Merged Dutch MP to be charged for "hate speech"

Oh, I know some forum members who would go ape **** about Wilder's if he would rant about the Jews the same way he does about the Muslims. :)

As most forum members are Atheists, I doubt it.

I can't phrase this is anything but an antagonistic way, but could you respond to my question?
 
I believe Wilders' position on the Koran is that it openly incites violence and therefore goes beyond the freedom of expression. He claims not to advocate violence but the right to criticise Islam. Therefore, if all the above is true, he is not being a hypocrite.
 
If that is the case that would seem to indicate that he agrees with the legislation which led to his prosecution, just not that he has breached those laws.
 
I believe Wilders' position on the Koran is that it openly incites violence and therefore goes beyond the freedom of expression. He claims not to advocate violence but the right to criticise Islam. Therefore, if all the above is true, he is not being a hypocrite.

Plenty of historical texts incite violence, we don't ban them. Should we omit the rallying cries of generals from history books?

The banning of Mein Kampf is against freedom of speech, and Wilders would do well to know that.

He is no great champion of free speech, he is a poor filmmaker and an arch hypocrite.
 
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Don't you think there is a difference between being an anti-semite and anti-Islam? If this man was anti-Arab (he may be, for all I know) then you would be on firmer ground to offer that comparison.

If there was a film that was anti-Judiac -not anti-semitic- I hope you would not declare your hope that the director would rot in prison.


What is the difference between Anti-Judiac and Anti-Semitism?
 
I believe Wilders' position on the Koran is that it openly incites violence and therefore goes beyond the freedom of expression. He claims not to advocate violence but the right to criticise Islam. Therefore, if all the above is true, he is not being a hypocrite.

If that is the case that would seem to indicate that he agrees with the legislation which led to his prosecution, just not that he has breached those laws.

Or that he stands above that law. :) The question whether Wilders is hypocritical is an interesting one. A couple of quotes, taken from the Appeals Court's verdict.

First, what has Wilders said about the Koran:
Artikel Volkskrant 8 oktober 2007 “Wilders: verbied de Koran, ook in moskee”

- “Dit boek zet aan tot haat en moord, en past daarom niet in onze rechtsorde. Als moslims willen participeren, moeten ze afstand nemen van deze Koran. Ik zie in dat dit veel gevraagd is, maar we moeten stoppen met het doen van concessies”
In an article in the Volkskrant newspaper, October 8, 2007, titled "Wilders: ban the Koran, also in the mosque", Wilders was cited saying:
This book incites to hatred and murder, and therefore doesn't fit in our legal system. When muslims want to participate, they have to distance themselves from this Koran. I see that's a big demand, but we must stop doing concessions

The Court also noted that he has repeated the "ban the Koran" phrase quite frequently.

It's also interesting to note that, while he frequently advocated banning the Koran, he never filed a complaint with the public prosecutor to actually do so.

Wilders himself has also been heard by the Court:
Ik vind dat ik de ruimte heb en moet krijgen om te zeggen wat ik wil, waarbij ik me realiseer dat des te uitgesprokener je bent, des te meer reacties je – zowel in positieve als in negatieve zin – krijgt. Als volksvertegenwoordiger vind ik echter dat je alles moet kunnen voorstellen.
<snip />
Mijn overtuiging is al met al dat ik binnen de kaders van de wet ben gebleven.
In translation:
I think I have and should get the privilege to say what I want; and I realise that the more outspoken you are, the more reactions you get, both positive and negative. As an MP, I think I should be able to propose anything.
<snip />
My conviction is that, all in all, I have remained within the limits of the law.
So he flirts with both notions: that on the one hand, he is allowed to say anything, and on the other hand, there is a law which says there are limits.

In various public statements during the last couple of years, he has always defended his comments with the freedom of speech. I can't remember if he ever said that that freedom was absolute.

His lawyers also filed a brief with the Court, and they are more cautiously (surprise :)):
Ten aanzien van de vrijheid van meningsuiting brengen de gemachtigden naar voren dat een publiek debat over zaken van algemeen belang slechts in gevallen van uiterste noodzaak mag worden beperkt.
In translation:
W.r.t. the freedom of speech, the lawyers state that a public debate on matters of public interest may only by limited due to extreme necessities.

I think, all in all, that there is a certain hypocrisy in Wilders' stance. One way or another, he wants to be able to say what he wants for himself. When push comes to shove, he tries to hide behind his immunity as an MP. I remarked earlier that I thought he had a good point that it would be bizarre if he could make certain statements in Parliament with impunity, but not outside Parliament, but the Court has a better one. Their decision that the public prosecutor should prosecute Wilders for incitement of hatred is not only based on the content of his statements, but also on the frequency with which they were repeated. When he had repeated his "ban the Koran" comment in Parliament in, say, a debate on the price of cauliflower (to borrow from Stephen Sackur), I'm pretty sure the chairwoman would have called him to order, and the comment would have been stricken from the record.
 
