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17678814

Preliminary data obtained using Raman and Ultra-Violet-Visible (UV-VIS) spectroscopy illustrate the ability to distinguish two different homeopathic medicines (Nux vomica and Natrum muriaticum) from one another and to differentiate, within a given medicine, the 6c, 12c, and 30c potencies. Materials science concepts and experimental tools offer a new approach to contemporary science, for making significant advances in the basic science studies of homeopathic medicines.

 

[meow]

Martin Chaplin widely regarded as world's expert on water

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/78601.php

Guest editor Professor Martin Chaplin of the Department of Applied Science at London South Bank University, remarks: "There is strong evidence concerning many ways in which the mechanism of this 'memory' may come about. There are also mechanisms by which such solutions may possess effects on biological systems which substantially differ from plain water."

 

[Darat]

Several posts moved to AAH, please remember your Membership Agreement, especially Rule 11 and Rule 12.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

pretty absurd argument. 1st of all things in the medical field continually change and in most cases they improve. often they look back in horror at the way things were done.

it will be no different 30 40 50 years from now.

by your logic you are saying that the way things are being done right now is the perfect way, the only way, and the way it will be done forever.

that's not the case.

millions are very much dissatisfied, they are suffering horribly and they have a right to seek other methods.

yes, i agree, most alt med is rubbish, but some things work.

at last count there were something like 75,000 european medical doctors who used homeopathy in their practice, most of them in germany and france. maybe there is something to it. i dont know, but i'm not going to take that choice away from people.

are you smarter than those doctors?

Typical nonsensical argument used all the time by folks who don't understand the nature of medical science. Science is the best approach because it works. The fact it self corrects is not testament to its unreliability but rather to the reliable nature of the scientific process. Bad medicine is continually weeded out leaving the best to occupy the majority of current medical practice.

 

[RationalVetMed]

Come on, explain the details of the findings of these papers you're touting, and why you give them such credit.

Meaow will you please make an old man happy and answer this question, it’s been asked many times now and you have consistently declined to answer. I believe you have no idea how to interpret research findings or of the significance of adequate blinding.

alcohol is a polar molecule same as water as are sugar molecules. polarity appears to play a role in this from a korean experiment performed a while back.

not sure on the whole homeopathy aspect but possibly polar sugar molecules act as a storage device. http://www.jcrows.com/dilution.html

‘Possibly’ and ‘appears’ are weasel words. Please explain how, if memory of water exists, such memory transfers to dry lactose tablets from a drop of that water and also how the polar property of any molecule can be used as a storage mechanism in homeopathic remedies.

Yuri

 

[Pixel42]

show me where he isn't allowed to change the design at any time

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

5. After an agreement is reached on the protocol, no part of the testing procedure may be changed in any way without the further agreement – in writing – of all parties concerned

 

[Mojo]

well aint this interesting, Penn State professors may be on to something.

pay these men their million!

anyone know anything about this study?


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17678814

Er, yes: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88831

See also the comment on the paper published in a following issue of the same journal.

 

[Mojo]

...nobel prize winning dr rey.

When did he win that?

 

[Mojo]

Martin Chaplin widely regarded as world's expert on water

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/78601.php

Guest editor Professor Martin Chaplin of the Department of Applied Science at London South Bank University, remarks: "There is strong evidence concerning many ways in which the mechanism of this 'memory' may come about. There are also mechanisms by which such solutions may possess effects on biological systems which substantially differ from plain water."

If you want some comment on the special issue of Homeopathy of which he was guest editor, this is a good place to start.

 

[meow]

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

nonsense, that thing is chock full of loopholes. how many preliminary stages are there? sounds like unlimited.

and LOL at only recognized personalities are eligible. i.e., you have to be famous or have some high position like professorship.

completely ridiculous.

the whole thing reeks.




thermoluminescence can easily detect a salt solution from a control at dilutions far beyond avogadro's number


give it up, you've been defeated.

 

[meow]

If you want some comment on the special issue of Homeopathy of which he was guest editor, this is a good place to start.

thanks!

it seems to be nothing but a bunch of denialists screaming "no no no!!!"

but i see that Rey's study was reproduced!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

more ammo for me.

thank you big time for that!

 

[Mojo]

but i see that Rey's study was reproduced!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But according to the authors of the paper reporting this:

However, the difference from all of these recordings of these substances was not statistically significant.

 

[Mashuna]

nonsense, that thing is chock full of loopholes. how many preliminary stages are there? sounds like unlimited.

Only if you keep failing. Otherwise, there's one preliminary test.

 

[RationalVetMed]

But according to the authors of the paper reporting this:

But the study was replicated [end of story] - I think we'll find that the actual results are of little relevance to miaow.

Yuri

 

[Rolfe]

You know, I don't think we give enough credit to Xanta/Gold/olaf/QII/yaw/nerr. We frequently refer to Dana Ullman and his premature championing of the Rao et al. (Roy) paper that we had such fun taking apart. (Certainly the part where he accused us of not having the "scientific chops" to publish on the subject, being followed by an actual publication by members of this forum in the relevant journal was entertaining.) We thank Dana for prompting us to look at the data in that paper in advance of publication so that we were able to hit the ground running when the journal came out.

However, we were already fairly familiar with it even before Dana mentioned it. Wasn't it Xanta/Gold/olaf/QII/yaw/nerr who originally brought the subject up in one of her periodic drive-by reference-dumps?

That's this paper, of course (to avoid accusations of off-topic).

well aint this interesting, Penn State professors may be on to something.

pay these men their million!

anyone know anything about this study?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17678814

Preliminary data obtained using Raman and Ultra-Violet-Visible (UV-VIS) spectroscopy illustrate the ability to distinguish two different homeopathic medicines (Nux vomica and Natrum muriaticum) from one another and to differentiate, within a given medicine, the 6c, 12c, and 30c potencies. Materials science concepts and experimental tools offer a new approach to contemporary science, for making significant advances in the basic science studies of homeopathic medicines.

That's the paper which was followed up by the letter from the group on this forum, to which the main author could only reply, "hey, at least we showed that you can detect contamination in ethanol by UV spectroscopy!" No, really?

But meow thinks JREF should give the authors the million. Of course.

Rolfe.