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SPR Study Day - The Psychology of the Sceptic

I recognize the thread has moved on and I’m not sure if this really applies any more, but I found this paper, and it reminded me of this debate. Of course, it applies equally to both sides of the argument. Plus, I like the title.

“Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments”, Kruger, Dunning, Cornell University
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1999, Vol. 77, No. 6. 1121-1134


From the abstract:

"People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.”


http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
 
An exciting update to the OP:

http://monkeywah.typepad.com/paranormalia/

"James Randi commented on my SPR talk on skeptic psychology (November 2 08), in which, among other things, I suggested that an unacknowledged fear of psi may motivate some skeptics. Here is his comment and my response.

I read this unsigned essay with great interest. Therein, I found a few canards of which I'd not previously heard. For example, I can assure the author that I, as a devoted skeptic but not a cynic, personally have no fear nor worry whatsoever that claimed psi phenomena might turn out to be real, as he thought might be the case with some. In fact, upon being presented with firm evidence establishing this wonderful circumstance, I would delight in trying to solve the modi operandi that might bring about telepathy, precognition, or other such phenomena.

The author writes: "Sceptics - identified as such from prior personality profiling - have been found unconsciously to influence the results of psi experiments by consistently producing results lower than would be expected by chance." Using that same standard, substitute "believers" for "sceptics," and "higher" for "lower." I believe this is properly described by an old saying involving interchangeable sauce for geese and ganders...?

The "It's the kind of thing I would not believe in even if it were true" statement is, to me, unforgiveable, and I cannot embrace that thought. I am a rationalist, and proper evidence will establish, for me, any claim. For the last decade, through the James Randi Educational Foundation, I have offered a one-million-dollar prize to any person who can establish that any paranormal, supernatural, or occult claim is true. The fact that no one has won this prize, nor even passed the preliminary stage of testing, either indicates that no one can do so, or that a suitable applicant has yet to apply. I prefer the latter possibility, though I admittedly have no belief in these wonders, because all that I've seen in my 80-plus years, have been the results of trickery or self-delusion.

The author also writes: "A great deal of what debunkers write in their books is not really researched at all closely, but simply lifted from earlier books." In respect to this comment, I refer you to the geese-and-ganders sauce application mentioned above... I note, too, that the author quotes extensively from staunch believers, and expresses little - if any - doubt that they speak sooth.

True skeptics are always willing to be shown, as I am. And it may happen, though I note that none of the prominent figures of today such as Uri Geller have expressed any interest in accepting my challenge. That, in itself, speaks loudly to the skeptic. But then, Geller appears to be making a bid to tell all, since he now only accepts the designation "entertainer" or "showman," not wanting to be described as "psychic." What will the next phase of his newly-adopted stance involve, I wonder?

James Randi.


James, thanks for responding to this. I was interested to hear your comments and I have a few small rejoinders.

'... substitute "believers" for "sceptics," and "higher" for "lower." I believe this is properly described by an old saying involving interchangeable sauce for geese and ganders...?'

I agree that in a general sense bias works both ways. Here I was talking about its effect in psi experiments. Mean scores in card guessing, for instance, would suggest that a person is showing no evidence of psi. Consistent above-mean scores might indicate the action of psi, while below-mean scores is thought to imply that a person is unconsciously suppressing it. In these three scenarios, both the latter two are held to be paranormal.

I know skeptics have difficulty with this 'psi-missing' idea. It requires accepting that getting none right over a large number of card guessing trials, where five is expected by chance, is as abnormal as getting ten right. This is fairly well accepted in the parapsychological community, which it would surely not be if it was statistically unsound. It can be argued that abnormally poor scores are just the negative tail of random guessing scores, but if that was the case, they would be as common as the above average scores, when in fact they are quite rare. Also, they would not correspond to skeptic psychological profiles, which however they often do.

'The author also writes: "A great deal of what debunkers write in their books is not really researched at all closely, but simply lifted from earlier books." In respect to this comment, I refer you to the geese-and-ganders sauce application mentioned above...'

I could have expressed myself more succinctly. Of course both skeptics and paranormalists form their own communities, talking and listening to each other, as in any controversy.