Plenty of historical texts incite violence, we don't ban them. Should we omit the rallying cries of generals from history books?
There's a definite difference whether you write a history book and mention that the crusaders called to "kill all infidels", or that the author himself calls to kill all infidels.

The banning of Mein Kampf is against freedom of speech, and Wilders would do well to know that.
The original of Mein Kampf isn't banned; the Bavarian state owns the copyright and won't have it published. :) The Dutch government has seized the copyright of the most popular (pre-WW2) translation and employs the same trick. Some other countries have an outright ban.

He is no great champion of free speech, he is a poor filmmaker and an arch hypocrite.
Agreed on 2.5 counts. :)
 
I think the Dutch are making a big mistake in allowing prosecutions such as these to go forward.

As for the hypocrisy and irony, free speech is an institution that is not required to be a two-way street. Wilders seems like a real toad, but that's irrelevant.
 
Anyone got crime statistics for Holland? I expect that just like most EU countries, muslim and islamic people are amoungst the lowest cited in crime statistics.

I am not sure we have statistics on crime with ethnic data. It is a bit of a taboo to note the ethnic background of a criminal.

In Holland muslim or islamic means more or less Turkish or Moroccan as the great majority of that faith comes from those countries, they came here to work from in the sixties and seventies.

Nowadays it is a fact that in some areas of crime young people from those backgrounds are overrepresented. Nobody will deny that. But it is not their faith that causes this, it is the fact that in many areas of society they still have difficulties to overcome. Their parents or grandparents are low educated, they came here for manual labour. In school they have a disadvantage (culture, language, racism) All this and much more together makes them more likely to be unemployed, or become drop-outs.. Just like everywhere else in the world (ghetto, gangs) Not that we have gangs like the famous examples in big American cities but that is mostly because we don't have big cities and because out social system is more extended than in a typical american state.

So yes, muslims* do commit more criminal acts than nonmuslims, but their faith has little or nothing to do with it. Wilders draws the wrong conclusions.



* The youths, many are teenagers, that add a lot to the crime statistics with acts of violence, vandalism, shoplifting, joyriding, blackmail etc are not exactly model believers. calling them muslims is a bit silly.
 
Free speech is not absolute. Libel and slander laws are exceptions to the freedom of speech and they do seem to benefit society at least some of the time.

Wilders has been accused of libel against muslims (comparing them to nazis by using the "Mein Kampf" metaphor). He will get his chance in court to defend the insults and hate messages and knowing the Dutch, he will get a fair trial.
That he should be exempted in the name of free speech is in my personal view ridiculous.

I personally despise the man. He is a provocateur, a narrow-minded bigot, a hypocrite populist and absolutely doesn't deserve the media attention he is getting. He obviously considers himself the successor of Pim Fortuyn, another despicable character of Dutch politics.
 
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In Holland muslim or islamic means more or less Turkish or Moroccan as the great majority of that faith comes from those countries, they came here to work from in the sixties and seventies.

Nowadays it is a fact that in some areas of crime young people from those backgrounds are overrepresented. Nobody will deny that. But it is not their faith that causes this, it is the fact that in many areas of society they still have difficulties to overcome. Their parents or grandparents are low educated, they came here for manual labour. In school they have a disadvantage (culture, language, racism) All this and much more together makes them more likely to be unemployed, or become drop-outs..

It's mostly the same in Belgium, except that the problem seems narrowed down to Morocan teens, the Turkish tend to be integrated a bit more.

A certain party (Vlaams Belang, i.e. Flemish Interest) have exploited this fact to spread hate and fear and blame every problem in Belgian society on the Moroccan population. Unfortunately this party have accumulated a staggering 15% of the public vote with their simplistic views and hate messages. The mainstream political parties have all agreed not to form a coalition with this party in order to prevent them from executing political power. This is called "cordon sanitaire", a French term meaning "political quarantaine".

Belgium has been critized by the Dutch for this "undemocratic" attitude, but it has now been in place for roughly 15 years and seems to have worked as this party is now starting to lose support.

I have always supported this stance. I believe that politicians should not be obliged to form a coalition with a party that opposes their views totally. If the party had obtained a majority of the vote they would have of course had the right to form a government, but luckily it never came to that.
 
I nominate Oliver for the following post:
Oh, I know some forum members who would go ape **** about Wilder's if he would rant about the Jews the same way he does about the Muslims. :)
I certainly wouldn't be calling for his prosecution. What a sick law!
 
