Poverty in Venezuela dropped by 24.5 percentage points over the last decade

Tailgater said:
Right, but look at the industries being built. Dubai invests in tourism, ports, air travel, finance, IT, construction, etc. Industries designed to serve the rest of the world. Then look at Venezuala. Social services and military. While good in the short term, building low income housing on golf courses is not going to create a long term solution and alienating everyone financially is only going to hurt later. You should see how hard it is to get medical equipment into Columbia or Venezuala by private investors without long delays and money.
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and Venezuela is increasing its manufacturing and agriculture.
 
dudalb said:
Quite a few dictators start by getting elected...Mugabe comes to mind.
Not that it really matters to the Militant Lefties. They have loved lots of unelected dicators so long as they mouth the proper cliches...Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Castro comes to mind.
The fact is Democracy is disposble to the Hard Line idologues so long as the person doing the disposing has The True Faith.
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True.

It works the same way for the other side, where dictatorships or sham democracies are loved.
Saudiarabie,pakistan, pinoche in chile, assorted south/central banana repuplics, assorted stans.

I find it a bit hypocritical to criticise chaves dedication to democracy while praising a coup against him.
It is also a bit early to tell if he will go bad or not.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
and Venezuela is increasing its manufacturing and agriculture.
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http://www.answers.com/topic/economy-of-venezuela

Manufacturing, agriculture, and trade
Manufacturing contributed 17% of GDP in 2006. The manufacturing sector continues to increase dramatically in spite of private under-investment. Venezuela manufactures and exports steel, aluminium, transport equipment, textiles, apparel, beverages, and foodstuffs. It produces cement, tires, paper, fertilizer, and assembles cars both for domestic and export markets.

Agriculture accounts for approximately 3% of GDP, 10% of the labor force, and at least one-fourth of Venezuela's land area. Venezuela exports rice, corns, fish, tropical fruits, coffee, beef, and pork. The country is not self-sufficient in most areas of agriculture. Venezuela imports about two-thirds of its food needs. In 2002, U.S. firms exported $347 million worth of agricultural products, including wheat, corn, soybeans, soybean meal, cotton, animal fats, vegetable oils, and other items to make Venezuela one of the top two U.S. markets in South America. The United States supplies more than one-third of Venezuela's food imports.

Thanks to petroleum exports, Venezuela usually posts a trade surplus. In recent years, nontraditional (i.e., nonpetroleum) exports have been growing rapidly but still constitute only about one-fourth of total exports. The United States is Venezuela's leading trade partner. During 2002, the United States exported $4.4 billion in goods to Venezuela, making it the 25th-largest market for the U.S. Including petroleum products, Venezuela exported $15.1 billion in goods to the U.S., making it its 14th-largest source of goods. Venezuela has taken a very cautious approach toward the proposed Free Trade Agreement of the Americas.
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Might be an interesting year for manufacturing if things continue to go south in the US and a rise in oil to offset a loss would fuel higher prices in food imports.

1/4 land mass to support 3% of GDP? I don't know how much of a long term increase we will see based on that.
 
Toke said:
Chavez is elected as president, that is different than dictator.

At the coup against him, I recall the white house saying something like.
It is a "victory for democracy" and his replacement "a responsible buisnessman"

Guess some people define democracy/dictatorship by how the leader serve their interrests.
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I won't shed tears for Chavez, considering he led a coup attempt in 1992.
 
gtc said:
I won't shed tears for Chavez, considering he led a coup attempt in 1992.
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Yes, I realice you don´t like him.

Was he trying to coup a "responsible buissnesman"?

What if he had succeded and gone for hardcore capitalism instead of socialism, would that have made it a "victory for democracy"?
 
Toke said:
What if he had succeded and gone for hardcore capitalism instead of socialism, would that have made it a "victory for democracy"?
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Possibly, if he promoted democracy and a civil society. Its been tried in Turkey, Chile, Pakistan and Thailand with varying degrees of success (widely varying in some cases).

Instituting redistributive economic policies (or, depending on your perspective, stealing from the rich to give to the poor) doesn't create democracy and a civil society anymore than instituting capitalist reforms (or, alternatively, stealing from the poor to give to the rich).

However, I personally think you are more likely to see democracy and civil society form in a country that doesn't legitimise the exploitation or demonisation of one strata of society.
 
gtc said:
However, I personally think you are more likely to see democracy and civil society form in a country that doesn't legitimise the exploitation or demonisation of one strata of society.
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Agree.:)
Democracy tend to suffer badly when the poorest and largest strata are ripped off to the point of widespread illiteracy, malnutricion, ect.

If a democracy is working well the majority of the voters will vote to give themselves a majority of the money/wealth of the society.

So you can measure to what degree a democracy is working/sham by how evenly the wealth is distributed. (gina coeficient is one way)

And no I don´t advocate communist economy, it does´t work.
I am into democracy and a socialist fare of minimum wages, schools, welfare, healthcare etc. And capitalism on a short leash.
 
I wish nothing but the best for the Venezuelan people. I'm happy to hear of any good news. If Chavez becomes the man of the decade or the century and Venezuela becomes a great nation with low poverty rates and high HDI ratings then I will be happy to salute Chavez and embrace his actions. In fact I'm happy now to give him credit for the improved conditions.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4064

Poverty and inequality in Venezuela keep dropping according to Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (Cepal), they showed a decrease of 2.5% and 0.9% respectively for 2008 compared to last year.

especially Healthcare improved enormly



http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/indicators#social_spending

Atm, it looks like the Bolivarian revolution / 21st. Century Socialism is working. Atleast for the poor.
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Since your source is from a Venezuelan government house organ do you have a link to the actual report it cites? There is no link to it in the source website.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
why did he do that?
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DC, I found the source for the report mentioned in your OP. That report was written by the National Institute Of Statistics which is also a Government ran organisation so all sources are from Chavez. the following are some of the international responses to the numbers:

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/ceprpov.htm


Foreign Affairs, article by Jorge Casteñeda: “Latin America’s Left Turn,” May/June 2006

“Venezuela’s poverty figures and human development indices have deteriorated since 1999, when Chávez took office.”

Financial Times, news report: “Chavez opts for oil-fuelled world tour while progress slows on social issues; Challengers point to failures in housing and poverty ahead of December's elections,” May 11, 2006

“In one area - poverty - the government is adamant that it scores top marks. But there are doubts over the reliability of official data.
Early last year, Venezuela's National Statistics Institute said 53 per cent of the population lived in poverty at the end of 2004, 9.2 points higher than in early 1999, at the start of the Chavez government.

Irked by the numbers, the president ordered a change in INE's "methodology". Shortly after, it announced that, in mid-2005, only 39.5 per cent of people lived in poverty - a 14.5 point "improvement" in a few months.”
Foreign Policy, article by Javier Corrales: “Hugo Boss,” January 1, 2006

“Chavez has failed to improve any meaningful measure of poverty, education, or equity.”

Washington Post, editorial board, editorial: “A Leader for the 21st Century,” January 18, 2006

“In Venezuela, poverty rose from 43 to 53 percent during Mr. Chavez's first six [sic] years in office.”

Foreign Affairs, article by Michael Shifter: “In Search of Hugo Chávez,” May/June 2006, Vol 85, Number 3

“Available data of these measures’ effect are mixed and not altogether reliable. According to the Venezuelan government’s National Institute of Statistics, poverty rose from 43 to 54 percent during Chávez’s first four years in office . . . The government has also just changed its methodology for measuring poverty to reflect improvements in non-income criteria such as access to health services and education, which, it argued, were not reflected in past figures.”


Los Angeles Times, column by contributing editor Sergio Munoz: “The Santa of the Tropics,” March 5, 2006

“After seven years as president of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez's brand of populism has produced social catastrophe and economic disaster for Venezuelans, including the poor he champions.
Despite hundreds of billions of dollars in oil revenue -- $49 billion last year alone -- and social spending that includes free medical services, the country's poor are poorer, schools have not improved and the general standard of living has declined, according to a recent United Nations Human Development Report.”

Associated Press Worldstream, news report by Marcel Honore: “More than 1,000 attend opposition unity rally ahead of congressional elections,” October 15, 2005

“Critics accuse Chavez of becoming increasingly authoritarian and dangerously dividing this South American nation of 26 million along class lines. They say his left-leaning policies have increased poverty in the world's fifth-largest oil exporter.”
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Caracas has the highest murder rate in the world, it is so embarassing the government stopped publishing the stats.
 
WildCat said:
Caracas has the highest murder rate in the world, it is so embarassing the government stopped publishing the stats.
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I was in Caracas in 1992 when Chavez started his coup. I was in a hotel that overlooked a National Guard airport that Chavez and his troops attacked with Helicopters. The Hotel ended up being hit with 50 cal machine gun fire.
 
Texas said:
DC, I found the source for the report mentioned in your OP. That report was written by the National Institute Of Statistics which is also a Government ran organisation so all sources are from Chavez. the following are some of the international responses to the numbers:

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/ceprpov.htm
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I think the apologists dismiss this as anti-Chavez propaganda. Even Time Magazine and NY Times (not exactly conservative) are considered propaganda.
 
Texas said:
DC, I found the source for the report mentioned in your OP. That report was written by the National Institute Of Statistics which is also a Government ran organisation so all sources are from Chavez. the following are some of the international responses to the numbers:

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/ceprpov.htm
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LOL let me guess, you skipped all the boring text and went straight to the appendix with the quotes.......

LOL


but i did indeed wait with making a thread about it, until i readed the Cepal reports, which confirmed those numbers.

and when you want to know more about those quotes you brought up, read the boring text you skipped.

http://www.eclac.cl/publicaciones/default.asp?idioma=IN
 
Texas said:
I was in Caracas in 1992 when Chavez started his coup. I was in a hotel that overlooked a National Guard airport that Chavez and his troops attacked with Helicopters. The Hotel ended up being hit with 50 cal machine gun fire.
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oh why did they do that?
 
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