My complaint relates to the claim of skeptic authors to offer expert guidance about paranormal reports, for the benefit of scientists who don't believe them but need expert guidance. This claim is suspect, when debunkers do so little direct investigation, and instead are often content to recycle alleged exposes and confessions which, in many cases, even a little critical thinking would show to be problematic. By contrast paranormalists really do make an effort to get to grips with abnormal experiences first hand, and with the primary sources.

A small example is your paper on the 1984 Columbus 'poltergeist' incident, which attributed the effects to pranks played by a 14-year old girl to attract attention, and is widely quoted in skeptic literature on the topic. Another main source is a chapter in a book by another magician, Milbourne Christopher, whose examples of hoaxes and confessions seem to be mostly gleaned from news reports, and again is widely quoted. That's pretty much it, apart from references to the Borley and Amityville cases, which arguably aren't typical of the poltergeist genre.

It's interesting that neither you nor Christopher, who tried to debunk the 1958 Seaford, Long Island case, gained entrance to the house in question or actually saw the incidents that caused all the fuss. By contrast this type of thing has been witnessed close up by a number of psychical investigators - eg Roll, Gauld and Cornell, Scott Rogo, Owen, Playfair and Grosse, etc - sometimes on several separate occasions, leading them to consider it a genuinely paranormal phenomenon. It's not clear to me that it needs skilled magicians to catch out teenagers playing tricks, or why their armchair analysis should be the more reliable.

'True skeptics are always willing to be shown, as I am. And it may happen, though I note that none of the prominent figures of today such as Uri Geller have expressed any interest in accepting my challenge.'

I've never thought that Geller was a good reason for believing in the genuineness of psi, or any single self-professed 'psychic' for that matter. But could their reluctance to be tested by you have something to do with the fact that they don't trust you? In that case, it's not so much an indication of psi's non-existence as the short-comings of your challenge as a vehicle for advancing our understanding.

'...proper evidence will establish, for me, any claim.' What is 'proper evidence'? What James Randi says it is? Why not the tests and investigations devised by scientists who believe it to be a genuine entity? Or for that matter other magicians, like Robert-Houdin, who believed the clairvoyant Alex Didier to be genuine, or J.N. Maskelyne, who debunked seance mediums, but then privately experimented with table turning and, far from being convinced by Michael Faraday's explanation - which skeptics take to be the last word - thought a genuinely psychokinetic effect was at work.

It's difficult to reconcile your apparent openness in this posting with the aggressive polemic for which you are better known. My understanding is that your fame and influence rests on your skill in persuading people not to take psi claims seriously, which is hardly compatible with encouraging a genuine demonstration. The idea that the million-dollar challenge is a meaningful test is surely an illusion. Even if, by some fluke, someone actually did win the prize, what then? Would your followers believe it, or would they just say, poor chap, it got him in the end?

best wishes

Robert McLuhan"
 
...I agree that in a general sense bias works both ways. Here I was talking about its effect in psi experiments. Mean scores in card guessing, for instance, would suggest that a person is showing no evidence of psi. Consistent above-mean scores might indicate the action of psi, while below-mean scores is thought to imply that a person is unconsciously suppressing it. In these three scenarios, both the latter two are held to be paranormal.

I know skeptics have difficulty with this 'psi-missing' idea. It requires accepting that getting none right over a large number of card guessing trials, where five is expected by chance, is as abnormal as getting ten right. This is fairly well accepted in the parapsychological community, which it would surely not be if it was statistically unsound...
This just demonstrates that the "parapsychological community" is either uneducated, blind or naive when it comes to probability and statistics.
"Ask not for whom the bell curve tolls, it tolls for thee."
Otto Palindrome (1881-1991)
 
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It's not clear to me that it needs skilled magicians to catch out teenagers playing tricks, or why their armchair analysis should be the more reliable.

Mr. McLuhan shows here exactly why he is wrong. If peer review is need, and these teenagers are pulling off magician's tricks, then obviously magicians would be very useful in catching the said teenagers in their tricks.

I'm not saying eyewitness testimony is completely useless, because those conducting their 'armchair analysis' used their testimony to figure out the trick. If, as these magicians have postulated, it was not necessary to visit the house. What I mean is, if it were people doing these things, the important thing to have access to would be the people.

