Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

[Kevin_Lowe]

So you can be a little pregnant then. I see. You left out a piece of the "continuum" that is called Capitalism. Wolfe doesn't even know what fascism is. What she describes in her 10 points is totalitarianism. And in a totalitarian system there are no checks and balances on the head of state and there are NEVER peaceful transfers of power. You also don't know what Communism is. Communism like Fascism is a governing philosophy, socialism is an economic philosophy that can be implemented in most any governmental system just as capitalism can be implemented in Communist China. Bush did everything as president under the same constitutional checks and balances that every president in our history has operated under. He did not rule by decree as Totalitarian regimes do. Wolfe's list just as the one I posted are just hysterical hand waving that have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of how this country functions.

I don't think there was a single coherent thought in that entire post.

 

[Skeptic]

Those were dark dark times. Lets take a moment to reflect on the suffering and heroism of the Dick Cheney resistance movement.

Yes, the risks these folks ran in resisting American fascism! They were all just on the verge of being put into concentration camps by the evil fascist Bush and his henchman Cheney, when the savior Obama came and rescued them.

Why, if they had to go to one more cocktail party to tell everybody just horribly fascist America is, they'd probably develop alcoholism. The last urine sample they gave had an olive in it. Not a good sign.

I just think we should all join in a moment of silence for the enormous sacrifice, in wear and tear on the printing fingers and jaw muscles, the anti-fascist resistance movement in the USA had willingly made, so that all of us can sleep safely at night.

 

[Texas]

I don't think there was a single coherent thought in that entire post.

I have noticed that you have trouble understanding a lot of people's posts. You may want to do some self reflection.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What I don't undestand is what makes such a "Letter or Warning" different than simply being an impressive-sounding but empty tautology, saying in effect nothing more than "either America will be fascist or it will not".

The word "warning" in her claims served exactly the same purpose the words "maybe", "possibly", "I feel like", etc. serve in psychic cold reading. It makes her "warning" true no matter what happens -- but also makes her claim unfalsifiable and therefore worthless.

If America becomes fascist it's a "hit". If it doesn't, but some of the things she said occur, that too is a "hit" because it proves America is "on the road" (another weasel-word expression) to fascism. If virtually nothing she says in her warning comes true (which is more or less what happened), she just WARNED us against fascism, she didn't say America IS becoming fascist, so it's at least not a miss. Besides, America can always become fascist at some later time, so the warning is still true; and, what's more, surely the only reason America did not become fascist is because her warning alerted people to the danger. So that, too, is a "hit", after all.

In short, the numerous weasel words she used (a "warning", "on the road to", etc.) made her claims totally unfalsifiable tuatology. It was simply psychic cold reading disguised as a political commentary.

The complaint was made this book was inaccurate because it claimed America was a fascist county. But that is not what the book said. Because you don't happen to like the author, the subject, the true motive you believe you can read between the lines, that's all your business. But in the meantime, your interpretation of the book is just that, your interpretation. It is not what the book was about at all.

The author made some observations about what elements a fascist state consisted of then pointed out some analogies going on in America at the time. The book was all about the slippery slope and nothing about America is already a fascist country.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

I find it strange that what you worry about in regards to the possibility of more Al Qaeda attacks is the effect on our government, rather than the tragedies that such attacks would themselves create.

While I find it strange that you think only of the attack and perhaps don't notice the response to the attack did more harm than the attack itself. We're now more than a 1,000 over the 911 deaths and counting.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

.... That same cooperation includes legal obligations towards human rights which makes it practically impossible for an EU-member to become fascist.
At the other side of the Atlantic the WTC attacks nudged US politics slightly in the direction of fascism. ...

I wouldn't be too sure about that first statement, you still have language and cultural differences that could lead to a reversal toward more nationalism, but the second one is exactly what I would have said.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well I have a list of 10 items that proves that America is a communist nation and it has been around a lot longer than Wolfe's. In fact she should be sued for plagiarism

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in Government/Communism/manifesto.htm

Ignoring the fact you've reiterated the false claim Wolf's book said anything of the kind about already being fascist, let's look at these claims:

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. Property tax paid annually prevents the outright ownership of property, because if property can be confiscated for taxes owed, it can never truly be owned. The application of our rents of land (property taxes) are used for public purposes as envisioned by Karl Marx.

