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Split Thread The validity of classical physics (split from: DWFTTW)

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If the force from a parachute is linear with velocity, then that is simply;
Power (available) = force* distance/time = force * velocity.

If the load, such as drag, is proportional to velocity squared.
Power (demand) = force * (V^2)

Perhaps humber just needs a moment to realize that the force from a parachute is drag, so one formula is all he needs to cite.

The linear force (or nearly linear) involved is the rolling resistance of the cart.
 
Well, here we are, one month and 3000 posts into this topic. Maybe we should have a list of what has been covered so that we can just refer to a number rather than going through the same arguments again, just for humber.

Then again, it might be easier to make a list of what humber has learned.:D

1) "Windspeed is stand still, in still air."
2) Aircraft fall out of the sky at windspeed.

Anything else?
 
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Don't try to be clever. Common usage has set that to '5 year old'.

Er, no. That's what you were told. It's also the reason you were the tallest kid in the class till you were in Gr. 10. ;)

The boundary layer has no effect on the cart, on the road or on the treadmill. If you think otherwise, feel free to explain how :)
 
Well, here we are, one month and 3000 posts into this topic. Maybe we should have a list of what has been covered so that we can just refer to a number rather than going through the same arguments again, just for humber.

Then again, it might be easier to make a list of what humber has learned.:D

1) "Windspeed is stand still, in still air."
2) Aircraft fall out of the sky at windspeed.

Anything else?
I think he still disputes 2.
 
No. The force is approximately linearly proportional to the relative velocity of chute and wind.

Oh Humber, Humber Humber Humber Humber, how embarrassing. Now how could we ever determine if drag is proportional to velocity or velocity squared? It would seem that there is a huge difference. Can anyone think of an experiment which could provide measurements we could rely on? Would Humber ever believe the results of such experiments?

Please explain Humber. If you are correct that aerodynamic drag force is proportional to the relative velocity between air and object, and can show it to be true, I want to work for you. Please please please show us how.

On the other hand, there may be unexpected and unhealthy side effects.

And yet you did state "relative velocity of chute and wind" didn't you? I suppose this is to be your escape clause since it is ambiguous and essentially meaningless, just like everything else you write.

I suppose you didn't define what "force" you were talking about either, and you never will define your terms, then make reasonable statements using them. This is your problem. This is why you can never win an argument. You may see it as a way of never losing, but in reality there is never an actual argument. You can't form one. You are only a sideshow, occasionally funny and entertaining, yes, but overall completely useless for the present purposes.
 
Please explain Humber. If you are correct that aerodynamic drag force is proportional to the relative velocity between air and object, and can show it to be true, I want to work for you. Please please please show us how.
Be careful what you wish for semper... it would seem that Humber is correct if it's a very small object and/or not moving very fast at all relative to the air (so that the flow around the object is essentially laminar instead of turbulent). See more here or here. Perhaps Humber is thinking of John Freeman's little man flying a teeny weeny kite in the boundary layer of a pixie's treadmill? :)

I'd like to see some data for cart sized objects and treadmill type speeds to see how close the different approximations are to reality.
 
Well, here we are, one month and 3000 posts into this topic. Maybe we should have a list of what has been covered so that we can just refer to a number rather than going through the same arguments again, just for humber.

Then again, it might be easier to make a list of what humber has learned.:D

1) "Windspeed is stand still, in still air."
2) Aircraft fall out of the sky at windspeed.

Anything else?

Make the list of things where humber is wrong then strike through each item as he figures it out. This way we will all be reminded where he needs help if anyone decides to try and help him.
 
Be careful what you wish for semper... it would seem that Humber is correct if it's a very small object and/or not moving very fast at all relative to the air (so that the flow around the object is essentially laminar instead of turbulent). See more here or here. Perhaps Humber is thinking of John Freeman's little man flying a teeny weeny kite in the boundary layer of a pixie's treadmill? :)

I'd like to see some data for cart sized objects and treadmill type speeds to see how close the different approximations are to reality.

Yeah, ok, we should always be careful to generalize, and we won't expect drag to follow a continuous curve nor be linear across all domains or intervals. And more is the point about defining terms and conditions.

BTW the very best resource I know of for fluid mechanics;
http://web.mit.edu/hml/ncfmf.html
Priceless old films, I'd love to know what Humber thinks of them.
 
I'd like to see some data for cart sized objects and treadmill type speeds to see how close the different approximations are to reality.

I'm almost certain that linear in v regime never applies to cart-sized objects in air. The calculation I mentioned is very simple, and I don't see how it can be far wrong under reasonable conditions.
 
Yes, so what size, speed and speed range were you referring to Humber? Either way, I think you have terminally disgraced yourself.
 
Except that this new metaphor has nothing to do with the maximum power theorem, which leavest the fact that MPT has nothing to do with treadmills and objects in motion, and you have no idea what you're talking about.
Not a metaphor a fact.
When all elements are reactive, then no work is done. When restive,(real) then work is done. MPT does not mean that the efficiency is 50%, but that would the case if maximum power is transferred.

time wasn't involved before???? HA!
Of course, but not phase shift, that allows for all the energy to be stored. There is of course an R/C time constant.
 
Perhaps humber just needs a moment to realize that the force from a parachute is drag, so one formula is all he needs to cite.

The linear force (or nearly linear) involved is the rolling resistance of the cart.

That does not matter so much. It is only an approximation for this esample.
It is not correct to assume that the rolling resistance is linear. There will be drag with the air and that is at least V^2.
The principle still applies.
 
Er, no. That's what you were told. It's also the reason you were the tallest kid in the class till you were in Gr. 10. ;)
You're funny.

The boundary layer has no effect on the cart, on the road or on the treadmill. If you think otherwise, feel free to explain how :)
Lifts the wheels. Shows that wind is not equivalent
 
Oh Humber, Humber Humber Humber Humber, how embarrassing. Now how could we ever determine if drag is proportional to velocity or velocity squared? It would seem that there is a huge difference. Can anyone think of an experiment which could provide measurements we could rely on? Would Humber ever believe the results of such experiments?
Wrong again. The force of the wind on the chute or balloon is proportional to the difference is wind ans object velocities. There is opposing drag of the chute itelf, so that limits the velocity, even without a load.

Please explain Humber. If you are correct that aerodynamic drag force is proportional to the relative velocity between air and object, and can show it to be true, I want to work for you. Please please please show us how.
Not drag, force. References have been given.
 
Make the list of things where humber is wrong then strike through each item as he figures it out. This way we will all be reminded where he needs help if anyone decides to try and help him.

I don't think you have made one successful point.
 
We discussed this extensively upthread. How shocking that humber learned nothing.

The drag force is generally proportional to velocity squared, for the simple reason that both the number of molecules encountered and the momentum transferred to each is proportional to velocity.

Not drag, force. The load, the skater, I assigned a square law.
You never learn.
 
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