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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Well, there was one William Tyndale, who in 1536 was convicted of heresy. He was strangled to death while tied to a stake, then his corpse was burned. All at the order of the Christian Church, for the horrible, disgusting crime of translating the Bible into English.
 
charles brough said:
seems to me that most Free Thinkers assume a Jesus existed then who was executed. The problem with the front piece of this thread is that it assumes the New Testament is the "truth" because non-biblical sources mention him. This is a big leap of faith.
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Oh, most definitely. We've been trying to point out to him what a big leap it is, but for some reason it isn't sinking in.

Perhaps other "jesuses" were executed for worse crimes than trying to start a riot in the Temple and He was merely the one who was rumored to have "died for us", a rumor that spread wildly because the people had grown demoralized by the onerous decline of the Roman world.

charles
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There were definitely other supposed Messiahs around. IIRC there were at least three others before Jesus. We aren't even sure that Josephus' mention of Jesus, brother of James, refers to the guy who is supposed to be portrayed in the gospels. James and Jesus were common names at the time. Many think that the "who was called Messiah" statement was a later insertion. It is fairly clear that the other reference to Jesus in Josephus was a later forgery/addition.

I still maintain that it is more likely that there was a person underlying all the myth than that the whole thing was a complete creation, but I could be wrong.
 
This month's National Geographic has a great story on King Herod and what the archaeological record has evidenced about his reign. (Hint: He dies in 4 B.C. after a debilitating illness, thus contradicting the account in the Gospel of Matthew of him trying to off all the first-born males.)
 
six7s said:
Huh?

All we want, here on a critical thinking forum, is some evidence that supports your claim so that we can think about your claim, critically
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How do you explain the empty tomb of the Jewish Sanhedrin member mentioned in all 4 gospels and what is evidence that supports your explanation?
 
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six7s said:
Beliefs are irrelevant, especially when there is "zero, zilch, nada, nothing" in the way of supporting evidence
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What kind of evidence from 2000 years ago would satisfy you.

And the empty tomb of Joseph of Arimathea (the Sanhedrin member) is not exactly zero, zich, nothing.
 
RichardR said:
These are really lame, but I will comment on two that are demonstrably false:



Which might be a good argument if the New Testament writers were actually the disciples. But as we know, the first Gospels were written around AD 70 by people who did not even witness the events they were describing. They were certainly not written by the apostles.
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But Gospel authors Matthew (the tax collector) and John (the disciple Jesus loved) were apostles. I've already went over why it was extremely dangerous to sign any pro Jesus writings in the Roman empire and someone also mentioned in here that writings of that time were not often signed. The following shows just how dangerous it was to be a Christian during that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

And just for record my Bible list these years for the Gospels

Matthew: 60 - 70 A.D.

Mark: 60 - 65 A.D.

Luke: 60 - 65

Surely there were many people alive who could have disputed any falsehoods in the Gospels if they were written 27 - 32 years after the crucifixion. Remember how Dan Quayle in 1988 said he had more experience than Kennedy but Lloyd Benson easily remembered his friend Jack Kennedy from 28 years earlier.
 
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DOC said:
But Biblical authors Matthew (the tax collector) and John (the disciple Jesus loved) were apostles. I've already went over why it was extremely dangerous to sign any pro Jesus writings in the Roman empire and someone also mentioned in here that writings of that time were not often signed.
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So? This does not explain the lack of writings that described Jesus that were written during his lifetime.


The following shows just how dangerous it was to be a Christian during that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs
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Is this an actual argument? The list is anything but impressive and if you consider the christian persecution complex that we see daily even that list can be generous.

Also there is the little fact that life didn't become any less brutal when it became the faith of the empire. I wouldn't be surprised that more pagans were martyred by christians then the other way around.


Surely there were many people alive who could have disputed any falsehoods in the Gospels if they were written 27 - 32 years after the crucifixion. Remember how Dan Quayle said he had more experience than Kennedy but Lloyd Benson easily remembered his friend Jack Kennedy from 28 years earlier.
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No. The average low life expectancy combined with the fact that people barely traveled made it unlikely that people could have disputed it.
 
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AWPrime said:
So? This does not explain the lack of writings that described Jesus that were written during his lifetime.
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You got to live life before you can write about it. Most presidents write their memoirs after there terms not during their terms. And as stated most people back then couldn't read anyway. It was not a literary society. They didn't even have paper yet. And Jesus did a lot of moving around. Why would you want to carry heavy bulky scrolls around to write things down when most people couldn't read anyway. And I'm sure the Romans and religious leaders of the day would not take kindly to pro Jesus writings, a man the religious leaders considered a blasphemous heretic who they wanted to kill.
 
