• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Pilots For 9/11 Truth Present Their Math

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1248677650819981509

Well, here it is. This ought to be good for a chuckle. They're claiming a bank angle of 56 degrees and, from my quick glance at it, appear to have the impact occurring over by the helipad control tower rather than where it actually occurred.

I don't have the math chops to refute it so I'll leave that to the pros.

ETA: They're also throwing Morin under the bus, as their flight path goes over the Navy Annex although Morin clearly states that it was parallel to the outer edge.
 
Last edited:
release the hounds, !!:dl:

less than 22 degree bank too shallow according to witness testimony? really? and zero witnesses for a south of citgo path? what about THESE witnesses?

from
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon...ses/sgydk.html


Steve Anderson

Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke.

Does this soumd like a 22 degree NOC banked turn?

Deb Anlauf

location
14th-floor room in the Sheraton National Hotel in Arlington

Anlauf was watching TV coverage of the Trade Center burning shortly before 9:30 a.m. when she decided to return to her 14th-floor room from another part of the hotel. Once in her room, she heard a "loud roar" and looked out the window to see what was going on. "Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window," Anlauf said during a telephone interview from her hotel room this morning. "You felt like you could touch it; it was that close. It was just incredible. "Then it shot straight across from where we are (the sheraton) and flew right into the Pentagon. It was just this huge fireball that crashed into the wall (of the Pentagon). When it hit, the whole hotel shook."

Does this soumd like a 22 degree NOC banked turn?

James R. Cissell

''Out of my peripheral vision, I saw this plane coming in and it was low - and getting lower. ''If you couldn't touch it from standing on the highway, you could by standing on your car.'' ''I thought, 'This isn't really happening. That is a big plane.' Then I saw the faces of some of the passengers on board,'' Cissell said. ''I remember thinking, 'The World Trade Center was just the beginning, there's going to be more.' '' He remembers the helipad the plane flew over before smacking into the Pentagon was close enough to him that ''I could have thrown a baseball at it and hit it.'' While he remembers seeing the crash, Cissell remembers none of the sounds. ''It came in in a perfectly straight line,'' he said. ''It didn't slow down. I want to say it accelerated. It just shot straight in.''

Does this soumd like a 22 degree NOC banked turn?

Mike Dobbs

"... we saw a plane coming toward us, for about 10 seconds ... It was like watching a train wreck. I was mesmerized. ... At first I thought it was trying to crash land, but it was coming in so deliberately, so level... Everyone said there was a deafening explosion, but with the adrenaline, we didn't hear it."

Does this soumd like a 22 degree NOC banked turn?

Albert Hemphill

"Having just witnessed the CNN coverage of New York" "with a head full of the horror in New York, I walked in the office and stood peering out of the window looking at the Pentagon. ... As I stood there, I instinctively ducked at the extremely loud roar and whine of a jet engine spooling up. Immediately, the large silver cylinder of an aircraft appeared in my window, coming over my right shoulder as I faced the Westside of the Pentagon directly towards the heliport. The aircraft, looking to be either a 757 or Airbus, seemed to come directly over the annex, as if it had been following Columbia Pike - an Arlington road leading to Pentagon. The aircraft was moving fast, at what I could only be estimate as between 250 to 300 knots. All in all, I probably only had the aircraft in my field of view for approximately 3 seconds. The aircraft was at a sharp downward angle of attack, on a direct course for the Pentagon. It was "clean", in as much as, there were no flaps applied and no apparent landing gear deployed. He was slightly left wing down as he appeared in my line of sight, as if he'd just "jinked" to avoid something. As he crossed Route 110 he appeared to level his wings, making a slight right wing slow adjustment as he impacted low on the Westside of the building to the right of the helo, tower and fire vehicle around corridor 5. What instantly followed was a large yellow fireball accompanied by an extremely bass sounding, deep thunderous boom. The yellow fireball rose quickly as black smoke engulfed the entire Westside of the Pentagon, obscuring the whole of the heliport. I could feel the concussion and felt the shockwave of the blast impact the window of the Annex, knocking me against the desk

Does this soumd like a 22 degree NOC banked turn?

