Quebec Separation

[drkitten]

It's like when a couple decide they can't live together anymore. Maybe the woman needs some space and wants to move in a new appartment. She doesn't have any issue with the man per see, it's just that she needs some space. These things happen. But then the man gets all grumpy and say "Well, ok, but then you'll have to make your own kids - you can't have shared custody of those we currently have. And you'll buy your own set of clothes, you can't bring yours home. If you want to quit me you must quit me at 100%, no exception! And the house? Find your own house!" Except that the man doesn't really want to have sole custody of his kids - it benefits him for his ex to have them every other weekends. And he doesn't really want to keep his ex clothes either - he has no use for them. Why not negociate with his ex for her to buy them back (assuming the men bought them first)? And he can't pay the house by himself anyway, so why not again make a deal with her? Brakeup don't HAVE to be messy.

I've always been suspicious of political argument by domestic analogy. This post is a good illustration of why.

Basically, because the analogy fails. But even within the analogy, the real problem that "she" will need to face is being glossed over. Who pays for the apartment? (which has one p in English, btw) Apartments aren't free, and "the couple" are already on a fairly tight budget.

It gets worse when you factor in the way that the analogy fails. Because in weltpolitik, there's no such thing as an apartment that you rent. It's all homeownership, and the houses are all not only rather expensive, but also badly in need of maintenance. So for her to get a place of her own and some space of her own, she's going to have to invest in some long-term financial committments, and develop quite a bit of skill at home repair that her husband has been doing for her in the house that they share. Quebec has never had to run her own currency, organize her own military, conduct her own diplomacy, and so forth; Ottawa has always done it for her.

Similarly, Quebec has never managed to bring in enough money to cover "her share" of the household expenses, which is why Ottawa has provided a relatively generous allowance of Federal money. (That's part of what I mean by "apartments aren't free.") An "independent" Quebec will either need to live within her own personal income (which is substantially less than what she's been getting in an allowance from Ottawa), or else find a new source of personal income outside of the relationship. Maybe moving into the new house will open up new business opportunities for her (she's closer to her clients?), but that's certainly not a given.

The other problem is that international law simply doesn't allow for "shared" assets or joint custody or whatever. Most countries, states, and provinces recognize "marital property" which is shared by two people; I own my house and my car jointly with my sweetie, and we share our mortgage debt equally. But countries can't do that. It's not "the man" that's telling her that they can't share custody of the kids; it's international law, which in turn fairly closely reflects reality. (Part of the reason is that in "shared custody" we can at least both appeal to a neutral court as an adjudicator if we disagree about the kids. But there's no international court to whom countries can appeal; they have to work it out between themselves by treaty).

Your analogy really does make Quebec independence sound like a bad deal. Either Quebec becomes a sovereign country in the traditional sense of the word, in which case she's assuming a load of responsibility for which she's woefully underprepared, or she is asking for a whole bunch of expensive freedoms that she wants the rest of Canada to pay for without recompense. "I want my own house, but I want you to fix the roof when it leaks and mow the lawn." "I want my own clothes, but I need to be able to come over and use your washer for free." "I want to see the kids on weekends, but I need you to drive them over and pick them up afterwards."

 

[drkitten]

Oh, and I don't really think the majority of the ROC prefers to have an 'all English Canada'. There may be some resentment at French being 'forced' on people in areas of the country where they make up a very small minority of the population, but that doesn't mean we want to force any french from the country.

Which, as far as I can see, is quite reasonable. In Vancouver, as far as I can tell, you can do your business in Chinese only and no one will stop you. You can do your business in Salish only and the only thing that will stop you is the relative paucity of Salish speakers.

About the only language you can't do your business exclusively in, in fact, seems to be English. Because some busybody insists you use French as well.....

 

[Darth Rotor]

For example, why oh why would Quebec creates and manages its own currency? That's the worst case scenario. In practice, it doesn't benefit anyone. Quebec could continue using the Canadian dollar. Or switch to the US dollar.

Thanks for the laugh. That was funny. Federal Reserve Note doesn't get printed in French on the banknotes, ya see ... Maybe Viva la Reveucion will, in a few years. Would that that please the Latinate linguiphiles of Quebec, or is Spanish the wrong corruption of Latin for those folk?

This is so rich with potential humor I cannot use it all. Thanks for the set up.

As to European banana republics, there was a time that I thought of the Euro as creating a series of dependencies* upon the Bundesbank, given how many national currencies before the Euro were already indexed to the Deutschmark.

* = banana republics of a curious variety, blue skinned or something?

I admit I have not paid enough attention to the internal details of the eurozone to assess if it has played out as such.

DR

 

[D'rok]

The issue of Federal transfer payments is often overstated. All of the tax revenue currently flowing from Quebec to the Federal government would flow to the Quebec government post-independence. That may be less than Quebec receives currently in transfer payments, but the Quebec government would be free to set whatever taxation levels it wanted to.

