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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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I have no problem believing:
1.) Jesus was real.
2.) He had some pretty good ideas regarding how we should live.
3.) That he had a demonstrable and major impact on our world/civilization.

What I have a hard time believing is that he "rose from the dead."

What I know from science and medicine is that to be fully dead for 3 days (e.g., no brain activity, a stopped heart, necrotic tissue...) does not come back to life.

I do know of circumstances where a slowed heart rate, undetectablly slow breathing, comatose patient can appear to be dead. And I also know that people in this state may actually regain consciousness.


What I do not know is what evidence would exist that would suggest Jesus was in the "true dead" category vs. the "comatose" version. It is unlikely that such evidence could exist. Even if you had accounts of this comeback, I could not trust thier veracity. It is an extrodinary claim, and one that would require more concrete evidence. Written testimony wouldn't cut it. Would you trust a group of people who said elvis is still alive because they saw him?

So, evidence that would support the resurrection for me would be as follows:

1.) Jesus returning saying that it happened.
2.) A body of Jesus that is 2000 years old and still in viable tact. (Although this would contradict the corporeal assention of Jesus into heaven, it would at least support the unusual circumstances of a resurrection. E.g., it would prove that his body was immune to decay as a result of death)
3.) A demonstration of modern human being dead for three days (in the "dead/dead" way) and returning to life. It would help to also document that this person could ascend corporeally into heaven. Also explain where/what heaven is. It doesn't prove that Jesus resurrected, but it at least proves that it is possible and I would no longer deny it as a possibility.
4.)Or to tackle the problem in another way: Demonstrate that it is impossible for the stone blocking the tomb to have been moved by people other than Jesus.
5.) Or demonstrate that it is impossible for a tomb to be empty for any other reason than a ressurection. (E.g., demosntrate that body thefts/grave robbing never happen)


These are merely examples. But I think that they reflect the kind of evidence that is warrented to support the ressurection story.
 
DOC said:
I haven't read it. All I know is that there is a belief in parts of India that Thomas aka Doubting Thomas was a missionary there and founded a church there.
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So, hearsay evidence/fable/and/or what you've read on the internet are sufficient evidence for you to make a statement that Thomas was a missionary and not that there are legends that such was the case?

Yes, there are legends that Thomas went to India. There is a text full of stories with him in India, unwillingly I might add.

Legends, hearsay, and stories do not provide worthwhile evidence. Do you have any convincing evidence of Thomas' journey if you do not want to endorse The Acts of Thomas?
 
I guess my question was deemed unworthy by DOC to answer. So I'll repeat it.

DOC, do you accept or reject the account from the Gospel of Nicodemus (a Jewish Sanhedrin member) of the empty jail cell of Joseph of Arimethea? If you reject it, please provide your reasons for doing so.
 
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DOC said:
So in order for us to truly understand your answer you would have to give

1) the "number" of independent contemporary non-biblical writings that would be sufficient.

2)what "specific" other sources and how many of those other sources.
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I answered your question, DOC. I thought I was extremely clear. I can only interpret your further equivocation as an admission that you don't have even one non-biblical source for the resurrection.

In other words, stop beating around the bush. Show us the evidence.
 
Sefarst said:
So Thomas had a cold mechanical love for Christ? Why did they let him remain a disciple and go on to found that church in India?
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Thomas was an apostle who supposedly lived with Christ for 3 years like the other apostles. He knew Christ intimately. There is a difference between a having a deep 3 year personal relationship and a one time appearance by Christ to a person for the express purpose of giving that person evidence.
 
DOC said:
Thomas was an apostle who supposedly lived with Christ for 3 years like the other apostles. He knew Christ intimately. There is a difference between a having a deep 3 year personal relationship and a one time appearance by Christ to a person for the express purpose of giving that person evidence.
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Paul of Tarsus, anyone?
 
joobz said:
What I do not know is what evidence would exist that would suggest Jesus was in the "true dead" category vs. the "comatose" version. It is unlikely that such evidence could exist.
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This site does a pretty good job arguing Jesus was really dead. Here is an excerpt but it has much more following this.

"After the verdict of crucifixion had been pronounced by the court, Jesus was severely whipped (or scourged), as was the custom. The whip, known as a flugrum, had a sturdy handle to which was attached long leather thongs of varying lengths into which sharp jagged pieces of bone and lead were woven. When it was determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner was near death, the beating was finally stopped. The man condemned to be crucified had to carry his own cross-bar (or patibulam, weighing about 110 pounds) strapped to his shoulders from the prison to the place of execution. In Jesus' case, someone was made to carry the cross for Him as He had been scourged so severely.

Upon reaching the execution site, heavy wrought iron spikes were driven through the depressions at the front of each wrist and through both heels, which were transfixed by the same nail. Crucifixion was so gruesome and degrading that the Romans usually excluded Roman citizens and reserved it for slaves to discourage uprisings, or for those rebelling against the Roman government." (much more in article)

Historical Evidence for the Accuracy of the Bible
By Dennis Crawford

http://www.newtestamentchurch.org/html/Christian_Evidence/Historical_Evidence.htm

And even on the very slim chance he wasn't dead how is he going to get out of his heavy cloth wrappings , move the heavy boulder in his near death state, and then get past the Roman guards. Then what is he going to do, crawl in his bloodied state with wounds to his wrists feet. and also body from the severe whipping. Not to mention the spear to the side in which blood and water flowed out -- a sign of death. Is he then going to crawl to the apostles and say "I told you I'd return after 3 days". And then what happens next, he is still going to die someday and there will be a body then. And would the apostles be so enthusiastic about a bloodied half dead messiah who is going to die and be buried someday. The swoon theory just doesn't add up.
 