Mitch Mitchell

"Just as we got even with the Pentagon, I looked out to the front and saw, coming straight down the road at us, a huge jet plane clearly with American Airlines written on it, and it looked like it was coming in to hit us. I told my wife, 'It's going to hit the Pentagon.' It crossed about 100 feet in front of us and at about 20 feet altitude and we watched it go in. It struck the Pentagon, and there was no indication whatever that it was doing anything other than performing a direct attack on that building. The landing gear was up. There were no flaps down and it looked like a deadly missile on the final phase of its mission into the building."
"We saw what I estimate to be about the last seven seconds of the flight. It was a straight-in flight, angled slightly down, and there was--there was no intent to turn or to maneuver in any way. It was headed straight for its target and we were helpless to do anything about it but watch."

Does this soumd like a 22 degree NOC banked turn?

Terry Morin

I had just reached the elevator in the 5th Wing of BMDO/Federal Office Building (FOB) #2 – call it approximately 9:36 AM. I was already trying to make some sense out of the World Trade Tower attacks having heard about them on the radio. The news was sketchy, but the fact that it was a terrorist attack was already known. I then realized that I was wearing sunglasses and needed to go back to Lot 3 to retrieve my clear lenses. Since it was by no means a short walk to my car, I was upset with myself for being so distracted. Approximately 10 steps out from between Wings 4 and 5, I was making a gentle right turn towards the security check-in building just above Wing 4 when I became aware of something unusual. I can’t remember exactly what I was thinking about at that moment, but I started to hear an increasingly loud rumbling behind me and to my left. As I turned to my left, I immediately realized the noise was bouncing off the 4-story structure that was Wing 5. One to two seconds later the airliner came into my field of view. By that time the noise was absolutely deafening. I instantly had a very bad feeling about this but things were happening very quickly. The aircraft was essentially right over the top of me and the outer portion of the FOB (flight path parallel the outer edge of the FOB). Everything was shaking and vibrating, including the ground. I estimate that the aircraft was no more than 100 feet above me (30 to 50 feet above the FOB) in a slight nose down attitude. The plane had a silver body with red and blue stripes down the fuselage. I believed at the time that it belonged to American Airlines, but I couldn’t be sure. It looked like a 737 and I so reported to authorities. Within seconds the plane cleared the 8th Wing of BMDO and was heading directly towards the Pentagon. Engines were at a steady high-pitched whine, indicating to me that the throttles were steady and full. I estimated the aircraft speed at between 350 and 400 knots. The flight path appeared to be deliberate, smooth, and controlled. As the aircraft approached the Pentagon, I saw a minor flash (later found out that the aircraft had sheared off a portion of a highway light pole down on Hwy 110). As the aircraft flew ever lower I started to lose sight of the actual airframe as a row of trees to the Northeast of the FOB blocked my view. I could now only see the tail of the aircraft. I believe I saw the tail dip slightly to the right indicating a minor turn in that direction. The tail was barely visible when I saw the flash and subsequent fireball rise approximately 200 feet above the Pentagon. There was a large explosion noise and the low frequency sound echo that comes with this type of sound. Associated with that was the increase in air pressure, momentarily, like a small gust of wind. For those formerly in the military, it sounded like a 2000lb bomb going off roughly 1/2 mile in front of you. At once there was a huge cloud of black smoke that rose several hundred feet up. Elapsed time from hearing the initial noise to when I saw the impact flash was between 12 and 15 seconds.

Does this soumd like a 22 degree NOC banked turn?

