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How 9/11 was done

OK, you made it clear that you do not like Richard Gage, and I can very well understand why. :D

The video lasts 2 hours. I reduced its message to one photo.

You are ignoring its content which is devastating for your case.

Comments please.

No I don't like Richard Gage. He is a fraud who is profiteering off the deaths of 3,000 people. A stupid fraud too.

You didn't answer my question. I'll repeat it. Do competent architects go around dropping cardboard boxes to prove the towers came down in a controlled demolition? Yes or no.

And no, I do not ignore the content of his stupid video. In fact, I took the time to destroy the points that you found important earlier in this thread. Are you pretending that I didn't make that post?

If explosives did blow up the building, there would have been extremely loud bangs recorded by every single video camera and heard by every single person within miles of the site. This did not happen. Please explain. Were there magic, silent explosives? This huge problem is why some morons think it was thermite that brought down the towers. But of course, thermite would not send all that stuff flying as it is an incendiary not an explosive. There also happens to be exactly the same amount of evidence for thermite as explosives: zero.
 
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The video lasts 2 hours. I reduced its message to one photo.

You are ignoring its content which is devastating for your case.

Comments please.

As the roof of the tower descends, air inside the tower is forced to occupy a smaller area, increasing its pressure. This increased pressure causes the air to be expelled from any opening around the edges of the tower. The moving air is mixed with dust from the large quantities of wallboard forming internal, non-structural (and hence easily crushed) partition walls inside the towers. Therefore dust is expelled sideways in very large amounts as the towers fall. This can easily be distinguished from the results of explosives when seen in a video because it takes place at a relatively steady rate rather than for short periods at intervals. However, in a carefully chosen still photo it may be claimed, by someone sufficiently dishonest, to resemble the effects of explosives.

Dave
 
The air inside the building's gotta go somewhere. Given that down was not an option being that it was a rapidly compressing mass of building materials, it followed the least resistance - up and out.

I see. All this concrete is blown away from the building because the air (density air couple of thousands lower than concrete) cannot find its way out. Would you not agree that a few breaking windows would be enough for the air to 'escape' unhindered and that therefore air cannot be an explanation for this spraying around of pulverized concrete.

Congratulations. You once again appear to be arranging the facts to suit your theory.

Validate is the word. Facts validating the theory.
Nothing wrong with that.
 
OK, you made it clear that you do not like Richard Gage, and I can very well understand why. :D

The video lasts 2 hours. I reduced its message to one photo.

You are ignoring its content which is devastating for your case.

Comments please.
Do you want to explain how all that debris got dozens of floors ahead of the "free-fall-speedtm" collapse?
 
The moving air is mixed with dust from the large quantities of wallboard forming internal, non-structural (and hence easily crushed) partition walls inside the towers.
Anyone who has spent even just a few minutes of time handling and cutting drywall can verify just how much dust that stuff can produce under normal conditions, let alone when crushed in a collapsing building.
 
Your answer sounds as meek as your non-reply to the issue of the dancing Israelis... of course is not every video posted on the internet 'entirely accurate'. But this particular video is.
No it isn't. Hence the large amount of dumb it contains.

Remember this is a club of highly competent architects and engineers who have nothing to gain from their anti-government stance. Well, not in the short run that is.
It can be a joint production by Stephen Hawking and the Pope for all I care --- if the claims are false or unproven they have no merit.

"Highly competent"? How did you establish that? Are you in any position to judge?

Alright, I make it very easy for you... look at this picture:

Now, what do you see? Pancaking? You're kidding right?

What millions of thoughtful normal mortals see is that concrete is sprayed far away from the building. And that my friend is impossible with mere gravitational implosion of the building.
Ah, some physics you made up. Did you validate it by experimenting with cardboard boxes?

In real life, it is quite hard to see how a structure can collapse without some of its components experiencing a lateral force, because if all the force vectors were down ... you see the problem?

In controlled demolitions, of course, buildings are imploded so that the lateral force goes towards the center of the building.

The spraying of concrete is caused by huge explosions.
But it seems like they weren't huge and explodey enough to go "BANG".

And with the recognition of these explosions ...
Actually, I'm not sure you would recognize an explosion, that may be part of the problem.

Let me help you out here. Here are the two largest buildings ever destroyed by controlled demolition: the Hudson's Department Store (33 stories and 134 meters at its highest point) and the Landmark Tower, Fort Worth (30 stories and 116 meters).