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DOC said:
Thomas was an apostle who supposedly lived with Christ for 3 years like the other apostles. He knew Christ intimately. There is a difference between a having a deep 3 year personal relationship and a one time appearance by Christ to a person for the express purpose of giving that person evidence.
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So if Jesus came back for a day and revealed himself, I would only be able to have a "Cold mechanical love" for him.
But if he came back for 3 years and hung out with me, I could have a real love with him?

Ok. Why doesn't Jesus come back and hang out with everyone for three years?
 
DOC said:
This site does a pretty good job arguing Jesus was really dead. Here is an excerpt but it has much more following this.

"After the verdict of crucifixion had been pronounced by the court, Jesus was severely whipped (or scourged), as was the custom. The whip, known as a flugrum, had a sturdy handle to which was attached long leather thongs of varying lengths into which sharp jagged pieces of bone and lead were woven. When it was determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner was near death, the beating was finally stopped. The man condemned to be crucified had to carry his own cross-bar (or patibulam, weighing about 110 pounds) strapped to his shoulders from the prison to the place of execution. In Jesus' case, someone was made to carry the cross for Him as He had been scourged so severely.

Upon reaching the execution site, heavy wrought iron spikes were driven through the depressions at the front of each wrist and through both heels, which were transfixed by the same nail. Crucifixion was so gruesome and degrading that the Romans usually excluded Roman citizens and reserved it for slaves to discourage uprisings, or for those rebelling against the Roman government."

Historical Evidence for the Accuracy of the Bible
By Dennis Crawford

http://www.newtestamentchurch.org/html/Christian_Evidence/Historical_Evidence.htm
Click to expand...
Assuming the account is true, I didn't read anything that would prove he was dead. People can survive amazing ordeals.


DOC said:
And even on the very slim chance he wasn't dead how is he going to get out of his heavy cloth wrappings , move the heavy boulder in his near death state, and then get past the Roman guards. Then what is he going to do, crawl in his bloodied state with wounds to his wrists feet. and also body from the severe whipping. Not to mention the spear to the side in which blood and water flowed out -- a sign of death. Is he then going to crawl to the apostles and say "I told you I'd return after 3 days". And then what happens next, he is still going to die someday and there will be a body then. And would the apostles be so enthusiastic about a bloodied half dead messiah who is going to die and be buried someday. The swoon theory just doesn't add up.
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Who says he did it alone? Your assumption is simply false.


BEsides, you asked for what kind of evidence I would need to believe in a resurrection. I provided the kind of evidence needed.
 
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joobz said:
Assuming the account is true, I didn't read anything that would prove he was dead. People can survive amazing ordeals.



Who says he did it alone?
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And if he never died there would be the problem of Christ appearing suddenly in the locked room implying He went right through the walls, and also his bodily ascension into heaven.
 
DOC said:
And if he never died there would be the problem of Christ appearing suddenly in the locked room implying He went right through the walls, and also his bodily ascension into heaven.
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Yes indeed. What is more likely, some undead being that walks though walls or a hallucination/dream or a completely made up story...I wonder?

Hey, DOC still waiting for your so-called evidence instead of your claims of things without evidence.
 
DOC said:
And if he never died there would be the problem of Christ appearing suddenly in the locked room implying He went right through the walls, and also his bodily ascension into heaven.
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And your source for this, outside the bible? You really don't get this 'evidence' idea at all, do you?
 
Ignored again. Perhaps DOC is saying this is the best and most appropriate response to his own questions.

DOC, to paraphrase a common argument, when you understand why you reject the Gospel of Nicodemus as a historical account, you will understand why we reject the books collected into the New Testament as historical accounts. After all, I can make exactly the same assertions about Nicodemus as you make about the New Testament, and with exactly the same basis in fact.

But understanding is not why you are here. This is your Calvary, isn't it? This is where you have chosen to climb up on the cross of historical evidence we build for you here and flail away in an effort to show Christ crucified to us all.

He lives, he lives! So does Santa Claus in exactly the same way.

Oh, the magic survival power of empathy within our brains! How empathy does sustain our species through the cold winter! Even death of our loved ones cannot stop the empathetic impulse in our brains, nor slow the flow of endorphins when we see our young playing, nor blot out the deep mark of experience that spring will soon return and the seeds bring back the low hanging fruit. How majestic is this holy place!
 
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DOC said:
And if he never died there would be the problem of Christ appearing suddenly in the locked room implying He went right through the walls, and also his bodily ascension into heaven.
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Perhaps he had a key or was in the room all the time. Can you point me in the direction of an independent account of this story.


Also how do you know he ascended to heaven. Is there any corroboration of this story. We all know how aeroplanes set off in the upward direction then when out of eye view head down again. How do you know Jesus didn't go up then down to hell. After all he is known racist Mark (7:27) who preached infanticide (Mark 7:9-10)
 
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DOC said:
Thomas was an apostle who supposedly lived with Christ for 3 years like the other apostles. He knew Christ intimately. There is a difference between a having a deep 3 year personal relationship and a one time appearance by Christ to a person for the express purpose of giving that person evidence.
Click to expand...

What about the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus? He never met Jesus while he was alive and even persecuted Christians until God supposedly appeared to him and gave him proof. He then became an apostle.

Again, why do these other people get special treatment and evidence that the rest of us don't? Paul was given evidence despite living in Jesus' time period and he could have personally interviewed people who said they had known Jesus and witnessed what he did. Paul could have gone to the places Jesus visited and double checked the authenticity of what he was being told by the disciples. Despite all this, Jesus still appeared to him and gave him evidence.

And now here I am, expected to believe some third hand accounts passed down from 2,000 years ago. Why doesn't Jesus love me enough to give me a personal appearance?
 
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