Phillip Thompson

I fought in the Gulf War. I saw bombs and missiles explode overhead. ... I was sitting in heavy traffic in the I-395 HOV lanes about 9:45 a.m., directly across from the Navy Annex. I could see the roof of the Pentagon and, in the distance, the Washington Monument. I heard the scream of a jet engine and, turning to look, saw my driver’s side window filled with the fuselage of the doomed airliner. It was flying only a couple of hundred feet off the ground — I could see the passenger windows glide by. The plane looked as if it were coming in for a landing — cruising at a shallow angle, wings level, very steady. But, strangely, the landing gear was up and the flaps weren’t down. I knew what was about to happen, but my brain couldn’t quite process the information. Like the other commuters on the road, I was stunned into disbelief. The fireball that erupted upon impact blossomed skyward, and the blast hit us in a wave. I don’t remember hearing a sound. It was so eerily similar to another experience during the Gulf War — a missile strike that killed a Marine in my unit — that when I jumped out of my SUV, I felt like I’d jumped into my past and was in combat once again. ... Sirens howled in the distance. ... Then a gray C-130 flew overhead, setting off a new round of panic.

Does this soumd like a 22 degree NOC banked turn?

you talk about cherry picking witnesses. you ignore all but 13. release ALL of your interviews.
 
Last edited:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1248677650819981509

Well, here it is. This ought to be good for a chuckle. They're claiming a bank angle of 56 degrees and, from my quick glance at it, appear to have the impact occurring over by the helipad control tower rather than where it actually occurred.

I knew Knew KNEW they were gonna move the impact spot. It was a 100% certainty. Anyhoo, reheat will chime in shortly and rip it apart.

For proof they were trying to weasel their way out of the "official story" impact spot, refer to this post
 
Last edited:
Does this look like a North of Citgo approach/North of heliport impact?

Awmap.png
 
First of all this was written for "twoofers". That's the only people who will believe it.

Just as predicted it is a combination of disregarding inconvenient witnesses, illusions, incorrect radius calculations and pure unadulterated horse manure. It's not surprising at all that it was done as a cartoon. They could not write this and pull the shenanigans shown.

The FIRST path shows the aircraft impacting near the helipad (pardon me, flying over the helipad) That radius is close enough and the calculations appear to be accurate. So that still rather extreme bank angle is planted in the viewers mind as being aerodynamically possible at FDR speeds, no less! As an after thought it is then mentioned that well, that's not exactly what happened, we'll now adjust it to the impact point.

Now, when it switches to the proper impact point, the razzle dazzle crap begins. The radius is WRONG. The radius for that flight path is approximately 7025'. That computes to a bank angle of 67.4 degrees, 2.6 G's at 460 knots. That flight path from Paik CAN NOT be adjusted to an increased radius and still pass North of the station and to the impact point. Of course, it can be flown at a slower speed and that is implied throughout the cartoon. OHhhhhhh, the innuendo of how that lines up nicely with a runway at Reagan. I'm truly impressed.

Where those huge turn radii and very shallow bank angles are derived from in the latter portion of the cartoon is anyone's guess. It is never clearly stated how and where those radii were derived nor to what flight path they apply. Maybe they are just ignoring Paik (well, his statements are ignored anyway except for what supports the delusion) and the impact point. They can draw any flight path they want if it ignores key witnesses. What does that prove?

A flight path to the North of that station from a straight approach would have never been questioned as to it's aerodynamic probability. It's adhering to where the witnesses place it that makes it aerodynamically impossible.

Note that no vertical pull-up was addressed at all throughout the entire charade. There is a good reason for that. I don't need to specify that as most understand that the calculated bank angle and G forces for the point to point flight path must be maintained in order to arrive at the destinated point. G must be added (as all of the witnesses stated that it was at a very low altitude) in order to fly over the building.

The innuendo of some type of exotic aircraft design was to be expected. It's funny that the witnesses describe a transport category aircraft, but that might be an inconvenient fact. We'll put exotic aircraft in anyway just for grins. Oh, and we'll also throw in a large aircraft at about 35 degrees of bank after take-off executing an idiotic low altitude turn just to show them it can be done. We just won't tell everyone that that's a lesser bank and G than any of our postulated turns require when we adhere to what the witnesses said.