Do you think you'd recognize something like that if you saw it again?

... the lame government story of Arabs causing the destruction of the Twin Towers can go where it belongs: in the dustbin.

And with it goes the case for the debunkers: pancaked into oblivion.
I think you should achieve victory before declaring it, call me old-fashioned if you will.

P.S. Dr. Adequate, if you want to receive mail you need to clean out your mailbox; it is full.
Thank you.
 
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I see. All this concrete is blown away from the building because the air (density air couple of thousands lower than concrete) cannot find its way out. Would you not agree that a few breaking windows would be enough for the air to 'escape' unhindered and that therefore air cannot be an explanation for this spraying around of pulverized concrete.

Where in that picture do you see "pulverized concrete" as apposed to say drywall and other dust?

Also how many (thousand) cubic feet of air was in each floor of the towers? I know do you? (hint: it won't fit out a few windows very quickly)
 
You are ignoring its content which is devastating for your case.

Which is an interesting comment coming from someone who has basically rebutted any and all criticism of his "theory" by saying "It's just a theory, I haven't amassed any evidence to support it yet," thereby effectively immunizing himself from having to actually make a case.

And in reference to the photo you linked showing the tower collapsing, yes.... I can see how, to a biased mind hell-bent on implicating Teh Danzing Jooos, that still-frame shot could appear to show the tower exploding. However, actually watch the video (of which there are tons) of that event, and you will see in real time the tower peeling away from itself.
 
Would you not agree that a few breaking windows would be enough for the air to 'escape' unhindered and that therefore air cannot be an explanation for this spraying around of pulverized concrete.

I'm going to focus on this sentence because it exemplifies every drawback to your approach to investigation.

First of all, it highlights your laziness. You haven't made any attempt to work out how much air is required to escape from the building, or how much area was available for it to escape through. It's not even a particularly difficult calculation to do. Both towers were 208 feet square, and WTC1 was 1,368 feet high; this is easy to find on Wikipedia. Average storey height was therefore just over 12 feet; let's call it 12 exactly to allow for the solid parts of the structure. That means that every storey contained half a million cubic feet of air, all of which had to escape as that storey was crushed. If we assume that every window on the floor, and every perimeter column, was removed, then the area available for the air to move through was 2500 square feet. By the time the collapse had got going, each floor was collapsing in about a tenth of a second. For half a million cubic feet of air to pass through an area of 2500 square feet in a tenth of a second, it must be moving at 2000 feet per second, or about 1360 miles per hour. What this tells us is that much more area than this must have been required for the air to escape, because this speed of ejection would cause widespread destruction of the walls and windows on its own. "A few breaking windows" won't do; if every window on an entire level was broken, then the air would still be forced out at the sort of speed that gas expands in an explosion. It's a simple calculation, but you just couldn't be bothered to do it. Why not?

This brings us on to your second failing: selection bias. Like any other conspiracy theorist, you're determined to apply an insanely high burden of proof to anything that supports what you like to think of as "the official story", which is actually the real events that happened; if any small aspect of the sequence of events can be misinterpreted in a way that makes it appear that there is some trifling inconsistency, then you claim that the entire series of events must be rejected. And yet, when it comes to the supposed evidence that supports your conspiracy theory, you're happy to make extraordinary leaps of faith, in which you assume that the results of the most simplistic and superficial analysis are rigorous and unarguable, and where you place greater faith in your own uninformed and unthinking guesses than in detailed analysis. Here's a case in point: you want the escape of air to be insignificant, so instead of working out whether it's significant, you start from the assumption that it must be insignificant. Typical conspiracy theorist circular reasoning.

And the beginning of the sentence, "Would you not agree that...", highlights the third drawback to your approach: arrogance. You've come into this forum, it seems, with the belief that the regulars here have never questioned a word of the story fed to them by the government, simply ridiculing anyone who shows dissent, and the expectation that once you show us all the things we've always chosen never to see then we will all drop down on our knees and acknowledge your superior judgement and intelligence. What you fail to understand is that the regulars here have in fact studied both sides of the debate (in so far as there is a coherent conspiracist side to it) with the same level of skepticism, and determined that, although some aspects of the US Government's statements or of official bodies' analysis may fall short of perfection, overall the case for 9/11 having been an al-Qaeda attack is proven far beyond a reasonable burden of proof, that the claims of the conspiracists are self-contradictory and usually rooted in deliberate dishonesty, and that the specific claims you are making - because we have, of course, seen everything you claim many times before - are utterly without merit or foundation. And yet, you seem to think that you can make a wild guess about a critical point of evidence, and that everybody will agree with you. Not here. You're not only wrong, but spectacularly wrong, with your estimate that "a few breaking windows" would easily allow all the air to escape, and round here you will be called out on your spectacularly inaccurate guesswork.