Consistent above-mean scores might indicate the action of psi, while below-mean scores is thought to imply that a person is unconsciously suppressing it. In these three scenarios, both the latter two are held to be paranormal.

Who thinks that means that a person is unconsciously suppressing it? The latter two are held to be paranormal by who? Psi researchers? I'm not sure what logic they are using to say that below mean scores is evidence of psi, but it would seem like they want to say if they get above mean it is psi, and if they get below mean it is psi. Isn't that moving the goalposts?

What is 'proper evidence'? What James Randi says it is? Why not the tests and investigations devised by scientists who believe it to be a genuine entity? Or for that matter other magicians, like Robert-Houdin, who believed the clairvoyant Alex Didier to be genuine, or J.N. Maskelyne, who debunked seance mediums, but then privately experimented with table turning and, far from being convinced by Michael Faraday's explanation - which skeptics take to be the last word - thought a genuinely psychokinetic effect was at work.

Proper evidence is recordable, repeatable, verifiable, and clear. It is the same standard of evidence one would expect from any field of research. For all the claims that skeptics just follow other skeptics, I've still not seen any reason we should lower the standards that we apply to each other, when talking about psi. How can it be that some skeptics, who come to believe the presence of psi powers, are just following skeptic leaders?

It's difficult to reconcile your apparent openness in this posting with the aggressive polemic for which you are better known. My understanding is that your fame and influence rests on your skill in persuading people not to take psi claims seriously, which is hardly compatible with encouraging a genuine demonstration.

So Mr. Randi's doubt is again to blame? Offering a million dollars isn't compatible with encouraging a genuine demonstration? Taking a lot of time to consider these challenges and looking into these claims, something most respectable scholars will not do, isn't compatible with encouraging a genuine demonstration? The fact that Mr Randi, or any other skeptic, is actually listening to the people making the claims as opposed to just ignoring them, is a testament to how skeptics encourage demonstrations. They demand them.

Even if, by some fluke, someone actually did win the prize, what then? Would your followers believe it, or would they just say, poor chap, it got him in the end?

Again, this man is apparently uncomfortable with the idea that skeptics are a community of more or less equals, as he keeps characterizing them in the more comfortable label of 'follower'. This is also useless speculation that will of course fit the bias Mr. McLuhan has for 'skeptics'. What if advanced aliens came down to earth and said, "Nope, there is no such thing as psi abilities. We tested for it seriously for about 2,000 years and not only found that there was no evidence of it, but also found all these laws of physics that prevent it."

Would psi followers just say, "Oops, we were wrong. But how could we have known?" This too, is useless speculation that will fit the bias of whomever is answering the question.
 
I know skeptics have difficulty with this 'psi-missing' idea. It requires accepting that getting none right over a large number of card guessing trials, where five is expected by chance, is as abnormal as getting ten right.

The problem I have with psi-missing is if you define "psi" in terms of an exchange of information, then an absence of information can only be seen as a failure.

This is fairly well accepted in the parapsychological community, which it would surely not be if it was statistically unsound.

Hmm, parapsychologists are hardly overjoyed when they get below chance results. Most have enough intelligence to write them up in terms of negative findings, rather than saying "hoorah, psi-missing!"

(edit: having said that, I went to check what kind of reaction they do give, and the first paper I read gives more space to explaining psi-missing in terms of what went wrong (interpersonal relationships, PK effect on the new RNG - yes, really) than it did for explaining the experiment itself)
 
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Irving Langmuir on Rhine's file drawer, "He showed me filing cabinets--a whole row of them. Maybe hundreds of thousands of cards. He has a filing cabinet that contained nothing but these things that were done in sealed up envelopes. And they were the ones that gave the average of five."
 
McLuhan: "Consistent above-mean scores might indicate the action of psi, while below-mean scores is thought to imply that a person is unconsciously suppressing it. In these three scenarios, both the latter two are held to be paranormal."

tyr_13: "Who thinks that means that a person is unconsciously suppressing it? The latter two are held to be paranormal by who? Psi researchers? I'm not sure what logic they are using to say that below mean scores is evidence of psi, but it would seem like they want to say if they get above mean it is psi, and if they get below mean it is psi. Isn't that moving the goalposts?"