Oh, the irony. The Ranquisamo clones will be all over this. They now have poof that the "Official" flight path was impossible, but the North Flight path is very reasonable. Why? Because Ranquisamo said so and it's in a cartoon.

 
Last edited:
"0 witnesses placed the aircraft on a south path".

TLB, this is a lie, yes?
 
"we do not know aircraft type, weight, speed" etc etc.

Another lie.

CIT claims it took at least 10 seconds to get from the Navy Annex to the Pentagon, which means a maximum speed of 185 mph.
 
I also note they are ignoring the altitude changes claimed by CIT.

And what's with the claim that a 757 can't fly at 460 knots?
 
The only plausible flight path that will work IN THE HORIZONTAL is exactly the one that we've seen for over a year. It is the same one that is now being referred to as e^n's flight path.

As I stated above that one is 67.4 degrees of bank, 2.6 G's at 460 knots. That path COMPLETELY ignores Morin. That bank angle and G at that speed MUST be maintained all of the way from Paik's position to impact. That does not account for a pull-up and flyover which would require more G.

All of the other horse manure in that cartoon is just twoofer razzle dazzle, nothing more.
 
Last edited:
It pleases me greatly that the Ranquisamo gaggle finds the need to cast aspersions at my anonymity and misquote what I've said in order to deceive the ignorant. Here is the intentional misquote....

Here's the word reasonable in my paper....

....The airspeeds are speeds that cover the range of all reasonable speeds possible by any aircraft described by any witness. ....

Note that this turns into Reheat says these flight paths (as depicted in the cartoon) are reasonable. That's not what I said at all jackasses!

Of course, the flight paths depicted in my paper are not reasonable at all, but in adhering to witnesses statement there was no choice. Since they adhere precisely to what the witnesses (as a group) describe and the fact that they are NOT REASONABLE is what makes this entire charade a joke. I can not make an transport category aircraft not stall due to high G and I can not adjust the G limits or stall speed.

This is just one of the many lies that must be told in order to deceive the ignorant and continue the fraud......
 
Last edited:
Hi Tino! Did you learn yet that you can't counter one's argument by putting a 'rolls eyes' smilie on your post? :rolleyes: See, nothing happened. The pfffft cartoon still sucks.
 
I see they begin with "facts"

1) "All witnesses saw an aircraft"

2) "13 witnesses place aircraft north of Citgo"

3) "Zero witnesses place aircraft on South AP"

Well, I guess I can go along with number one, but the remaining two are complete horse manure. Among the 13 "witnesses" is Paik, and he did not see a plane north of the Citgo. Terry Morin is one of those witnesses and he did not see a plane north of the Citgo. Quite frankly the only witness to consistently claim seeing a plane north of the Citgo is Lagasse. There are earlier accounts by most of these witnesses which when compared to statements made 7 years later have obviously changed somewhat. Most of these 13 confirm that they saw the plane hit the Pentagon and many saw it clip the poles at the intersection. Claim number three is just a flat out lie. So much for facts.

Next they assert it is a logical fallacy to claim that the plane observed by the witnesses north of the Citgo was a 757.

Logical fallacy - "an argument which, being demonstrably flawed in its logic or form, renders the whole argument invalid"

Well, I can demonstrate with flight plans, ATC and radar records that a Boeing 757 identified as American Airlines flight 77 took off from Dulles International (IAD) at 10:20:22 and can be followed with unbroken radar coverage up until 13:37:47 (DCA last return) at a point just a few hundred feet west of Paik. So it is no logical fallacy to claim it was a 757, because it was a 757.

