Is GM finished?

[Roadtoad]

You seem to echo WC's "screw em'" stance on the matter. While I respect this, for the reasons many have stated here, I also see a bigger picture. I've heard a lot fo numbers over the years, but the auto motive industry creates some 10 indirectly related jobs, and 3-4 directly related jobs for every 1 in the company. What about the feeder plants, whose employees saw half of the earnings their counterparts saw over the years, but continued to do their jobs to feed their families? "Screw em'"?

You can't feel sorry for GM, the UAW or the CEO's? Fine, their just an assortment of capital letters.

But can you really say the same when you put faces to those letters?

Yes. Because:

1.) I've had the same damned words said to me.

2.) They need to be said.

 

[Furcifer]

Yes. Because:

1.) I've had the same damned words said to me.

2.) They need to be said.

An eye for an eye? I think we're getting to the thick of it now. But I understand, I was told the same not too long ago.

As I've stated before though, in light of the banking bailout, I think it's hard to say this to the automotive industry. Maybe the automotive industry did this to themselves. maybe they didn't. One thing is for sure, the savings and loan fiasco accelerated it.

 

[Furcifer]

Similarly, Consumer Reports has published reliability studies for every major car manufacturer on a yearly basis for something like forty years. I don't have one to hand, but it would be relatively easy for anyone to pick one up and look at the average rating for Honda, for Toyota, and for GM.

No GM car made Consumer Reports' 2008 most reliable list. Lots of Hondas, Toyotas, and Scions, though.

Warranty Direct publishes the following:



If 3bodyproblem can show that GM averages as reliable as Toyota, I'll cheerfully admit that I'm wrong. I didn't see any GM cars in that list above, though. What did I miss?

Curious how you interpret this :http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand

This is for 2008. Seems people love their Lexus's, but GM has reliable cars in their line-up. This speaks more to me than "Warranty Direct" used car list.

If you take a look at the press release, the Lexus does very well, again for the 14th consecutive year. Nothing to scoff at. Followed by Mercury, Cadillac, Toyota, Acura and Buick. That's two American made names coming ahead of Toyota in customer satifaction and reliability.

Does this mean that GM averages as reliable as Toyota? No, I don't think so. What I am saying, and what I've been trying to say is that there are reliable cars in the GM lineup that are as good or even better than Toyota. If you want to buy an emblem, buy one. If you want a good car do some research first. Don't fall victim to the myth that perpetuates even here in a skeptical forum.

 

[Roadtoad]

An eye for an eye? I think we're getting to the thick of it now. But I understand, I was told the same not too long ago.

As I've stated before though, in light of the banking bailout, I think it's hard to say this to the automotive industry. Maybe the automotive industry did this to themselves. maybe they didn't. One thing is for sure, the savings and loan fiasco accelerated it.

Sorry that you think this is a "tit for tat" sentiment on my part. It's not.

By blocking the logical consequences of the actions of these people, by allowing this to perpetuate itself, we are making things infinitely WORSE. We are only delaying the eventual failure.

Yes, we'll be denied the Chevy Volt. But that is the result of GM's board and shareholders allowing Waggoner, Smith, Reuss, Stempel, Smith, and others to perpetuate a failing business strategy. Sorry, by doing this, not only can people not fail, but no one can really succeed. That's damned wrong.

I'm sorry this is harsh. But that's the way it is. If (and when) I buy a Kenworth, and I start hauling loads, should my business fail, there will be no bailouts for me. If it fails, it will be because I failed to plan for things like fuel prices, or because I didn't prepare for breakdowns. Those things happen in business. I have been warned that this will happen, and failing to prepare will leave things as MY responsibility, no one else's. And for me to cry to everyone, demanding that I be kept from the consequences of my actions because, by golly, I DESERVE it, is an insult to every trucker out there who prepared for the very same challenges.