 

[drkitten]

The issue of Federal transfer payments is often overstated. All of the tax revenue currently flowing from Quebec to the Federal government would flow to the Quebec government post-independence. That may be less than Quebec receives currently in transfer payments, but the Quebec government would be free to set whatever taxation levels it wanted to.

Which, in turn, means that either the Quebecois will be forced to accept substantially lower levels of government services, or to raise taxes substantially (which will make Quebec even less competitive, economically, with the ROC).

Made more so by the almost certain increase in the costs of government services, simply because Quebec will have to do so many new things for herself (and on a smaller scale).

Regardless of how you phrase it, it's very hard to wean oneself off the habit of spending other people's money, which is what Quebec has been doing for years.

 

[D'rok]

I think the most pressing question about currency is...

...will Quebec adopt the Amero?

 

[Madalch]

In the typical nationalist perspective, the ROC don't really appreciate us very much anyway. They would prefer to have an all-english country.

That's completely untrue.

I have no problems with French, apart from my inability to speak it. It doesn't hurt me to see half the cereal box written in French, although I have been somewhat annoyed at times when the only good show on TV was on the French channel. My children are all in French immersion school (as are many kids in this town, despite the fact that we're a long, long way from any areas that were settled by francophones).

If Quebec were to separate, I wouldn't pull my kids out of French immersion- I sincerely want them to be multilingual, and French is one of the founding languages of Canada, even if part of it leaves.

Now, if Quebec leaves and decides it wants to continue using the Canadian dollar, I can see us changing to English-only banknotes simply out of spite....

 

[lomiller]

How I see the issue here, is that you've made your mind about the causes of Quebec separatism (an opinion certainly fuelled by the ROC media) and you've decide it's a black and white issue with no shades of grey. But now are completely confused when we tell you we wouldn't act like you expect us to, or that Quebec objectives aren't actually the objectives you believed we had.

You seem confused about where the expectations are coming from. In most cases there is zero interest in the rest of Canada to have these relations in place with an independent Quebec unless there happens to be some direct personal benefit. Given Quebec’s status as the largest beneficiary province it’s not likely there will be many cases where the relationships will have any benefit to the rest of Canada.

 

[D'rok]

Which, in turn, means that either the Quebecois will be forced to accept substantially lower levels of government services, or to raise taxes substantially (which will make Quebec even less competitive, economically, with the ROC).

Made more so by the almost certain increase in the costs of government services, simply because Quebec will have to do so many new things for herself (and on a smaller scale).

Regardless of how you phrase it, it's very hard to wean oneself off the habit of spending other people's money, which is what Quebec has been doing for years.

Personally, I don't think any of the problems Quebec might face after separation are deal-breakers. In fact, most, if not all of the provinces could conceivably become reasonably successful nation-states. The only really dependent parts of the country are the northern territories (although PEI would likely need to join up with some other province(s)).

The real question is why? Pardalis says "why not?", but that's not really a good enough reason to break up one of the most successful and prosperous countries in the world. Canada is a hell of nice place to live. There's a pithy phrase about Canada - it's a country that works in practice but not in principle. It's not like we're Belgium or something.

We're the most de-centralized federation in the world. All of the provinces have a great deal of power to order their own affairs. Obviously, this isn't enough for many Quebeckers....but the provinces have real power.

Quebec city just had its 400th anniversary. It is still French. It will always be French. All of Canada wants it to always be French. Most of us want it to also be Canadian, even if only as a secondary identity.

I want to live in a country where two founding cultures can build something together.

 

[D'rok]

I think a lot of Quebeckers would be surprised to see just how much French really exists outside of Quebec.

Anecdotally: I'm from Edmonton. The U of A has a francophone campus...
http://www.csj.ualberta.ca/Home/tabid/36/language/fr-CA/Default.aspx
...and there are many francophone towns scattered around the Edmonton area and in Northern Alberta. My home town (one of Edmonton's suburbs) is very anglo, but was originally a French settlement and still has ties to those roots - it is possible to go from kindergarten all the way through high school in French immersion. I wish my parents had had the foresight to send me to those schools. It would have made my life in Ottawa about 1000X easier.

 

[drkitten]

Personally, I don't think any of the problems Quebec might face after separation are deal-breakers.

Deal breakers? Probably not. But they're significant enough problems that I think it makes separation a bad decision.

In fact, most, if not all of the provinces could conceivably become reasonably successful nation-states.

The real question is why? Pardalis says "why not?", but that's not really a good enough reason to break up one of the most successful and prosperous countries in the world. Canada is a hell of nice place to live. There's a pithy phrase about Canada - it's a country that works in practice but not in principle. It's not like we're Belgium or something.

I agree. I also think Canada is more than the sum of its parts, and that I think Canada as a whole is more than just the "reasonably successful" that the provinces could aspire to as individuals.

What this really reminds me of, as much as anything, is when the lead guitarist of a really good band has a snit fit and threatens to start a solo career if you don't agree with his "artistic vision." Sure, any and all of the musicians are pretty good by themselves and can support themselves off the residuals and with studio work. But usually the band is better than the members, and usually the soloist isn't as good or as popular as he thought he would be. (Esp. when one of the strengths of the band is a really good manager.)