The next problem I see is that they estimate the speed at 460 knots at the beginning, but then claim that the average speed in the FDR is less, drawing the conclusion that the speed was most likely lower. Of course the average speed was lower than 460 knots because the plane was accelerating. This is a major flaw in their presentation and misleading to say the least.

speedmodel.jpg


The fact that the speed is not constant, but increasing, invalidates the equation used by them to estimate the bank angle. I’ll do another post to illustrate this, but it is enough now to simply say that the equation used by P4T assumes constant speed. Even at that, a bank angle of 44 - 59 degrees was not described by any witness that I am aware of.

I will examine the equation they used in a later post (it is Christmas you know), but for now, I just wanted to address the underlying facts and assumptions used. In short, horse manure. Nice cartoon though.
 
Last edited:
Wave hi to Tino,

Hi tino, i know you are reading this thread right now. we can still see the activity of banned members, you effed up on the math in your video there, You only did two dimensions, the arc, you ignored the pull up. sorry no good. start again.

:dl:


YOU get an F
yougetanF.jpg


Tinos "ride" unpimped

 
Last edited:
Jeez what a bunch of idiots! Do they actually think their little cartoon proved anything at all (except for the fact that they a morons, delusional and frauds)?

I had a good Christmas, but this made it even better. Thanks Ranquisamo (did I invent that one?)!
 
Here's the link to the presentation that exposes your pseudoskeptism.

Of course, Reheat's idiocy is so clearly bs that it can be refuted without any math at all (see Regarding "Debunking the North of Citgo Theory").

I eagerly await your cognitive dissonance and illogical responses.

:)
So are you telling me that "exposes your pseudoskeptism" is MORE IMPORTANT than uncovering MASS MURDER?
It seems they have an oxygen deprivation issue on the planet you live on.
 
It seems on Christmas EVe Captain Bobby had nothing better to do then to obsess on SEVERAL JREF posters and the fact that he is going to releasae address info, phone numbers, etc.
My biotch is never to far away Captain Bobby so pop on by.
 
It seems on Christmas EVe Captain Bobby had nothing better to do then to obsess on SEVERAL JREF posters and the fact that he is going to releasae address info, phone numbers, etc.
My biotch is never to far away Captain Bobby so pop on by.

Well, my information is already public information. I've invited Rob and Craig to stop by any time they wish for a cup of joe. Offer is still open.
 
In their presentation, P4T uses the following equation to estimate the bank angle:

[latex]$$ \theta = arctan \left({\frac {\left(\frac{v^2}{r}\right)}{11.26}}}\right) $$[/latex]

At the heart of the equation is the following:

[latex]$$\frac{v^2}{r} $$[/latex]

I'll leave it to the aeronautical guys to determine if the first equation is the proper one to use in this case. It is the core component in the second equation that I want to discuss. It is a simplified equation for centripetal acceleration. The following diagram explains the concept a little further in 2 dimensions.

centripacc.jpg


I did this graphic a number of months ago when P4T injected the use of the centripetal acceleration formula in their previous venture. What they missed then, as now, is that it holds ONLY when velocity (or speed) is constant and the vector is limited to two dimensions. In this case, neither is the case. Whether it is eyewitness accounts (even theirs) or the FDR, the plane was accelerating towards the Pentagon, and it was dropping in altitude.

What this means is that we cannot ignore the three dimensional components of the veloctiy vector.

[latex]$$ \frac{v^2}{r} = \frac{\left(\frac{ds}{dt}\right)^2}{r} $$[/latex]

[latex]$$ \frac{ds}{dt} $$[/latex] is a vector which is three dimensional. To solve for g-forces, each component, [latex]$$ {ds}_x $$[/latex], [latex]$$ {ds}_y $$[/latex] and [latex]$$ {ds}_z $$[/latex] have to be resolved individually.

So go back to the calculator P4T and let me know if you need any help resolving the components of the acceleration vector. The equation you are using is invalid for multiple reasons, the least of which is you are not dealing with a circular path in two dimensions for a constant velocity.

Note: Anyone know how to get parentheses to work right in latex? I could not seem to get them to work right.

Note 2: Never mind, got it figured out :D
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom