How 9/11 was done

[Sparky]

That was feb 1999. Not a big stretch to assume that two-and-a-half year later real time high quality voice morphing was possible for a resourceful agency like the Mossad based on sound samples acquired via eavesdropping by telco-related Israeli firms like Amdocs or Comverse/Verint.

As I mentioned in our most recent PM exchange, this is merely creative exercise on your part until you can actually show me verifiable proof that a realtime device exists.

Like I said before, I have an open mind. All you need to do is produce something solid.

 

[Sunstealer]

Why are all of these scenarios so fiendishly complex? The sheer cost of producing all these "fantabulous" devices and the enormous amount of man power required to implement them let alone all the deception taking place such as knocking over light-poles in broad daylight on a busy highway to throw people off the scent. You'd need hundreds on millions of dollars which would leave an audit trail and probably hundreds of thousands of people to carry this all these plots out. All it would need is someone in a technical area to blow the whistle and the whole lot would come crumbling down. What ever happened to the KISS principle?

 

[MIKILLINI]

Me thank Mr. Barracuda and Joey for making my linky work-y.
Have you checked it out 9/11 investigator? As a few here have pointed out, it would be virtually impossible to modify the planes with this technology without somebody noticing. Whether it be The airlines' ground crew and/or mechanics, or the pilot going through the pre-flight check.

The only conceivable way to have done the modifications without those potential witnesses noticing would involve physically swapping the planes with identical modified duplicates.

This still doesn't change the fact that even if the airline companies were involved in the scheme of things and got away with it, the potential damage to their business would remain immense.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Dear Dr. Adequate,

There has never been a moment since the beginning of my presence here on this forum that I expected that any one of my esteemed opponents would buckle or would 'comply' as president Bush likes to put it.

The only reason is to put 'my' story to the test and maybe to harvest some new information I can incorporate in my blog.

Anything else to wish for? Yes, ending a thread like the 'dancing Israelis' within this larger 'How 9/11 was done' thread the way it is ending now. If I post 467 and all I harvest is answers from 1337m4n ('maybe they cheered for something else') or your answer ('yes, but the Arabs in the Arabian street cheered too', as a response on an observation of mine that the Israelis cheered before anybody, including them, could have a clue about what was happening) then I know I should stop. I should congratulate you with the achieved results, I should open one of my favourite Rioja's and lean backwards and listen to this piece of George Friedrich Haendel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftGbfbtWbBQ

 

[9/11-investigator]

9/11-investigator, did you ever post the evidence you have that the power was shut off at the WTC prior to 9/11? I know that you were asked, but haven't seen it.

I have made life easier for myself by dropping the constraint of having the demolition preparation job done in a weekend. If 911research is right, then demolition can be prepared from the elevator and hence there is no need for a rush. The weekend scenario was based on the notion that the power was switched off, so no regular workers doing overtime, so the Israelis could work undisturbed.

http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/scenario404.html

The demolitions of the Twin Towers and Building 7 are accomplished through the detonation of high-explosive charges inconspicuously installed in all three buildings' elevator shafts, and, in the case of Building 7, small cutter charges placed adjacent perimeter columns near the building's base.

The deployment of the explosive charges in the three World Trade Center skyscrapers is performed by a team of just three technicians working over a period of about four weeks. The explosive charges, disguised to look like lighting fixtures, are placed on the roofs of elevator cars and installed on the inside walls of the elevator shafts by a technician riding on the elevator.

No need for a power cut, just a little fence placed in front of the elevator door saying 'out of service'.

Talking about WTC... Zakheim was CEO of SPC for four years. it was an SPC subsidiary, TRIDATA CORPORATION, that oversaw the investigation after the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. The suggestion has been made that Zakheim, the most likely mastermind of 9/11, had access to the building plans of the Twin Towers.

So here is the chain: Zakheim-WTC construction plans-PNAC-remote control-comptroller of Pentagon Department that got hit on 9/11.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Why are all of these scenarios so fiendishly complex? The sheer cost of producing all these "fantabulous" devices and the enormous amount of man power required to implement them let alone all the deception taking place such as knocking over light-poles in broad daylight on a busy highway to throw people off the scent. You'd need hundreds on millions of dollars which would leave an audit trail and probably hundreds of thousands of people to carry this all these plots out. All it would need is someone in a technical area to blow the whistle and the whole lot would come crumbling down. What ever happened to the KISS principle?

It is not that much work, maybe fifty man year.