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DOC said:
You got to live life before you can write about it. Most presidents write their memoirs after there terms not during their terms. And as stated most people back then couldn't read anyway. It was not a literary society. They didn't even have paper yet. And Jesus did a lot of moving around. Why would you want to carry heavy bulky scrolls around to write things down when most people couldn't read anyway. And I'm sure the Romans and religious leaders of the day would not take kindly to pro Jesus writings, a man the religious leaders considered a blasphemous heretic who they wanted to kill.
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DOC logic="Therefore the lack of writings or evidence of Jesus is evidence that Jesus existed."
 
DOC said:
What kind of evidence from 2000 years ago would satisfy you.
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You were the one who claimed to have evidence. Right now continue to have none and just do a dishonest squirming dance to not answer a question that is apparently so obvious:
Hokulele said:
No, I want you to provide evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.
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And the empty tomb of Joseph of Arimathea (the Sanhedrin member) is not exactly zero, zich, nothing.
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Nope. It is an empty tomb which means just have an empty tomb.

Maybe they misplaced the body of Jesus? Maybe Jesus survived? Maybe flesh eating beetles got him? Maybe Jesus got bored, changed his name and became a Roman? Maybe Jesus joined Satan and is now the Anti-Christ? Maybe the magically became God? Maybe someone made the story up?

Your made up explanation is as plausible as just about any other non-evidenced explanation.
 
DOC said:
But Gospel authors Matthew (the tax collector) and John (the disciple Jesus loved) were apostles. I've already went over why it was extremely dangerous to sign any pro Jesus writings in the Roman empire and someone also mentioned in here that writings of that time were not often signed. The following shows just how dangerous it was to be a Christian during that time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs
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So? Didn't you bring up this same BS argument ooooh...several hundred posts ago?

And just for record my Bible list these years for the Gospels
Matthew: 60 - 70 A.D.
Mark: 60 - 65 A.D.
Luke: 60 - 65
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So you admit that they were written decades after Jesus supposedly lived either by hearsay, converted believers or demented old men?

Surely there were many people alive who could have disputed any falsehoods in the Gospels if they were written 27 - 32 years after the crucifixion. Remember how Dan Quayle in 1988 said he had more experience than Kennedy but Lloyd Benson easily remembered his friend Jack Kennedy from 28 years earlier.
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No. Most people didn't care about some obscure cult and most people who lived during the alleged events were already dead.
 
DOC said:
But Gospel authors Matthew (the tax collector) and John (the disciple Jesus loved) were apostles. I've already went over why it was extremely dangerous to sign any pro Jesus writings in the Roman empire and someone also mentioned in here that writings of that time were not often signed. The following shows just how dangerous it was to be a Christian during that time.
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What is the evidence, in your own words, that Matthew wrote the gospel ascribed to him and John wrote the one ascribed to him? You do realize that Irenaeus wrote in 180? That Justin, writing 30 years earlier, never mentioned any of the gospel writers by name? That there was an ongoing struggle between different Christian groups who were all claiming apostolic authority?


And just for record my Bible list these years for the Gospels

Matthew: 60 - 70 A.D.

Mark: 60 - 65 A.D.

Luke: 60 - 65
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What is the evidence for any of those dates? Those are not the generally agreed dates for any of the gospels with the possible exception of Mark.

Surely there were many people alive who could have disputed any falsehoods in the Gospels if they were written 27 - 32 years after the crucifixion. Remember how Dan Quayle in 1988 said he had more experience than Kennedy but Lloyd Benson easily remembered his friend Jack Kennedy from 28 years earlier.
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The gospels were written in backwater areas and only transmitted within small communities. First, how would any eye witness see them? Second, who among the eyewitnesses was literate? Third, how would we even know if someone objected?
 
DOC said:
You got to live life before you can write about it. Most presidents write their memoirs after there terms not during their terms. And as stated most people back then couldn't read anyway. It was not a literary society.
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BS
There we plenty of scholars back then (and not just roman/jewish ones), who made note of important events right after they occurred.
 
DOC said:
What kind of evidence from 2000 years ago would satisfy you?
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How about the evidence you claimed to have in the OP?

Failing that, an account, outside of the biblical texts, describing a previously dead person wandering around speaking to groups and/or individuals. You would think that would attract a bit of notice, no? After all, emperors come and go all the time, but previously dead people would be quite the novelty.

Once again, I do not need evidence that someone named Jesus lived around that time and gathered a following. I already feel that could very well be true. I do not need evidence that people believed he was a resurrected Messiah, people believe kooky things all the time.

I suppose a George Romero film could be considered evidence...
 
DOC said:
What kind of evidence from 2000 years ago would satisfy you.
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paximperium said:
You were the one who claimed to have evidence. Right now continue to have none and just do a dishonest squirming dance to not answer a question that is apparently so obvious:
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This is a cop out. Everybody is complaining evidence this and evidence that. But when I ask you what kind of evidence will satisfy you, nobody will tell me.
 
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