Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'

[DC]

Sorry, I blame the caffeine or the chili beef and egg taco I had for breakfast or something ...

My bad.

DR

breakfast ? thats the meal in the morning isnt it?
Chilli beef and tacos?
sound like your in paradise

 

[gdnp]

So IMHO if Hamas wins 2/3rds of the popular vote in the 2005 Gaza municipal elections, and every Palestinian on Earth knows who and what Hamas stands for, I don't accept the "get out of jail free card" people are trying to hand Gazans who gave Hamas 2/3rds of the popular vote in the 2005 Gaza Municipal elections.

Fair enough?

I think you are mistaken. I do not think we can say that Hamas won 2/3 of the popular vote--they won 2/3 of the seats. It looks to me like the vote was rigged so that whoever won a plurality of the vote would win a majority of the seats.

I don't understand the block voting system that they used, so I will demonstrate how this might happen in a simple "highest vote wins" system.

vote for seat #1:
Hamas candidate--44%
Fatah candidate--37%
11 Other candidates--19%

result: Hamas wins the seat.

vote for seat #2:
Hamas candidate--42%
Fatah candidate--47%
11 Other candidates--11%

result: Fatah wins the seat.

vote for seat #3:
Hamas candidate--46%
Fatah candidate--39%
11 Other candidates--15%

result: Hamas wins the seat.
​

In this example Hamas has won 2/3 of the seats despite winning only 44% of the vote. A similar situation may have occurred in the Gaza elections in question.

DR thought that they won 47%. Someone else seems to remember their winning a majority if Gaza. The real numbers do not appear to be easily accessible. Without those numbers, I do not think it is fair to assert that Hamas won 2/3 of the popular vote. The real number may have been much less.

Fair enough?

I would also question your inference that the vote for Hamas in municipal elections necessarily translates into unquestioned support for Hamas's national goals. I have voted for Republicans in local and county elections (most recently this year) even though I do not support their national agenda. Why? Because the local Republicans have no control over issues such as abortion policy, the local democratic party does not field viable candidates, and the county Democratic party is a corrupt machine. In the 2005 municipal elections the major issue seems to have been Fatah corruption, and Hamas was the viable opposition party.

 

[DC]

Wildcat

who are the founders of "Palestine Democratic Union" and what are their terrorist crimes?

 

[BirdStrike]

I think you are mistaken. I do not think we can say that Hamas won 2/3 of the popular vote--they won 2/3 of the seats. It looks to me like the vote was rigged so that whoever won a plurality of the vote would win a majority of the seats.

So now the 2005 Palestinian Municipal elections were "rigged." The goal posts keep moving and moving all over the place to give Palestinians a "get out of jail free card." Don't they.

I don't understand the block voting system that they used, so I will demonstrate how this might happen in a simple "highest vote wins" system.

So then you really don't know what you are posting about. You are just guessing based upon your opinion.

In this example Hamas has won 2/3 of the seats despite winning only 44% of the vote. A similar situation may have occurred in the Gaza elections in question.

So then you really don't know what you are posting about. You are just guessing based upon your opinion.

DR thought that they won 47%. Someone else seems to remember their winning a majority if Gaza. The real numbers do not appear to be easily accessible. Without those numbers, I do not think it is fair to assert that Hamas won 2/3 of the popular vote. The real number may have been much less.

Once again, you really don't know what you are posting about. You are just guessing based upon your opinion.

I would also question your inference that the vote for Hamas in municipal elections necessarily translates into unquestioned support for Hamas's national goals....In the 2005 municipal elections the major issue seems to have been Fatah corruption, and Hamas was the viable opposition party.

I've said this a thousands times and I shall say it again. Hamas didn't just drop out of a gumdrop tree one day. They've been around for over a decade sending waves of suicide bombers, holding parades, making pronouncements about "Raising the Banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." Every Palestinian on earth knows who Hamas is, and what their ultimate political agenda is. Turns out they are far more corrupt than Fatah - see: the bloody coup in Gaza, stealing international aid, taxing Gazans on aid they don't pay for or steal, etc, etc.