I'm a little disappointed in Randi for not knowing that Mr. McLuhan was referring to the sheep-goat effect. I would have thought someone of Randi's stature would have picked up on that. I'm wondering how much Randi really knows about parapsychology research...

I'm not as disappointed in tyr_13 for not knowing jack squat, he's just an average skeptic after all. But Randi is supposed to be amazing. Well I'm not amazed.

Here is a little on the sheep-goat effect for Randi & friends.

"The data convinced me. Repeatedly, average ESP scores of subjects who rejected any possibility of ESP success (whom I called goats) were lower than average ESP scores of all other subjects (whom I called sheep). This was inexplicable by the physical laws we knew; it implied unexplored processes in the universe, an exciting new field for research. From then on, naturally, my primary research interest was parapsychology." -Gertrude Schmeidler

"Her studies, which were conducted over a nine year period and have since been replicated, showed an unquestionable difference between the "sheep" whose scores fell above chance expectation and "goats" who scored below chance levels. The phenomenon of psi-missing is thought to be a psychological effect in which psychic material is repressed from consciousness.

In a review of 17 experiments testing the hypothesis that subjects who believed in ESP would show superior ESP performance compared to subjects who did not believe in ESP, psychologist John Palmer found that the predicted pattern occurred in 76% of the experiments, and all six of the experiments with individually significant outcomes were in the predicted direction. These findings suggest an overall statistical significance for this effect.

It is important to realize, however, that the sheep-goat studies do not necessarily distinguish those who believe in ESP from those who do not. In most studies, the "sheep" were not "true believers"; they merely accepted the possibility that ESP could occur in the test situation. On the other hand, many of the "goats" were willing to accept that ESP could occur between people who loved each other, or in certain times of crisis; but they rejected all possibility that ESP would manifest for them in their particular test situation."
http://www.williamjames.com/Science/ESP.htm (bold mine)

The sheep-goat effect turned upside down

Abstract

Obtained sheep-goat scores (sheep being those who believed in ESP while goats were Ss who did not) from 40 Ss aged 16-64 yrs who were then tachistoscopically shown ambiguous subsensory targets to mask the actual experimental task. They were asked to respond with ESP symbols. 20 Ss knew they were taking an ESP test and were encouraged to achieve high ESP scores. The other 20 Ss were told they were taking a subsensory perception test and that high scores would help to disprove the ESP hypothesis. Results show a significant interaction between Ss' attitudes toward ESP success and their understanding of the purpose of the experiment. Goat scores across conditions were significant. Deviations were above mean chance expectation for sheep in the prove-ESP and goats in the disprove -ESP conditions and were below for sheep in the disprove-ESP and goats in the prove-ESP conditions. These data challenge the allegation that ESP effects can be attributed to cues from the experimenter. (25 ref)

The Effect of a Change in Pro Attitude on Paranormal Performance: A Pilot Study Using Naive and Sophisticated Skeptics

Abstract—A computerized symbol-identifying experiment was conducted to test Thalbourne’s (2004) concept of the ‘‘pro attitude’’ (an attitude towards a favorable outcome in a normal or paranormal task). Participants were required to identify the correct symbols randomly presented on computer in a run of 50 trials. Skeptics were given a second run. After each run, hit-rates were presented on screen. A subgroup of randomly selected skeptics were informed that scores, if sufficiently high or low, indicate statistical evidence of psi. It was hypothesized that news of this information (the ‘‘treatment’’) would alter the pro attitude of some skeptics and lead them to try to score at chance, rather than risk producing scores that might indicate psi. A significant correlation between hitrate and belief in psi after treatment (but not before treatment) was found for ‘‘converted’’ skeptics (i.e., ‘‘new believers’’ in psi). Post hoc evidence showed a significantly high hit-rate on symbol identification after conversion (but not before conversion). These results suggest a ‘‘conversion effect’’ in some skeptics, thus indicating a change in pro attitude. It was concluded that further research on the pro attitude is warranted since evidence of same may help identify sources of paranormal effects.