It's mostly the same in Belgium, except that the problem seems narrowed down to Morocan teens, the Turkish tend to be integrated a bit more.

A similar pattern exists over here, though the reasons put forward for the differences between Turkish and Moroccan youths are suggested to be actually the reverse of what you claim.
Due to strong family ties within the Turkish comunity they are considered to be less integrated than Moroccans. This supposedly leading in the case of the latter group to significantly worse existential angst during adolescence. In other words, while the Turkish youths grow up in a relatively stable community with clear loyalities, Moroccan youths, due to being better integrated, are torn between loyalties to values of their parents and the values of their friends.

A certain party (Vlaams Belang, i.e. Flemish Interest) have exploited this fact to spread hate and fear and blame every problem in Belgian society on the Moroccan population. Unfortunately this party have accumulated a staggering 15% of the public vote with their simplistic views and hate messages. The mainstream political parties have all agreed not to form a coalition with this party in order to prevent them from executing political power. This is called "cordon sanitaire", a French term meaning "political quarantaine".

Belgium has been critized by the Dutch for this "undemocratic" attitude, but it has now been in place for roughly 15 years and seems to have worked as this party is now starting to lose support.

Wouldn't you say that the recent losses suffered by Vlaams Belang also had to do with Leterme adopting a more "Nationalist" tone and thus undercutting their powerbase?

With respect to the Dutch view on the Cordon Sanitaire...
Well you know us, we have a big mouth, but confronted with a similar situation we'd probably do the same... ;)

I have always supported this stance. I believe that politicians should not be obliged to form a coalition with a party that opposes their views totally. If the party had obtained a majority of the vote they would have of course had the right to form a government, but luckily it never came to that.

The essence of coalition politics! I wholly agree...
 
It's mostly the same in Belgium, except that the problem seems narrowed down to Morocan teens, the Turkish tend to be integrated a bit more.
The same holds for the Netherlands. To be more precise: Moroccan male teens.

Belgium has been critized by the Dutch for this "undemocratic" attitude,
Have "we"?

I have always supported this stance. I believe that politicians should not be obliged to form a coalition with a party that opposes their views totally. If the party had obtained a majority of the vote they would have of course had the right to form a government, but luckily it never came to that.
It wasn't that hard on the Flemish or national level to maintain the "cordon sanitaire", but I remember there nearly being some creaks in it when it came to the Antwerp city council, where Vlaams Belang had quite a higher percentage. :boxedin:
 
Oh, and let's not forget: it's OK to march down the streets of Amsterdam flying the flag of a genocidal hate group while chanting for the destruction of Israel.

But if you dare criticize Islam you must be prosecuted. Because merely criticizing the "religion of peace" is incitement, the exact same thing as calling on others to take up arms and start murdering people!

What a dangerous path you are on.
 
Oh, and let's not forget: it's OK to march down the streets of Amsterdam flying the flag of a genocidal hate group while chanting for the destruction of Israel.

But if you dare criticize Islam you must be prosecuted. Because merely criticizing the "religion of peace" is incitement, the exact same thing as calling on others to take up arms and start murdering people!

What a dangerous path you are on.

Actually the socialist party MP Mr. van Bommel already has some complaints regarding his behavior during that rally. Time will tell whether or not he will be prosecuted...

I'm impressed by your fact-checking skills, read the press-report yet?
 
Actually the socialist party MP Mr. van Bommel already has some complaints regarding his behavior during that rally. Time will tell whether or not he will be prosecuted...
Don't be silly. Of course Muslims won't be prosecuted.

I'm impressed by your fact-checking skills, read the press-report yet?
Yes. I find it disgusting that the bar for incitement is set so low in your Amsterdam. Merely causing offense is prosecutable? Disgusting.

Note while I am offended by the rabid anti-semitism of the Gaza demonstrators I would never call for their prosecution. Because prosecuting someone for speech and speech alone (and that's exactly what this is no matter how you try to spin it) is more offensive by orders of magnitude.
 
Don't be silly. Of course Muslims won't be prosecuted.

Mr. van Bommel is not a Muslim...

Yes. I find it disgusting that the bar for incitement is set so low in your Amsterdam. Merely causing offense is prosecutable? Disgusting.

Actually the bar is set very high, the cases are very rare as ddt pointed out and there is a good chance he will be found not guilty.

Note while I am offended by the rabid anti-semitism of the Gaza demonstrators I would never call for their prosecution. Because prosecuting someone for speech and speech alone (and that's exactly what this is no matter how you try to spin it) is more offensive by orders of magnitude.

He is not prosecuted for speech but for incitement of hatred, BIG difference.

As for the rabid anti-semitism, I share your disgust...
 

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