 

[DC]

Hamas did also alot other things, things that actually helped the Palestinians, i assume thats the main reason they are so popular.

and when you say, the Palestinians voted OVERWHELMINGLY for hamas, then it is you that has no clue what you are posting about.

but what do you expect from an US right wing neocon. (USA overwhelmingly elected a right wing neocon as president twice)

 

[gdnp]

So now the 2005 Palestinian Municipal elections were "rigged." The goal posts keep moving and moving all over the place to give Palestinians a "get out of jail free card." Don't they.

Just when I thought it might be possible to hold a rational discussion with you.

Perhaps "designed" would be a better term. I suspect Fatah designed the voting system so that as long as they maintained a plurality of support they could maintain a majority of seats. I may be wrong. This would, however, explain why the initial reports suggested that Fatah might lose there majority of seats but still be the biggest player while only later was it determined they would hold less than 1/3 of the seats.

So then you really don't know what you are posting about. You are just guessing based upon your opinion.

No, I am guessing based on my understanding of the available facts. You will notice that when I am unsure of something I state this. I have admitted that I do not understand the operation of the block voting system used by the Palestinians. Do you? Perhaps you would explain it to me. It would be more useful than making statements of FACT like "Hamas wins 2/3rds of the popular vote" that you yourself have admitted you have no data to support.

Turns out they are far more corrupt than Fatah - see: the bloody coup in Gaza, stealing international aid, taxing Gazans on aid they don't pay for or steal, etc, etc.

So I see you really don't know what you are posting about. You are just guessing based upon your opinion

 

[DC]

what i find interesting is that those Palestinians that are well known to hate people of other religion allow special reserved seats in the Parliament for Christians, and Christians are even alowed to run for aditional seats.

 

[ddt]

DING! WRONG. Hamas won 2/3rds of the vote in the 2005 Gaza Municipal elections. You are making the same mistake as everyone and quoting numbers from the 2006 Presidential elections.

Huh, I don't know about those municipal elections you keep harping on about. But the presidential elections were in 2005, when Abbas was elected, and the parliamentary elections were in January 2006. Those are the most recent elections and the most significant for forming of the PA government.

Now, do you really think these local elections were so important in this political game? I think not.

As to the big difference in seats gained by Hamas resp. Fatah with the Parliamentary elections, that's due to the system. Part of the seats were allotted by proportional representation - and in that part, Hamas only won 1 seat more than Fatah - and part of the seats were allotted to candidates per district. That's the part where Hamas won big time - as you see that in every country that uses a district system (e.g.: UK, Labour won a majority of seats with only 36% of the votes; US presidency, Obama won 2/3 of the electoral college with only 55%).

ETA: Look at the link DC gave. They have excellent PDF's there with everything you want to know about the voting system and the results.

 

[BirdStrike]

and when you say, the Palestinians voted OVERWHELMINGLY for hamas, then it is you that has no clue what you are posting about.

If winning 2/3rds of the vote in the 2005 Gaza municipal elections is not "overwhelming" then I dunno what is. No matter how many ways you try.

but what do you expect from an US right wing neocon. (USA overwhelmingly elected a right wing neocon as president twice)

I am not American, nor did I vote for Bush. But it's quite interesting that you try to label me a "US right wing neocon."

So I see you really don't know what you are posting about. You are just guessing based upon your opinion

I've forgotten more than you know about this issue. That is painfully clear from your posts.

Huh, I don't know about those municipal elections you keep harping on about.

Well then I suggest you go back and read all my posts before you debate them.

 

[DC]

If winning 2/3rds of the vote in the 2005 Gaza municipal elections is not "overwhelming" then I dunno what is. No matter how many ways you try.





I am not American, nor did I vote for Bush. But it's quite interesting that you try to label me a "US right wing neocon."





I've forgotten more than you know about this issue. That is painfully clear from your posts.




Well then I suggest you go back and read all my posts before you debate them.

can you pls link me to the document where i can see the election results?
and make sure 66.66+% of the votes went to Hamas, OK?

interesting that you try to label far more Palestinians as Hamas supporters than there actually are.

i would say once again it is your bias.

 

[gdnp]

Huh, I don't know about those municipal elections you keep harping on about.

BirdStrike keeps harping on these municipal elections because Hamas won 2/3 of the seats, and he has been using that as the basis of his claim that Hamas is supported by 2/3 of the residents of Gaza despite evidence to the contrary. If Hamas is only supported by 44% of the civilian population the justification for punishing the civilian population through the blockade is much weaker.

 

[BirdStrike]

BirdStrike keeps harping on these municipal elections because Hamas won 2/3 of the seats, and he has been using that as the basis of his claim that Hamas is supported by 2/3 of the residents of Gaza despite evidence to the contrary.

Evidence to the contrary, hilarious. You keep referring to the 2006 Legislative elections for the West Bank and Gaza, and I have been very specific that I am referring to the 2005 Municipal elections in Gaza.

To date you have provided zero documentation regarding the 2005 Municipal elections in Gaza.

You've even said the elections were "rigged" to fit your argument:

I think you are mistaken. I do not think we can say that Hamas won 2/3 of the popular vote--they won 2/3 of the seats. It looks to me like the vote was rigged so that whoever won a plurality of the vote would win a majority of the seats.

...then you proceed to support your position by illustrating how things "might have happened..."

I don't understand the block voting system that they used, so I will demonstrate how this might happen in a simple "highest vote wins" system.

Well I give up. This is a skeptical message board, not a psychics message board.

 

[gdnp]

Evidence to the contrary, hilarious. You keep referring to the 2006 Legislative elections for the West Bank and Gaza, and I have been very specific that I am referring to the 2005 Municipal elections in Gaza.

nope. wrong again. I have been referring to the municipal elections all along.

To date you have provided zero documentation regarding the 2005 Municipal elections in Gaza.

Nor have you. Yet you have yet to admit that you have no support for your repeated claim that Hamas won 2/3 of the popular vote.

You've even said the elections were "rigged" to fit your argument:

And I later admitted that my point was poorly phrased, and explained my meaning. Why don't you attack that? Oh, because you can't.

...then you proceed to support your position by illustrating how things "might have happened..."

One of the other threads has a nice explanation of combined district/proportional voting systems and how these can result in a minority party winning a majority of seats. The onus remains on you. You have repeatedly claimed that Hamas won 2/3 of the popular vote in municipal elections. Put up or shut up.

Well I give up. This is a skeptical message board, not a psychics message board.

Yep. we are skeptical of your claim that Hamas received 2/3 of the popular vote in the municipal elections where they first came to power in Gaza. I have demonstrated scenarios where they could have won 2/3 of the seats with a substantially smaller proportion of the vote, thus demonstrating the plausibility of their vote percentage being much smaller than your claim of fact. When you admitted that you did not know the percentage of votes that Hamas won I expected you to back down.

I have been doing this to give you that information. Guess what? I can't find them anywhere. If someone wishes to try to find the numbers for the 2005 Gaza municipal elections I would be willing to read them.

But in the very same post you repeated the lie:

...Gazans who gave Hamas 2/3rds of the popular vote in the 2005 Gaza Municipal elections.

Do you not understand the difference between popular vote and legislative seats?

 

[DC]

BirdStrike, i gave a link where you can find all the election datas very detailed, from Palestina. why dont you just link us to the paper and prove what you claim.
that 66% voted for Hamas.

 

[gdnp]

BirdStrike, i gave a link where you can find all the election datas very detailed, from Palestina. why dont you just link us to the paper and prove what you claim.
that 66% voted for Hamas.

I have searched that site, and if the data from the January 2005 municipal elections is there I can't find it.

 

[ddt]

I have searched that site, and if the data from the January 2005 municipal elections is there I can't find it.

Page with PDF with election results (note the elections started late 2004 in the West Bank)

Page with explanation about the system

That being said, I've not (yet) quite understood how the text about the system matches the PDFs with results. In any case, I note that the PDFs contain quite few Hamas elected councillors in the Gaza Strip municipalities.

 

[DC]

I have searched that site, and if the data from the January 2005 municipal elections is there I can't find it.

http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Municipal_Elections_Results_EN_(1).pdf

thats the results, but in total numbers.

ETA: ddt was faster

 

[BirdStrike]

In any case, I note that the PDFs contain quite few Hamas elected councillors in the Gaza Strip municipalities.