Personality characteristics of sheep and goats

Summary—A great deal of parapsychological research has investigated the effect upon extrasensory perception (ESP), of the so-called ‘sheep-goat variable’ (SGV), that is, belief in the existence of ESP, either in the abstract or with respect to one’s own psychic ability. However, very little purely psychological research has examined the question of possible personality differences between ‘sheep’ (the ‘believers’) and ‘goats’ (the ‘disbelievers’). Personality factors are important both as potentially confounding variables, and as independent predictors of psi-scoring which could be used in combination with the SGV.

This paper reports two sets of experiments of the pilot-confirmation type: a grand total of 552 subjects were administered various personality tests plus one or other of two ‘sheep-goat scales’. Replicated results indicated that the SGV was related to extraversion-introversion and to conservatism-radicalism: sheep tend to be more extraverted and more conservative than goats, who tend towards introversion and intellectual skepticism.

A report on a sentence completion form of sheep-goat attitude scale

Abstract

Following Schmeidler's lead, the experimenters separated subjects to be used in an ESP test on the basis of their attitudes of belief in ESP, disbelief, and doubt (conflict group). The separation was made on the basis of a sentence-completion scale. A total of 39 subjects, all but two high school students, were used in the experiment in which each one attempted to identify a different random order of ESP targets sealed in an opaque envelope. The total average score was not significantly different from chance expectation, but there was a tendency for the believers to score above that level and for the disbelievers to score at or below it (P = .011).

Children's psi and personality variables

Abstract

In a correlation of precognition and anxiety scores for junior high and high school students, it was found that high-anxiety students scored better than low-anxiety students, whereas mid-anxiety students scored the worst. In a meta-analysis, Defense Mechanism Test scores correlated with ESP; low defensiveness indicated higher ESP. Using Cattell's high school Personality Questionnaire, plus ESP tests, it was found that warm, sociable, self-assured, easygoing students scored well; aloof, critical, insecure, uptight students scored below chance, also demonstrating ESP. "Happy-go-lucky" students scored positively; serious-minded students scored negatively.
 
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I'm a little disappointed in Randi for not knowing that Mr. McLuhan was referring to the sheep-goat effect. I would have thought someone of Randi's stature would have picked up on that. I'm wondering how much Randi really knows about parapsychology research...

I'm not as disappointed in tyr_13 for not knowing jack squat, he's just an average skeptic after all. But Randi is supposed to be amazing. Well I'm not amazed.

Thank you for providing that information showing that it is parapsychologists who believe negative results are proof of psi. Thank you also for resorting to veiled insults, as psi-promoters are want to do. Thank you for derailing your own thread.

You, and other psi promoters (or any other form of woo), continue to make believe that people like Randi are the be all and end all for skepticism. You seem to believe that if you can show that Randi doesn't know something, then obviously skepticism is the wrong stance to take. Obviously, this is fallacious logic. We are not a hierarchy.

It is interesting that you say I know jack-squat and then post up links showing that what I was guessing was in fact the case. Congratulations.

I'm not disappointed in you. I'm am amused, because the irony this thread has provided is deep, tasty, and filling.
 
How desperately does one need to believe in psi? I'm open to the possibility, but what is proffered as evidence is so lacking in any meat -- nay, any meat and bones -- that one may only conclude that the believer's desperation is abnormal. Now what does that prove?


M.
 
Just out of curiosity, Limbo, do you actually read the studies that you reference? For example, you quote studies as 'evidence' for a particular effect that actually are negative - i.e. significant differences aren't found when testing for the sheep-goat effect.

Linda
 
On further reflection, sorry about saying it was a derail. It does relate to the 'psychology of the skeptic' doesn't it? My bad.
 
... I'm wondering how much Randi really knows about parapsychology research...

Obviously, much, much more than you do. Even I, an 'average skeptic", knows more than you do about the research.
 
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The problem I have with psi-missing is if you define "psi" in terms of an exchange of information, then an absence of information can only be seen as a failure.

Ah I see the objection! Nah, on the PMIR model, and indeed most others I have seen discussed, it is assumed the target gains the knowledge to then avoid the hit, at an unconscious level. The information is still transfered: otherwise one would assume something with the scope of random results.