The real work is getting 200.000 man deployed in Iraq with heavy weaponry and all. Nobody denies that that happened. That's 1.000.000 man year since 2003. At least.

So, by investing 50 Israeli man year, Israel gets 1.000.000 man year for free to decapitate Israel's most important enemies. That's a leverage of 1:20.000.

Now that's efficiency!

P.S. I am glad I do not have to pay that tax bill.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Me thank Mr. Barracuda and Joey for making my linky work-y.
Have you checked it out 9/11 investigator? As a few here have pointed out, it would be virtually impossible to modify the planes with this technology without somebody noticing. Whether it be The airlines' ground crew and/or mechanics, or the pilot going through the pre-flight check.

It had been posted earlier twice, thanks anyway.

The only conceivable way to have done the modifications without those potential witnesses noticing would involve physically swapping the planes with identical modified duplicates.

You might be hitting the nail on the head here...

My blog is mainly based on this article by Bollyn:

http://www.bollyn.info/home/articles/911/theisraelinetworkbehind911/

I must apologize for missing a piece by Bollyn on exactly this issue of swapping airplanes:

http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10708

It is a story about redesigned airplanes by an Israeli company Atasco. And FTS's mounted on them. This might be a solution for the remote control problem discussed in this thread. I have yet to look into it more carefully.

P.S. FTS = flight termination system, a remote control product from Zakheim's SPC company.

P.S.2 Atasco was run by a Mossad chap named Gitner. This same Gitner became director of... ICTS, the company that owns Huntleigh, the Mossad run 'security firm' that 'handeld security' on the 9/11 departure airports. And to repeat, security on the arrival airports (WTC) was also done by an israeli run security firm Kroll associates.

The plot thickens.

 

[Sunstealer]

It is not that much work, maybe fifty man year.

Then show the breakdown of these "man years"* and onto what programmes they were spent and how long each assignment would take within those programmes. I'm after a rough outline.

*Lets assume a man year is 52 weeks multiplied by 40 man hours (Mossad only work 9-5

 

[9/11-investigator]

As I mentioned in our most recent PM exchange, this is merely creative exercise on your part until you can actually show me verifiable proof that a realtime device exists.

Like I said before, I have an open mind. All you need to do is produce something solid.

What do you mean with 'merely'?

Again my situation: I am here in the center of Amsterdam, have a laptop with a wifi-card and more than 55 unprotected signals to choose from (at night). What other positive action can I do than use google to construct a testable storyline? Asking for 'proof/evidence' is like a baby opening it's mouth in the hope that mother puts a spoon of 'proof' into it. That's not going to happen. There is no other way than trial-and-error, just like in real crime investigations. Start with facts, make a theory, discuss, replace parts of the theory and repeat this process until a story has been hammered out that is no longer easy to refute as a possibility. Then it is time for real crime fighting institutions like the FBI to collect forensic evidence, question people and so on.

Do not ask me for things you know I cannot provide.

 

[gumboot]

So, by investing 50 Israeli man year, Israel gets 1.000.000 man year for free to decapitate Israel's most important enemies. That's a leverage of 1:20.000.

If this were true, the US would have invaded Syria, Lebanon, or better yet Iran.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Then show the breakdown of these "man years"* and onto what programmes they were spent and how long each assignment would take within those programmes. I'm after a rough outline.

*Lets assume a man year is 52 weeks multiplied by 40 man hours (Mossad only work 9-5

Ouch, what a question... well very rough then...

What is the 9/11 to do list?

- Zakheim having an idea based on his experience with Tridata (wtc 1993, wtc construction data), SPC (remote control for planes), his PNAC work (let's conquor the world), his Israeli affiliations (Clean Break document), his appointment in the Pentagon where he needs to destroy evidence of 2 trillion $ missing from the books (for a big part due to gifts of military hardware to Israel by... Zakheim, earlier in his career) --> one night of missed sleep
- software manipulation using PTech as trojan horse; done in Israel by Israeli military programmers of Norad software --> couple of man years
- buying WTC, hire Israeli owned security firm Kroll --> nothing to do with 9/11 directly, normal business operation
- procedure of selecting 3 Arab patsies (finally the Mossad choose the Hamburg 3) --> unclear how much time that costs
- Murder the 3 patsies and dispose bodies --> couple of man day incl. travel from Israel.
- start laying trails at American flight schools with Israeli stand-ins for 3 'Arab hijackers' --> 3 man year
- request 'business loan' for UMS --> not much time; authorities very cooperative
- buy thermite and radiographic controlled detonators from many different suppliers with 500.000$ business loan --> 1 man year
- Assemble hundreds/thousands of compact packages of thermite + detonators in UMS buildings in New Jersey. If bored, take a brake, walk to Hudson riverside and enjoy view on WTC for inspiration --> 1 man month
- Buy computer with transmitter to control detonators. Write software in Israel by Mossad/military programmers; put the remaining 4,700$ in old sock --> 2 man months
- drive packages in UMS van to WTC basement (aided by Kroll security) put packages in elevator, put on roof elevator, go from floor to floor and mount explosives to carrying beams --> 60 man days
- On 9/11 go to Hudson, install camera's en document event, have a little party --> 5 man days
- Due to this stupidity go to jail for 10 weeks --> 1 man year (5 persons)