GM was told, time and again, the market is not what it was. You cannot dictate tastes as you once did. Attempting to do so will lead to your FAILURE. They chose to ignore the realities, and they FAILED. Oldsmobile is no more. I am sorry as hell if GM refused to listen to every warning that was given, but they made a STUPID choice. Yes, GM is improving. I'm sorry that they chose to wait until things were this desperate before they did so.

But this is reality: Stupidity should be painful.

We will go through incredible pain because of this. It makes more sense to lay the blame where it belongs, at the feet of GM's management, and demand they give an accounting for this. Considering the huge amounts of money that have been squandered in the name of "saving" GM, Ford, Chrysler, and for that matter, so many other businesses, I think we deserve some answers.

 

[Furcifer]

But this is reality: Stupidity should be painful.

I agree, it's juat that it's a few stupid people bringing down the masses. As ususal.

Kenworth? Have you seen the mileage the Volvo's are getting? Hard to pass at considering fuel pices these days.

 

[Roadtoad]

Yeah. I've also seen the maintenance costs involved, too. The KW will cost less in the long run.

 

[drkitten]

Curious how you interpret this :http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand

Too coarse-grained a measure and therefore almost meaningless.

Does this mean that GM averages as reliable as Toyota? No, I don't think so. What I am saying, and what I've been trying to say is that there are reliable cars in the GM lineup that are as good or even better than Toyota.

So, um,.... you're saying that GM's most reliable car is almost as good as Toyota's average car and marginally better than their worst?

And that's supposed to be a statement that comes out sounding supportive of GM?

If I said that about the local sports team -- well, our starters could probably beat their last-string team --- you would probably take that as an implicit condemnation that the local team was terrible. I could get into a fight saying that in some of the bars downtown.

If you want to buy an emblem, buy one. If you want a good car do some research first.

I do. And I have at least 100 cars to choose from that are substantially better than ANY American-made GM product.

Don't fall victim to the myth that perpetuates even here in a skeptical forum.

What myth? Just as "tigers are orange and black" (despite the existence of a few albinos scattered around), so do "GM cars suck."

 

[drkitten]

It wasn't my idea, I can assure you this practice has been around for a while.

Yes. It was the dominant practice a hundred years back, before we actually learned enough economics to realize how bad it was. Do you support leech-based medicine, too?

I think it's a quaint notion that people believe this is what forced the Big 3 to introduce cost saving measures.

What's your explanation for the sudden influx of Japanese cars in the 1970s, followed by the sudden collapse in the late 1970s and early 1980s of the US car industry, followed by their retooling and rebirth?

There's enough competition between themselves without the addition of Forgeign competitors to accomplish this.

Then why didn't they introduce the cost-cutting measures until the Japanese started getting substantial market share?

If you think Toyota invented the production line, or bettered it without studying and learning from the NA's you're wrong.

I don't. The production line was invented at the turn of the century and was common knowledge by the 1970s. What was NOT common knowledge, however, was the use, for example, of robots in production -- something that was first deployed by Toyota.

Most of the advancements in production line technology have come from NA.

Doesn't matter who invented something, if the inventor is unwilling to use his inventions. GM "invented" the electric car, remember? And killed it, in a move that even management admits was bone-headed? And now Toyota has a huge market share in alternative-power vehicles that was essentially given to them by GM.

The same thing happened in the 1970s; regardless of who invented the first industrial robot, the first manufacturers that actually deployed them in quantity -- and thereby reaped the cost-saving benefits -- were Japanese. And the Big 3 had to scramble to catch up, and have been playing "catch-up" more or less ever since.

The car execs admitted in the 1970s that this is a problem; the Japanese cost structures were much less and they couldn't compete. But evidently they also were unwilling to change their own cost structures. Even today, a typical Ford costs $2,000 more to build than a comparable Toyota. As Mitt Romney put it in an op-ed in the New York Times, "Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota's Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product -- it has $2,000 more put into it."

 

[Furcifer]

Too coarse-grained a measure and therefore almost meaningless.