You've claimed that you're limited in your investigations because all you have is a computer with an Internet connection. That's not your hindrance; everything you've claimed can be trivially refuted with no more than that, plus the ability to think logically and to re-examine your own conclusions self-critically. Those last two areas are where your problem lies.

Dave
 
Still struggling for a breakthrough regarding the remote control issue...

Here is an interesting thread from the pilotsfor911truth forum, post #11:


Go to ATA chapter 23 and review B757/B767 SATOM interfaces with the other B757/B767 systems such as Flight Management Computers (FMCs).

Satellite data link to any/all SATCOM equipped B-types is established via the B-type SATCOM antenna mounted on the top of the fuselage near/around the station corresponding with the wing's trailing edge.

Satellite data/commands are received by the Satellite Data Unit (SDU) located within the aft cargo compartment behind panel rendering it safe/secure from any human/pax/hijacker access.

SDU transmits data/commands via a "back door" connection to the flight deck's/cockpits CDU. The pilot/co-pilot inputs commands/flight plans for their B-type into the CDU.

Pilots/co-pilots can (and do) manually/physically input flight plan commands to/for their B-type via the flight deck/cockpit's CDU.

"Unknown" ground controllers who have access to/knowledge of that particular B-type's assigned/programmed I.D. number can likewise electronically input flight plan commands to/for their "Arab Terrorist Hijacked" B757 or B767.

Who has the the B757 and B767 SATCOM Indentifier Codes for each and every last Boeing production 757 & 767 so as to gain electromic/satellite access to the on-board CDU so as to fly any/all B757s & B767s by remote control from any console linked to SATCOM?

Meet your REAL 'Arab Terrorist Hijackers'....Boeing, FAA, DOD, United Airlines, American Airlines.
 
Still struggling for a breakthrough regarding the remote control issue...

Here is an interesting thread from the pilotsfor911truth forum, post #11:


Go to ATA chapter 23 and review B757/B767 SATOM interfaces with the other B757/B767 systems such as Flight Management Computers (FMCs).

Satellite data link to any/all SATCOM equipped B-types is established via the B-type SATCOM antenna mounted on the top of the fuselage near/around the station corresponding with the wing's trailing edge.

Satellite data/commands are received by the Satellite Data Unit (SDU) located within the aft cargo compartment behind panel rendering it safe/secure from any human/pax/hijacker access.

SDU transmits data/commands via a "back door" connection to the flight deck's/cockpits CDU. The pilot/co-pilot inputs commands/flight plans for their B-type into the CDU.

Pilots/co-pilots can (and do) manually/physically input flight plan commands to/for their B-type via the flight deck/cockpit's CDU.

"Unknown" ground controllers who have access to/knowledge of that particular B-type's assigned/programmed I.D. number can likewise electronically input flight plan commands to/for their "Arab Terrorist Hijacked" B757 or B767.

Who has the the B757 and B767 SATCOM Indentifier Codes for each and every last Boeing production 757 & 767 so as to gain electromic/satellite access to the on-board CDU so as to fly any/all B757s & B767s by remote control from any console linked to SATCOM?

Meet your REAL 'Arab Terrorist Hijackers'....Boeing, FAA, DOD, United Airlines, American Airlines.


Look, I don't know what else to say. This has all been explained already.. The idea that way point data can be inputted in the cockpit, OR from the ground through the "back door" { Whaa?} doesn't mean anything..


The truth absolutely, is that a 767 or 757 would have to be very heavily modified in order to prevent pilots from having total control of the aircraft at their will.. This is like the moon arriving in the sky every night. There is nothing that can be done about this truth. It just is. It would take many many hours, and even then, It's not at ALL clear that they could lock OUT inputs. They certainly would HAVE TO used a huge power system that is not already on board.. The pilots can, if they have to, pull all computer power and still fly air speed and altitude with a back up horizon. {I think, maybe not the Art. Horizon?}. This includes power for FMC, all crew alerting and every other nav. and/or "smart" system on board the plane. A redesign of the aircraft would be in order. And then, HOW would ground crews and Pilots not know?