How often have we seen that situation?

What we have here is the world-famous band Frog and the Maple Moose, and I just don't see it being in Frog's best interest to go it alone.

 

[lomiller]

The ROC does benefit in several ways from the inclusion of Quebec within confederation. For example:
- Any trade between western and an eastern Canada becomes more complex if there were an independent Quebec in the middle, with perhaps its own customs/border control. (and yes, I am assuming that it would be an 'independent Quebec')

Not true. International trade is covered by GATT other trade agreements. Current interprovincial trade barriers are significantly greater then those that exist with Canada’s main international trading partners. If anything, the new requirement to conform to GATT would make trade with Quebec easier, not harder.

- Having a country with more than 30 million provides more weight in global affairs than a country with approximately 25% fewer people

If Quebec separates Canada is no longer a country of 33 million.

 

[D'rok]

What we have here is the world-famous band Frog and the Maple Moose, and I just don't see it being in Frog's best interest to go it alone.

And Maple Moose just isn't the same band without one of its founding members.

 

[drkitten]

Not true. International trade is covered by GATT other trade agreements. Current interprovincial trade barriers are significantly greater then those that exist with Canada’s main international trading partners. If anything, the new requirement to conform to GATT would make trade with Quebec easier, not harder.

I think you misunderstood. Trade between BC and PEI would get harder if if there were a foreign country literally in the way.

 

[Madalch]

My home town (one of Edmonton's suburbs) is very anglo, but was originally a French settlement and still has ties to those roots - it is possible to go from kindergarten all the way through high school in French immersion.

St. Albert?

I'd go on with guesses like Legal, Beaumont, Morinville, etc., but none of those towns could possibly be considered "very anglo". I lived in Legal as a preschooler, and apparently learned a lot of French, but I didn't retain it. Despite my teachers' best efforts, the only French I retained was from Sesame Street.

You want to advance the cause of French outside of Quebec? Pressure the CBC to bring back Sesame Street!

 

[Segnosaur]

- Any trade between western and an eastern Canada becomes more complex if there were an independent Quebec in the middle, with perhaps its own customs/border control. (and yes, I am assuming that it would be an 'independent Quebec')

Not true. International trade is covered by GATT other trade agreements. Current interprovincial trade barriers are significantly greater then those that exist with Canada’s main international trading partners. If anything, the new requirement to conform to GATT would make trade with Quebec easier, not harder.

Actually, that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

I wasn't referring to the trade between Quebec and the rest of Canada, I was referring to the trade of goods from one province that would remain in Canada, and another province that would remain in Canada.

Right now, if someone in Newfoundland wants to send a shipment of canned squid parts (or whatever product they want to sell) to Ontario, its no problem... the trucks can roll right on through. If Quebec were to separate, and like any good country sets up its own border and customs controls, it might cause problems for those trucks carrying those squid parts to their Ontario buyers. Truckers would have to deal with two border crossings (one at the Labrador/Quebec border, one at the Ontario/Quebec border. Not only that, there may also be added documentation requirements (to ensure materials passing through Quebec are not actually sold in Quebec, avoiding any import taxes.)

- Having a country with more than 30 million provides more weight in global affairs than a country with approximately 25% fewer people

If Quebec separates Canada is no longer a country of 33 million.

That was my point.

We don't get many people listening to us now, with a population of only 33 million. If Quebec separates, we'll have an even harder time getting people to listen to us with a population of only 26 million.

 

[D'rok]

St. Albert?

Yup.

I'd go on with guesses like Legal, Beaumont, Morinville, etc., but none of those towns could possibly be considered "very anglo". I lived in Legal as a preschooler, and apparently learned a lot of French, but I didn't retain it. Despite my teachers' best efforts, the only French I retained was from Sesame Street.

Those are a few of the communities that are still very francophone at their core. St. Paul is another obvious one. There's a few up by Peace River too.

 

[lomiller]

I think you misunderstood. Trade between BC and PEI would get harder if if there were a foreign country literally in the way.

I expect the US would have a great deal to say if Quebec tried to shut off Great lakes access to the Atlantic and Canadian trucking companies already have free access to travel through the US should Quebec choose not to participate in NAFTA.

Also, given the near 100% opposition First Nations have to being a part an independent Quebec I find it very unlikely Quebec an independent Quebec would actually cut off land access to the Maritimes.

 

[geni]

Quebec city just had its 400th anniversary. It is still French. It will always be French. All of Canada wants it to always be French. Most of us want it to also be Canadian, even if only as a secondary identity.

How many scientific papers were published in french last year? What percentage of major computer programs have their sourcecode anotated in french?

English is the language of science and technology and over time the cost of translation will become less acceptable.

 

[Almo]

A lot of talented anglophones I know will leave Québec if it seperates. I'd certainly consider leaving.