I actually ran some tests for psi-missing once. I noticed that one friend over several years, a wargamer, seemed to have an uncanny lack of success with die throws. I was playing a game with home one day hwere rolling high on an ordinary six sided dice was good - RISK kind of thing, and watched as he kept rolling multiples ones. This made me curious - the die should have been biased towards sixes (ordinary dice with indented spots, a moment sthought will show why.)

So I made him roll 6d6 seventy times, in a sequence. 1st roll was trying for ones, 2nd for twos, and so on all the way through, repeating the target sequence. I was expecting to see 70 hits - he managed 21. Something was clearly up. Unfortunely he was a) incredibly bored and b) unwilling to countenance a psi possibility, insisiting he just had lousy luck. :) I never got to repeat the experiment...

Shame, if he was always that unlucky and could have repeated his dismal performance in future trials it would have made good evidence for psi missing!

Obviously in a metanalysis, psi missing and psi hits might well average out. James Alcock mentions this possibility I think in Science & Supernature -- but if the psi missing is consistent, and applies to a single subject, then the objection loses all weight.

cj x
 
Huh? Mathematicians are in a better position to do peer review on mathematics papers because they have relevant mathematical experience. They have more keenly honed mathematical perception, just as a psychic would have more keenly honed psychic perception.

And a flying pig would have a more keenly honed ability to fly. Let's establish the existence of any psychic abilities at all before you limit who is able to judge them.
 
Originally Posted by plumjam View Post
Huh? Mathematicians are in a better position to do peer review on mathematics papers because they have relevant mathematical experience. They have more keenly honed mathematical perception, just as a psychic would have more keenly honed psychic perception.
And a flying pig would have a more keenly honed ability to fly. Let's establish the existence of any psychic abilities at all before you limit who is able to judge them.

'Plumjam' means and is effectively saying that in the context of putative psychic realities 'pseudo-skeptics of psychic realities' lack the qualifications and experience to determine their existence or evaluate them when such determination and evaluation must necessarily be by a 'genuine skeptic of psychic realities' and peer or higher level based.
 
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'Plumjam' means and is effectively saying that in the context of putative psychic realities 'pseudo-skeptics of psychic realities' lack the qualifications and experience to determine their existence or evaluate them when such determination and evaluation must necessarily be by a 'genuine skeptic of psychic realities' and peer or higher level based.

It has yet to be shown that there are any such 'psychic realities'.
 
It has yet to be shown that there are any such 'psychic realities'.

As I pointed out years ago on Bad Psychics there is no doubt at all we all experience psychic reality. You are experiencing a number of psychic processes right now. Yet when I added 2 +2 they still did not give me the money! :( Now psychical processes, they are rather harder to demonstrate. :)

Do I get an award for pointless semantics? :)

cj x
 
As I pointed out years ago on Bad Psychics there is no doubt at all we all experience psychic reality. You are experiencing a number of psychic processes right now. Yet when I added 2 +2 they still did not give me the money! :( Now psychical processes, they are rather harder to demonstrate. :)

What definition of 'psychic' are you using? And what exactly did you point out on Bad Psychics? (And what is Bad Psychics?)
 
So, here's the meat of it, as far as I'm concerned:

(quoting Robert McLuhan): It's difficult to reconcile your apparent openness in this posting with the aggressive polemic for which you are better known.

There's yer cognitive dissonance right there... maybe Randi is not the two-dimensional strawperson required by psi advocates to fuel their belief that skepticism is closed-mindedness? How do we manage this? Reject the stereotype, or reject the evidence provided within Randi's statements?




My understanding is that your fame and influence rests on your skill in persuading people not to take psi claims seriously, which is hardly compatible with encouraging a genuine demonstration. The idea that the million-dollar challenge is a meaningful test is surely an illusion. Even if, by some fluke, someone actually did win the prize, what then? Would your followers believe it, or would they just say, poor chap, it got him in the end?

Problem solved: reject the evidence. Stereotype works better. Whew! Close one.
 
Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
'Plumjam' means and is effectively saying that in the context of putative psychic realities 'pseudo-skeptics of psychic realities' lack the qualifications and experience to determine their existence or evaluate them when such determination and evaluation must necessarily be by a 'genuine skeptic of psychic realities' and peer or higher level based.
It has yet to be shown that there are any such 'psychic realities'.

It has yet to be shown that there are not any such 'psychic realities'.
 

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