My Brain hurts. AGAIN!!

Oh, and I want to talk to the idiot who wrote what you quoted here to.

Read some stuff, then get back with us on your "break through."

Ivan......................
 
Is there anybody who ISN'T in on it 9/11 investigator?

I would bet alot of money that NEI's favorite movie scene of all time comes from JFK:

Jim Garrison: Who killed the President?
David Ferrie: Why don't you ******* stop it? S***! This is too big for you, you know that? Who did the President? ***! It's a mystery. It's a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma! The shooters don't even know! Don't you get it?



NEI, how is it that your hypothesised small Mossad conspiracy, (I think you mentioned 10 or 20 high level agents and 20 to 40 foot soldiers), managed to control the FAA, Boeing, DoD, UA and AA?
 
My Brain hurts. AGAIN!!

Nobody is asking you to respond. Take a break if you cannot take it anymore.

Read some stuff, then get back with us on your "break through."

I did not say I had a breakthrough, those are your words. And I am reading all the time.

Oh, and I want to talk to the idiot who wrote what you quoted here to.

Go ahead, post #45: http://letsrollforums.com/new-757-767-photo-t9587p5.html

He contradicts what several of my opponents here alleged:

And as with cruise missiles with a satellite link, current contemporary commerical airliners's aircraft are 'in contact with' ground stations contecting them back to their airliner's "home base" or "headquarters".

The folks back at their 'headquarters' have the ability to communicate with the flight crew through what is called the ACARS system. The folks back at 'headquarters' can monitor/down load all sorts of flight data. And if the 'ground controllers' with a 'satellite link' to the aircraft via Satcom have that aircraft's individual identifier code ALONG WITH its particularly assigned computer 'Password', the ground controllers can CHANGE the aircraft's flight plan IN MID-AIR! And with this capability comes the ability to LOCK OUT the flight crew from disengaging the AUTOPILOT by altering the 'logic gates' within those on-board computers.

No human pilot or co-pilot ALIVE can exert the required pressure to OVERCOME the thousands of psi hydraulic pressure being exerted against any and all of the aircraft's flight control servos and actuators!


Can somebody here provide evidence (Boeing manuals) that under all circumstances the pilots are stronger than the servos? I do believe that under normal operating conditions the pilot just have to touch the yoke to overrule the autopilot; but I do not believe that the max. power of the servo's is less than that of the pilot, just because you say so.
 
Still struggling for a breakthrough regarding the remote control issue...

No, you're still struggling to find something to help you rationalize your preconceptions. You're not "investigating", you're trying to convince yourself that your hypothesis is plausible even if it won't convince anyone else here.
 
Nobody is asking you to respond. Take a break if you cannot take it anymore.



I did not say I had a breakthrough, those are your words. And I am reading all the time.



Go ahead, post #45: http://letsrollforums.com/new-757-767-photo-t9587p5.html

He contradicts what several of my opponents here alleged:

And as with cruise missiles with a satellite link, current contemporary commerical airliners's aircraft are 'in contact with' ground stations contecting them back to their airliner's "home base" or "headquarters".

The folks back at their 'headquarters' have the ability to communicate with the flight crew through what is called the ACARS system. The folks back at 'headquarters' can monitor/down load all sorts of flight data. And if the 'ground controllers' with a 'satellite link' to the aircraft via Satcom have that aircraft's individual identifier code ALONG WITH its particularly assigned computer 'Password', the ground controllers can CHANGE the aircraft's flight plan IN MID-AIR! And with this capability comes the ability to LOCK OUT the flight crew from disengaging the AUTOPILOT by altering the 'logic gates' within those on-board computers.

No human pilot or co-pilot ALIVE can exert the required pressure to OVERCOME the thousands of psi hydraulic pressure being exerted against any and all of the aircraft's flight control servos and actuators!


Can somebody here provide evidence (Boeing manuals) that under all circumstances the pilots are stronger than the servos? I do believe that under normal operating conditions the pilot just have to touch the yoke to overrule the autopilot; but I do not believe that the max. power of the servo's is less than that of the pilot, just because you say so.