Someone can steal from you also, does that mean you don't really own anything? You could lose a lawsuit, so you don't really own your money. Rather than this being on the slope to communism, I'd say it's closer to coming down a tad off the hill of anarchism.

A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. The income tax was imposed upon the people briefly after the War Between The Southern States and The dictatorial Federal Government. In 1895, The US Supreme Court abolished it with the words, "The income tax is indeed a direct tax and therefore unconstitutional". The Court understood that, "No capitation, or other direct Tax shall be laid,..." Art. 1, Sec. 9, of the US Constitution, means exactly what it says. However, in 1913 there were enough socialist in Congress to again foist the income tax upon the people with the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. The income tax is not designed just to raise taxes, which could be accomplished very easily with a national sales tax. Instead, its goal is to punish achievement, invade privacy, and control the people through fear and intimidation from the most Gestapo-like arm of our government, the I.R.S.

Same thing. No government, no community obligations, that's anarchy not a capitalist democracy. You seem to think it's anarchy or communism. No in between exists by these arguments.

Abolition of all right of inheritance. Our inheritance tax puts all rights of inheritance in jeopardy. Property tax, income tax, and inheritance tax, should be abolished because they are all direct taxes and they all violate our God-given property rights.

God given property rights?

They could be replaced with indirect taxes like sales tax, tobacco tax, alcohol tax, or gasoline tax. Some advantages of indirect taxes are:

They are indeed Constitutional.
Our privacy would be protected.
Everyone who spends money participates including the super-wealthy, foreign visitors, illegal aliens, drug dealers, and others now in the underground economy.
It is a pay as you go system - no April 15th.
The IRS and all associated collection cost would be eliminated.
Lower production cost will allow business to compete internationally.
Prices would come down more than enough to cover the sales tax increase.
Business would expand creating new jobs.
The money now in off-shore tax-havens would flood back into this country stimulating the economy.
Manufacturing would come back home absent the over-taxation and over-regulation that drove them to foreign countries.

And the drawbacks, they are progressive and take a huge % of poor people's income and only a teeny tiny fraction of rich people's income. I'd say that was closer to a system of serfdom.

Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Our government does not normally confiscate property of emigrants, however, many laws and regulations have been passed in recent years which allow many government agencies such as the I.R.S., O.S.H.A., E.P.A., B.L.M., and drug enforcement agencies to confiscate property from citizens that are considered rebels. Much of this confiscation is achieved without due process of law.

Not sure about the legitimate decisions of regulating bodies here but these things hardly occur without a process. What would be the alternative if actions on your private property destroyed the value of my private property? There's no sliding the slope to communism here, only necessary interventions any society needs to function.

Again, unless anarchism is the hill you want to live on.

Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. The Federal Reserve System was created in 1913. It is not federally owned and nothing is in reserve. It is a private corporation with the power to increase or decrease the money supply by changing the interest rates and the reserve requirements of its member banks. It can create money out of thin air, lend it to the government and then collect the principal and interest from the taxpayers. That is why its owners always have and always will promote war and socialism to create inextinguishable government debt.
"Permit me to control the currency of a nation and I care not who makes its laws." -Baron De Rothschild, brainchild of the Federal Reserve Bank.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." -Thomas Jefferson


[snip same stuff]

Sure, like the private system has worked so well. That's why the world economy just tanked.

Again, you are trying to make the case there is either libertarian anarchy or communism and nothing in between. You can't make that case.

Free education for all children in public schools.... Communist and socialist have long recognized the value of indoctrination through a free educational system. And, it has produced a people with no understanding of the vast differences between the Free Enterprise System and socialism. During our Bicentennial celebrations (1986), a national poll of school children revealed that 46% of them believed that "From him with the most ability - to him with the most need" was part of our Constitution. Today all socialist, all liberals and most democrats believe the same thing.

You also cannot make the case that because one system supports free education no other system can do the same. This logic doesn't fly. Other than minimal standards how has the country moved toward uniform indoctrination in schools?


If this source really indicative of the crap you believe, wow, that's pretty bad.

 

[gtc]

While I find it strange that you think only of the attack and perhaps don't notice the response to the attack did more harm than the attack itself. We're now more than a 1,000 over the 911 deaths and counting.

Americans lost many times more people in WWII than were lost at Pearl Harbour but that isn't the basis on which WWII is judged.