I'll tell ya what guys. I'm not your enemy, so while you are trying to find ways to negate the 2005 elections in Gaza I shall rely on the following links to support my position.

guardian

The Islamist party Hamas has won control of seven out of 10 councils in the Gaza Strip, dealing a crushing blow to the Fatah party of the Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas.

telegraph

Hamas, the militant political party sworn to destroying Israel, has stormed to victory in the first local elections to take place in Gaza. The party, which is against restoring talks with Israel in the current intifada, won seven out of 10 councils. The landslide follows a similar strong showing in earlier elections in the West Bank.

voanews

Initial results show the militant group Hamas has won an overwhelming victory in Palestinian local elections held Thursday in the Gaza Strip, winning nearly two-thirds of the local council seats in 10 districts. The results reflect the widespread support Hamas has in Gaza, and are also seen as a potential turning point for the Islamic group.

BBC

Palestinian militant group Hamas has won a huge victory in local polls in Gaza, final results show. Seen in Israel as a terrorist group, Hamas appears to have won roughly two-thirds of the seats it contested.

Reuters

Islamic militant group Hamas swept nearly two-thirds of the seats in the Gaza Strip's first council elections, defeating the dominant Fatah movement of President Mahmoud Abbas, unofficial results showed on Friday.

Results collated by Reuters for the 118 seats on 10 councils showed that candidates from the Hamas list had won just over 65 percent in Thursday's ballot against nearly 30 percent for Fatah and its allies. Some seats went to independents.

"Results collated by Reuters for the 118 seats on 10 councils showed that candidates from the Hamas list had won just over 65 percent in Thursday's ballot against nearly 30 percent for Fatah."


I can keep going if you want. But the thing is, I don't want to.

 

[ddt]

http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Municipal_Elections_Results_EN_(1).pdf

thats the results, but in total numbers.

I have the impression that you have to add the results of all four rounds. The four rounds are not consecutive stages, as you have with, e.g., the French presidency, but it just means that the elections were not held at the same time in all municipalities - at least, I see in round 1 and round 2 different names of municipalities.

Moreover, the election law changed between rounds 1/2 and rounds 3/4. You'll note that the PDFs for rounds 3 & 4 mention vote totals for lists, not for individual candidates - under the new law, lists ran for the councils and the seats were allotted proportionally. I haven't read yet how the old law worked. Anyway, claiming that Hamas (or "Change and Reform") had a certain number of votes is going to be a gruesome calculation.

ETA: ddt was faster

Well, it very well can be that I misinterpret things. The data presented doesn't look as clear-cut as with the presidential elections.

 

[ddt]

Well, I compiled a list of the various local authorities in the Gaza strip and the number of Hamas (or Change and Reform) councillors elected:

[table=head]District | Local | Round | Council size | Hamas
Gaza | Beit Hanoun | 1 | 13 | 0
| Beit Lahya | 2 | 13 | 7
North Gaza | Al-Zahra | 1 | 9 | 0
| Al-Mighraqa | 2 | 11 | 7
| Wadi Gaza | 2 | 9 | 0
| Um Annsr | 4 | 9 | 0
Middle Gaza | Al-Braij | 2 | 13 | 12
| Wadi-al-Salqa | 2 | 9 | 0
Deir Al-Balah | Al-Zawaydah | 1 | 13 | 0
| Al-Msdr | 1 | 9 | 0
| Al-Maghazi | 1 | 13 | 0
| Deir Al-Balah | 1 | 15 | 0
Khan Younis | Bani Suhaila | 1 | 13 | 0
| Khouza'a | 1 | 11 | 0
| Abasan al-Kabira | 2 | 13 | 0
| Abasan al-Jadida | 2 | 11 | 0
| Al-Fakhary | 4 | 11 | 0
| Al-Qarara | 4 | 13 | 6
Rafah | Al-Shouka | 1 | 11 | 0
| Al-Nasir Al-Byouk | 1 | 11 | 0
[/table]

That's not the number of voters, of course, but with these numbers it seems highly unlikely to me that Birdstrike's claim that Hamas achieved a 60%+ result in these elections were true.