JD Powers (the industry standard) 3 year comparative study by brand which includes a complete breakdown of results based on several factors. You've obviously never worked in the industry. I can't begin to tell you how high these companies (all of them) jump when JD Powers arrives.(I actually had to take on extra staff to prep my area when it was announced JD Power was going to be conducting their audit) Their awards are coveted. Their stamp of approval can make or break a product.

You're only fooling yourself and showing your ignornace dismissing JD Powers as "coarse grained" and "meaningless".

 

[drkitten]

JD Powers (the industry standard) 3 year comparative study by brand which includes a complete breakdown of results based on several factors. You've obviously never worked in the industry. I can't begin to tell you how high these companies (all of them) jump when JD Powers arrives.(I actually had to take on extra staff to prep my area when it was announced JD Power was going to be conducting their audit) Their awards are coveted. Their stamp of approval can make or break a product.

You're only fooling yourself and showing your ignornace dismissing JD Powers as "coarse grained" and "meaningless".

I'm not dismissing JD Powers as coarse-grained and meaningless; I'm dismissing the summary that you presented as coarse-grained and meaningless. As you point out, people don't buy "Hondas"; they will buy, for example, a Honda Civic EX or a Honda Odyssey LX. When you average across an entire product line, you end up with a meaningless number. (Especially when there's no indication of how the averages are made -- how many Civics equate to one Odyssey?) Which is why I was looking at the models that are noted for reliability.

I stand by my dismissal.

 

[Furcifer]

Yes. It was the dominant practice a hundred years back, before we actually learned enough economics to realize how bad it was. Do you support leech-based medicine, too?

You're kidding right? Google "soft wood lumber" and then tell me the US has learned anything and the practice stopped 100 years ago.

 

[Furcifer]

I'm not dismissing JD Powers as coarse-grained and meaningless; I'm dismissing the summary that you presented as coarse-grained and meaningless. As you point out, people don't buy "Hondas"; they will buy, for example, a Honda Civic EX or a Honda Odyssey LX. When you average across an entire product line, you end up with a meaningless number. (Especially when there's no indication of how the averages are made -- how many Civics equate to one Odyssey?) Which is why I was looking at the models that are noted for reliability.

I stand by my dismissal.

You specifically stated you wanted "Toyota's" AVERAGES to "GM's" AVERAGES.

Please read your earlier post. You're going in circles.

 

[Don At Work]

Yeah, the Holden Monaro.

Do they still sell them over there? They went out of production here 2 or 3 years ago.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I live in the USA, and own a GTO. I was making the point that the GTO is pretty much a Holden, rebadged.

As far as I know, they still make the Monaro in Oz.

 

[Furcifer]

If 3bodyproblem can show that GM averages as reliable as Toyota, I'll cheerfully admit that I'm wrong. I didn't see any GM cars in that list above, though. What did I miss?

Your words, not mine.

 

[drkitten]

You specifically stated you wanted "Toyota's" AVERAGES to "GM's" AVERAGES.

Please read your earlier post. You're going in circles.

Fair enough. If you go by the strict letter of what I wrote, then you still fail, because there's no line in the JD Power data that reads "GM."

Take your pick. Either refute my argument on its merits -- which you've not done;.... or refute my argument on technicalities -- which you've still not done.

 

[Furcifer]

I'm not a proponent of protectionism. What I'm saying is if you do the resarch you may be able to find an American product that meets or exceeds the quality and reliability of the Foreign competitors. Throwing your money away is a stupid thing to do, but investing in an industry during a time of need my be appropriate. If the differences are marginal, after some research, you may want to consider buying American. If you need a compact hybrid, then buy a Prius, they're good cars and have a proven track record of reliability and fuel economy.

If buying locally is considered protectionism in your book then perhaps I am guilty. I look for local produce and pay a little extra if I have to. The same goes for many of my purchases. I avoid Wal Mart when I can, but I also know they carry more Canadian made products than Canadian Tire. I don't see anythhing wrong with being an informed shopper. That's all I'm getting at.

 

[Furcifer]

Fair enough. If you go by the strict letter of what I wrote, then you still fail, because there's no line in the JD Power data that reads "GM."