I don't see why we should base our judgement on the WOT on the basis of the number of Americans killed alone.

 

[Texas]

Ignoring the fact you've reiterated the false claim Wolf's book said anything of the kind about already being fascist, let's look at these claims: Someone can steal from you also, does that mean you don't really own anything? You could lose a lawsuit, so you don't really own your money. Rather than this being on the slope to communism, I'd say it's closer to coming down a tad off the hill of anarchism.

Same thing. No government, no community obligations, that's anarchy not a capitalist democracy. You seem to think it's anarchy or communism. No in between exists by these arguments.


God given property rights?


And the drawbacks, they are progressive and take a huge % of poor people's income and only a teeny tiny fraction of rich people's income. I'd say that was closer to a system of serfdom.


Not sure about the legitimate decisions of regulating bodies here but these things hardly occur without a process. What would be the alternative if actions on your private property destroyed the value of my private property? There's no sliding the slope to communism here, only necessary interventions any society needs to function.

Again, unless anarchism is the hill you want to live on.


Sure, like the private system has worked so well. That's why the world economy just tanked.

Again, you are trying to make the case there is either libertarian anarchy or communism and nothing in between. You can't make that case.

You also cannot make the case that because one system supports free education no other system can do the same. This logic doesn't fly. Other than minimal standards how has the country moved toward uniform indoctrination in schools?


If this source really indicative of the crap you believe, wow, that's pretty bad.

So you don't buy the Communism argument? Why am I not surprised? I concider both sources crap but unlike you, I actually live in the real United States not the fevered imaginary USA of the fringe at either end of the political spectrum. You should visit it, it really is a good place to live.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, the risks these folks ran in resisting American fascism! They were all just on the verge of being put into concentration camps by the evil fascist Bush and his henchman Cheney, when the savior Obama came and rescued them.

....

What would you have people do, Skeptic? Government ignores habeas corpus, rounds up large numbers of people who are of Arab descent and arbitrarily deports them, builds a prison outside of the bounds of the courts, begins secret renditions, openly condones torture, installs equipment in central telecommunications buildings and begins warrantless spying on all citizens, effectively replaces the staff at the Federal Dept of Justice with people willing to do the political bidding of those in power, used an attack on the US to justify invading a country which was revealed to have been discussed prior to the attack as a desired invasion if only they could find a reason the public would support, ....

Are you saying no one should be the least bit concerned about these activities? We should just trust the government?

 

[Texas]

What would you have people do, Skeptic? Government ignores habeas corpus, rounds up large numbers of people who are of Arab descent and arbitrarily deports them, builds a prison outside of the bounds of the courts, begins secret renditions, openly condones torture, installs equipment in central telecommunications buildings and begins warrantless spying on all citizens, effectively replaces the staff at the Federal Dept of Justice with people willing to do the political bidding of those in power, used an attack on the US to justify invading a country which was revealed to have been discussed prior to the attack as a desired invasion if only they could find a reason the public would support, ....

Are you saying no one should be the least bit concerned about these activities? We should just trust the government?

Please provide a link to large numbers of deportations. Renditions have been used for 20 years. Openly condones tough interrogation methods condoned by Congress, Warrantless wiretapping of foreign to domestic calls and survived all legal challenges, fired people that serve at the pleasure of the president and perfectly legal, Invaded a country with full authorisation of an almost unanimous congress. Give it a rest, Bush was well within constitutional bounds for every thing you accuse him of.

 

[Ziggurat]

While I find it strange that you think only of the attack and perhaps don't notice the response to the attack did more harm than the attack itself. We're now more than a 1,000 over the 911 deaths and counting.

I've noticed. But why do you think that's surprising? Our response to Pearl Harbor left far more Americans dead than Pearl Harbor itself did - orders of magnitude more. That's how most wars go. The only sure-fire way to avoid that is to just keep letting the enemy hit you, so you can rack up pre-response deaths to a sufficient level. Quite a strategy, that.

 

[Pardalis]

Those fascist only forgot one thing: stay in power.

Everything Skeptigirl can say is easily debunked by the last elections.

 

[BeAChooser]

While I find it strange that you think only of the attack and perhaps don't notice the response to the attack did more harm than the attack itself. We're now more than a 1,000 over the 911 deaths and counting.