So the direct effort is only a couple of man year. Obviously you need many man years more for 'circumstantial labour' like acquiring voice morphing systems. Say the work of the Q's, like in James Bond.

P.S. in this post:

13th November 2008, 06:40 AM #436 Dr Adequate

says: "Your hypothetical 19 Mossad agents "

I would says that it is possibly enough to have only 3 Israeli stand-ins. For the pilots only. And Hani Hanjour might be handpicked as another patsy, who accidently took up a flying course for hobby reasons.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Look what I found here:

http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/2006/07/30/top_story.html

The good people of Malta had some trouble convincing themselves that they should give a contract to Verint/Comverse for delivery of eavesdropping facility. Reason: Malta was afraid that Israel could listen in also.

A major Israeli telecommunications company is to provide the Malta Security Services (MSS) the technology for its lawful interception system, in a controversial contract award which has landed the Malta Communications Authority in court.

New York-based Verint Systems, a subsidiary of Comverse Technology, was chosen late December 2005 by the MCA to provide an interception system for the MSS.
Concerns over the choice of Verint have sparked alarm over its parent company’s notorious link to a major espionage investigation after the September 11 attacks, raising eyebrows over the company that will have its eyes and ears on practically all Malta’s emails, and mobile telephony and VoIP exchanges.
...
Parent company Comverse, which has close links to the Israeli government, was suspected to have been used by Israeli military spies who had been monitoring al Qaeda terror suspects prior to September 11, without informing the US government of their actions.

No they did not, there was no Al Qaeda. They were eavesdropping on future 9/11 passengers.

According to the report, the system was prone to interception by unauthorised, non-law enforcement parties because Comverse had continued access to the system.

Exactly.

The FBI had already conducted investigations on Amdocs over security breaches after it suspected that records of calls in the US were falling into the hands of Israel. Concerns about the vulnerability of the system operated by Amdocs grew because of a 1997 drug trafficking case in Los Angeles in which telephone information was used to compromise the communications of the FBI.

And what about all those American politicians that are now prone to blackmail because of the spy activities of our valiant little ally in the Middle East?

The roots of the suspicions harked back to 1997, in the bust-up of a major Israeli organised crime network trafficking cocaine and ecstasy. According to investigators, criminals had access to a database through which they got the phone numbers of investigating officers, using them to avoid arrest.

Isn't that nice. A telecom system not protected against usage by the Israeli maffia.

 

[twinstead]

Dude. You're just making things up as you go. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY EVIDENCE FOR ANY OF THIS. It has already been said that this is simply an intellectual exorcise for you. You're not doing any real investigating, you're simply writing an adventure movie script.

Granted you have some imagination, but we are talking about real events and real people dying. This isn't some video game son.

 

[Thunder]

I would love it if 9-11 Investigator had one shred of evidence. I guess that is too much to ask for.

Do we believe in innocent until PROVEN guilty in this country..or not?

For some folks..the answer is...not.

 

[X]

Ouch, what a question... well very rough then...

What is the 9/11 to do list?