Take your pick. Either refute my argument on its merits -- which you've not done;.... or refute my argument on technicalities -- which you've still not done.

Sir you have me confused. If your argument is that Toyota Averages better than GM I've already acknowledged that. I never said they did, or meant to imply that. I'm saying their are enough reliable models in the GM line up to consider before simply buying foreign to buy foreign. There more respect between these two companies themselves than their customers have for them independently! (see Vibe/Matrix)

 

[drkitten]

I'm not a proponent of protectionism. What I'm saying is if you do the resarch you may be able to find an American product that meets or exceeds the quality and reliability of the Foreign competitors. Throwing your money away is a stupid thing to do, but investing in an industry during a time of need my be appropriate. If the differences are marginal, after some research, you may want to consider buying American. If you need a compact hybrid, then buy a Prius, they're good cars and have a proven track record of reliability and fuel economy.

And I'm saying that, having done the research, I do not believe that I can find an American product that meets the quality/reliability of the foreign competitors -- which is why I drive a Honda Civic. For what I need, which is a fuel-efficient compact, there's nothing I can find under an American nameplate that came close.

But I also don't think that my needs are particularly exceptional or unrepresentative (which is why the Civic sells so well), and for people who want a fuel-efficient midsize car, the Accord establishes quality standards. If you need a small SUV, check out the CR-V or the Toyota RAV4. Luxury sedan? The Lexus IS.

In what category of car is GM competitive in quality/reliability with "the foreign competition," as you suggest? I suppose you could hunt around and find some absolute dog of a Honda made for the Kenyan market out of Kleenex and spit that sells for either $50 US or a goat plus a chicken. But that's not what GM is competing against (at least in the US), and it doesn't seem to be able to compete successfully against its actual competition (the Civic, the Accord, the CR-V).

 

[Furcifer]

And I'm saying that, having done the research, I do not believe that I can find an American product that meets the quality/reliability of the foreign competitors -- which is why I drive a Honda Civic. For what I need, which is a fuel-efficient compact, there's nothing I can find under an American nameplate that came close.

But I also don't think that my needs are particularly exceptional or unrepresentative (which is why the Civic sells so well), and for people who want a fuel-efficient midsize car, the Accord establishes quality standards. If you need a small SUV, check out the CR-V or the Toyota RAV4. Luxury sedan? The Lexus IS.

In what category of car is GM competitive in quality/reliability with "the foreign competition," as you suggest? I suppose you could hunt around and find some absolute dog of a Honda made for the Kenyan market out of Kleenex and spit that sells for either $50 US or a goat plus a chicken. But that's not what GM is competing against (at least in the US), and it doesn't seem to be able to compete successfully against its actual competition (the Civic, the Accord, the CR-V).

The Vibe scores very well in this category. If you're over 6' tall it's probably more suited to your needs than the Civic. Cargo space goes to the Vibe as well. Is the Civic a better car? Yes, most likely. I like them and they get crazy good gas mileage. They're cheap as any other car though, and fit and finish is way below Honda's usual standard IMHO.

This is actually a very good example of my point. It's was worth considering the Vibe when you bought your Civic (not too old I hope).

 

[Disbelief]

In what category of car is GM competitive in quality/reliability with "the foreign competition," as you suggest? I suppose you could hunt around and find some absolute dog of a Honda made for the Kenyan market out of Kleenex and spit that sells for either $50 US or a goat plus a chicken. But that's not what GM is competing against (at least in the US), and it doesn't seem to be able to compete successfully against its actual competition (the Civic, the Accord, the CR-V).

You mean since the Malibu is the highest rated mid-sized, it should not be able to compete with the Accord? I believe it also gets better gas mileage. That's the Malibu that is built in Kansas (or Michigan) vs the Accord from Ohio (not Kenya).

ETA: As for the Vibe, you do know that it is a rebadged Toyota Matrix? The same cars that are built in California, running down the same lines and built by UAW workers.