All you've shown is that there is at least one anonymous contributor on the LetsRoll forums with a misinterpretation of what the remote ground control can accomplish that is equal to your misinterpretation.

No one is disputing that its theoretically possible to give commands to the autopilot via remote access, however, it has been repeatedly explained to you in this thread that the pilot controls are mechanical, not electrical, and that their manual input in the cockpit to these mechanical controls are far stronger than what the computer may be telling these controls to do against the pilots will. Further, any modifications substantial enough to do what you and this ***** at letsroll are claiming, COULD NOT POSSIBLY ESCAPE THE ATTENTION OF THE GROUND CREW AND THE PILOTS.
 
No human pilot or co-pilot ALIVE can exert the required pressure to OVERCOME the thousands of psi hydraulic pressure being exerted against any and all of the aircraft's flight control servos and actuators!


Can somebody here provide evidence (Boeing manuals) that under all circumstances the pilots are stronger than the servos? I do believe that under normal operating conditions the pilot just have to touch the yoke to overrule the autopilot; but I do not believe that the max. power of the servo's is less than that of the pilot, just because you say so.


Before I even try to find manuals and system specs, I want to be sure you are aware of certain points.

1) The pressure in the lines does not mean there is a big force put out. you have to take into account the diameter of the piston in the linear actuator. If the piston is, say, only 0.5 inches in diameter, then 1,000 psi of pressure will only get you about 196 pounds of force.

2) The control yoke acts as a lever. If the actuator from the remote controls acts at the bottom (near the pivot, or fulcrum), the force it exerts will diminish with distance from the fulcrum. The pilot's hands, on the yoke, will have to exert substantially less force than the actuators to overpower them.

3) There is till nothing stopping the pilots from disengaging or manually disconnecting the control system. If nothing else, they could disconnect it's power supply.

4) If there is a major difference (besides the amount of composite materials used) between Boeing and Airbus, it is this: In a Boeing, the aircraft does what the pilot wants. PERIOD. In an Airbus (which, to my knowledge, are all fly-by-wire), the computers have the final say. The pilots "suggestions" are filtered by computer before being implemented. There are pros and cons to each approach. But the important thing to note is that, by design, the individuals piloting an Boeing aircraft have complete authority over what the aircraft does.


As you can see from the points I've laid out above, the "remote control" hypothesis has serious weaknesses. Arbitrarily claiming (without any supporting evidence) that the autopilot can completely take over the aircraft is unfounded speculation. As such, you really shouldn't even waste time contemplating it.

I just want to make sure you are aware of that.



Aside:
I suggest you read a document entitled :Remote Takeover on 9/11: A Critical Analysis, written by Apathoid (whom I believe is a member of this forum). Page 11 is there the discussion of the autopilot and control system begins.​
 
No one is disputing that its theoretically possible to give commands to the autopilot via remote access, however, it has been repeatedly explained to you in this thread that the pilot controls are mechanical, not electrical, and that their manual input in the cockpit to these mechanical controls are far stronger than what the computer may be telling these controls to do against the pilots will. Further, any modifications substantial enough to do what you and this ***** at letsroll are claiming, COULD NOT POSSIBLY ESCAPE THE ATTENTION OF THE GROUND CREW AND THE PILOTS.

It has not been explained, it merely has been asserted. I am waiting for you to give me proof from credible documentation.

In the meantime I now have a breakthrough: these forum posts led me to the concept of ACARS:

During the late 1980s and early 1990s, a datalink interface between the ACARS MUs and Flight management systems (FMS) was introduced. This interface enabled flight plans and weather information to be sent from the ground to the ACARS MU, which would then be forwarded to the FMS. This feature gave the airline the capability to update FMSs while in flight, and allowed the flight crew to evaluate new weather conditions, or alternate flight plans.

Here I found a arbitrary link from a Baltic airline that operates 2 B757 with ACARS enabled.

So it is now almost certain that remote control is possible for a B757. The only thing that needs yet to be demonstrated is that it is possible to disable the controls. In the meantime you guys can make yourselves useful by trying to prove (not just assert) that a pilot is always stronger than the control servos. I don't believe a word of it.

I think it is time to open another bottle of fine Rioja, even though it is only Monday.

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Edited for topic
 
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