- Zakheim having an idea based on his experience with Tridata (wtc 1993, wtc construction data), SPC (remote control for planes), his PNAC work (let's conquer the world), his Israeli affiliations (Clean Break document), his appointment in the Pentagon where he needs to destroy evidence of 2 trillion $ missing from the books (for a big part due to gifts of military hardware to Israel by... Zakheim, earlier in his career) --> one night of missed sleep
- software manipulation using PTech as trojan horse; done in Israel by Israeli military programmers of Norad software --> couple of man years
- buying WTC, hire Israeli owned security firm Kroll --> nothing to do with 9/11 directly, normal business operation
- procedure of selecting 3 Arab patsies (finally the Mossad choose the Hamburg 3) --> unclear how much time that costs
- Murder the 3 patsies and dispose bodies --> couple of man day incl. travel from Israel.
- start laying trails at American flight schools with Israeli stand-ins for 3 'Arab hijackers' --> 3 man year
- request 'business loan' for UMS --> not much time; authorities very cooperative
- buy thermite and radiographic controlled detonators from many different suppliers with 500.000$ business loan --> 1 man year
- Assemble hundreds/thousands of compact packages of thermite + detonators in UMS buildings in New Jersey. If bored, take a brake, walk to Hudson riverside and enjoy view on WTC for inspiration --> 1 man month
- Buy computer with transmitter to control detonators. Write software in Israel by Mossad/military programmers; put the remaining 4,700$ in old sock --> 2 man months
- drive packages in UMS van to WTC basement (aided by Kroll security) put packages in elevator, put on roof elevator, go from floor to floor and mount explosives to carrying beams --> 60 man days
- On 9/11 go to Hudson, install camera's en document event, have a little party --> 5 man days
- Due to this stupidity go to jail for 10 weeks --> 1 man year (5 persons)

So the direct effort is only a couple of man year. Obviously you need many man years more for 'circumstantial labour' like acquiring voice morphing systems. Say the work of the Q's, like in James Bond.

P.S. in this post:

13th November 2008, 06:40 AM #436 Dr Adequate

says: "Your hypothetical 19 Mossad agents "

I would says that it is possibly enough to have only 3 Israeli stand-ins. For the pilots only. And Hani Hanjour might be handpicked as another patsy, who accidentally took up a flying course for hobby reasons.

And do you have any factual evidence for these activities, or are they just what you think is possible?

Oh, and could you please reply to this post?



At the moment, your hypothetical scenario is very far indeed from plausibility.

The accepted narrative (involving Al-Qaeda, hijackings, and planes being flown into buildings) enjoys the luxuries of not needing to ignore/twist/invent evidence. It fits with what is known (which is why it's accepted).
Your narrative ignores and even contradicts most of the existing evidence, and ignores the rest.

Your hypothesis requires:
* real-time voice morphing technology
* aircraft retrofitted to be remotely operable (via systems that cannot be overpowered/disengaged/disconnected and be undetectable by people intimate with the aircraft)
* the ability to rig a building for demolition from only the elevator shafts, undetected, in a short time span
* thermite (which can't cut horizontally) and detonators or explosives (make up your mind which one it is, please) which must remain completely undetected and be unaffected by the aircraft impact, while still going off reliably and precisely without being seen, heard, or seismically detected

Not a single one of these things existed in a fashion that could be used on 9/11/2001. Not a single one. I don't think any of them exist even now.

And yet this doesn't seem to phase you at all.

You have an idea of how you think a conspiracy could have been pulled off. As you said, you're testing your hypothesis.

But, for someone who is testing a hypothesis, you sure seem unwilling to let go of a concept.
You have no proof, you have no evidence, and you keep having to extend your theory to prop up its rapidly failing walls.

At what point do you abandon the idea as fundamentally unworkable?

Keep this in mind:
You are accusing people, currently held innocent in light of the evidence, of being guilty of mass murder.
You are exonerating people, shown guilty by the evidence and their own admission, of the crime.

You are letting convicted killers off the hook in favour of unfounded speculation.


That is why people here keep demanding you provide evidence for your claims.

So: Put up or shut up. No more excuses about not having access to the evidence. No more stalling by claiming you are just testing the waters, and playing out ideas.

It's patently obvious that you do have an agenda, and you do have a theory you want to push forward.

Now give your supporting evidence, or admit that you have not a single shred of proof in support of your "testable storyline".

 

[Sparky]

What do you mean with 'merely'?

That it most likely will serve no purpose in the long run.

Then it is time for real crime fighting institutions like the FBI to collect forensic evidence, question people and so on.

The FBI does not conduct investigations based on mere conjecture.

Do not ask me for things you know I cannot provide.

Then don't ask me to blindly accept your version of events when actual evidence tends to refute it. I have an open mind, not an empty one.

 

[Blackadder_no]

What's with all these time loops?

Seriously?

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Ouch, what a question... well very rough then...

What is the 9/11 to do list?