But you don't have a crystal ball as to what would be the death toll now had we not invaded. Surely you don't believe those terrorists we've captured and killed as a result of invading Iraq wouldn't have killed any Americans anywhere else? Jordan already convicted a dozen who were involved in a terrorist plot hatched in Baghdad before the war by some of those we killed. Had it been successful, it would have killed everyone in the US embassy in Amman and perhaps tens of thousands of Jordanians.

 

[Sefarst]

What would you have people do, Skeptic? Government ignores habeas corpus, rounds up large numbers of people who are of Arab descent and arbitrarily deports them, builds a prison outside of the bounds of the courts, begins secret renditions, openly condones torture, installs equipment in central telecommunications buildings and begins warrantless spying on all citizens, effectively replaces the staff at the Federal Dept of Justice with people willing to do the political bidding of those in power, used an attack on the US to justify invading a country which was revealed to have been discussed prior to the attack as a desired invasion if only they could find a reason the public would support, ....

Are you saying no one should be the least bit concerned about these activities? We should just trust the government?

No, which is why we have court systems, free speech and freedom of the press. It's nice to see you backing away from your ridiculous earlier claims though. Stop trying to re-organize your argument by cherry-picking details that you think can somehow save yours and Wolf's initial premises, admit you were wrong, and move on.

And because I didn't get to do it the first time around, LOL Naomi Wolf.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Those fascist only forgot one thing: stay in power.

Everything Skeptigirl can say is easily debunked by the last elections.

There is an alternative explanation, Pard. The fact I and thousands of others did speak up resulted in people listening and taking action, as opposed to swallowing their Soma like good little citizens.

The fact Obama was such a welcome change and Bush so poorly thought of is telling. It tells us I was right from the beginning.

The fact that views such as those of 'Texas' here are common tells us we cannot get complacent about it.

 

[Sefarst]

There is an alternative explanation, Pard. The fact I and thousands of others did speak up resulted in people listening and taking action, as opposed to swallowing their Soma like good little citizens.

Yes, you're quite the little heroine. We're all very proud of you for saving us from this fascist dictator. Being Commander and Chief of the most powerful military in the history of the world was no match for your blogs, petitions, and opinion polls.

The fact Obama was such a welcome change and Bush so poorly thought of is telling. It tells us I was right from the beginning.

Non sequitur of the year? An unpopular president being replaced by a more popular one proves the unpopular was a fascist?

The fact that views such as those of 'Texas' here are common tells us we cannot get complacent about it.

Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The US hasn't gone through anything comparable with what Germany went through during WWI since the American Civil War.

America hasn't gone through anything like what germany went through since that time when they did.

Brilliant deduction.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, which is why we have court systems, free speech and freedom of the press. It's nice to see you backing away from your ridiculous earlier claims though. Stop trying to re-organize your argument by cherry-picking details that you think can somehow save yours and Wolf's initial premises, admit you were wrong, and move on.

And because I didn't get to do it the first time around, LOL Naomi Wolf.

I made no ridiculous earlier claims. Many of the right wing nutters in this forum take everything I post and add about 20 pounds of leftist crap to it before their brains process what I've said.

You are doing the same here claiming I've somehow now shifted my position. What you think I said may have shifted, but my political sentiments have not. The only thing that is different now from 2 years ago is the risk has been greatly reduced.

This goes to Pard's post as well. Instead of looking at where Georgie took this country over the last 8 years, Bush supporters in this discussion are claiming, "See, it didn't get worse". They are not claiming, "See it wasn't that bad". Instead of noticing that once the picture of this administration finally got around the the citizens who were paying less attention than some of us, those citizens agreed, it was that bad.

You have replied that the system self corrected without noting Bush was guilty of ignoring the rule of law under that system. You talked right past what I posted: detaining people without trial, torturing prisoners, spying on all citizens, using the Justice Department as a private law firm used to attack political opponents, these are not what you've posted: court system and free speech.

It took getting the facts out to the public by concerned citizens who were paying attention to effect the change here. If we left it up to the system alone, it wouldn't have happened. I think it's time to start a new thread: "We told you so."

 

[gtc]

It took getting the facts out to the public by concerned citizens who were paying attention to effect the change here. If we left it up to the system alone, it wouldn't have happened. I think it's time to start a new thread: "We told you so."

No one can seriously argue that McCain would have won the election but for shrill nonsense like 'Fascist America'.