- Zakheim having an idea based on his experience with Tridata (wtc 1993, wtc construction data), SPC (remote control for planes), his PNAC work (let's conquor the world), his Israeli affiliations (Clean Break document), his appointment in the Pentagon where he needs to destroy evidence of 2 trillion $ missing from the books (for a big part due to gifts of military hardware to Israel by... Zakheim, earlier in his career) --> one night of missed sleep
- software manipulation using PTech as trojan horse; done in Israel by Israeli military programmers of Norad software --> couple of man years
- buying WTC, hire Israeli owned security firm Kroll --> nothing to do with 9/11 directly, normal business operation
- procedure of selecting 3 Arab patsies (finally the Mossad choose the Hamburg 3) --> unclear how much time that costs
- Murder the 3 patsies and dispose bodies --> couple of man day incl. travel from Israel.
- start laying trails at American flight schools with Israeli stand-ins for 3 'Arab hijackers' --> 3 man year
- request 'business loan' for UMS --> not much time; authorities very cooperative
- buy thermite and radiographic controlled detonators from many different suppliers with 500.000$ business loan --> 1 man year
- Assemble hundreds/thousands of compact packages of thermite + detonators in UMS buildings in New Jersey. If bored, take a brake, walk to Hudson riverside and enjoy view on WTC for inspiration --> 1 man month
- Buy computer with transmitter to control detonators. Write software in Israel by Mossad/military programmers; put the remaining 4,700$ in old sock --> 2 man months
- drive packages in UMS van to WTC basement (aided by Kroll security) put packages in elevator, put on roof elevator, go from floor to floor and mount explosives to carrying beams --> 60 man days
- On 9/11 go to Hudson, install camera's en document event, have a little party --> 5 man days
- Due to this stupidity go to jail for 10 weeks --> 1 man year (5 persons)

So the direct effort is only a couple of man year. Obviously you need many man years more for 'circumstantial labour' like acquiring voice morphing systems. Say the work of the Q's, like in James Bond.

P.S. in this post:

13th November 2008, 06:40 AM #436 Dr Adequate

says: "Your hypothetical 19 Mossad agents "

I would says that it is possibly enough to have only 3 Israeli stand-ins. For the pilots only. And Hani Hanjour might be handpicked as another patsy, who accidently took up a flying course for hobby reasons.

Here's the problem. Your entire "to-do" list is full of things that have been proven did NOT happen. Once again, I applaud you for putting forth effort and constructing a narrative - but David Icke does that, and he believes we're all being controlled by reptilian aliens.

The fact that you don't seem to offer up any sort of supporting evidence or even inconsistencies in the Official Theory that would point to the possibility that anything in your to-do list actually happened, makes you no better than David Icke in my book.

Actually, I take that back. I don't think you're trying to make money off of this theory. Yet.

By the way...you said you have your pick of 55 unprotected Wi-Fi signals to choose from? Better hope they don't start putting WPA on them, or god forbid you might actually have to pay for your access like the rest of us do.

 

[Brainache]

...
There is no other way than trial-and-error, just like in real crime investigations. Start with facts, make a theory, discuss, replace parts of the theory and repeat this process until a story has been hammered out that is no longer easy to refute as a possibility. Then it is time for real crime fighting institutions like the FBI to collect forensic evidence, question people and so on.

...

You do realise that the FBI and several other real crime fighting institutions have already spent quite a few man-hours investigating 9/11, don't you?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Let's go back to hear what Fox News had to say:
The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards.

But we do not need the New York Times:

Is that code for "I looked up the New York Times article, and it was in fact misrepresented in the Fox News reference", or code for "I couldn't find the New York Times article"? Either way, we have at best a third-hand source without any verification of its claims. Newspapers do sometimes get things wrong, you know. And, as I pointed out earlier, your understanding of investigative journalism is rather poor here. You're trying to modify the conclusions drawn from a primary source - "Maria" - by quoting secondary sources that have drawn their own erroneous extrapolated conclusions from the same primary source. This includes the BOLO report, which came the same day, before anyone had had time to interpret the evidence carefully, and while every shadow looked like a terrorist.

There can be no doubt, the Israelis were at the water front with film camera's installed waiting for an anticipated event to occur before the first impact. Not that it matters much. Even if they had been spotted first after the second impact (which is not the case), that had been more than enough proof of advance knowledge. It is simply impossible for 3-5 Israeli 'movers' to infer from 2 planes crashing into the twin towers, that it had been Arab hijackers who had done so.

There is no evidence that the Israelis were spotted even before the second impact, and by the time of the second impact it was obvious to anyone with their brain engaged that there was a causal connection, which could only be a terrorist attack. As for the inference drawn by Israelis, who else would be carrying out a terrorist attack on America?

I have made life easier for myself by dropping the constraint of having the demolition preparation job done in a weekend. If 911research is right, then demolition can be prepared from the elevator and hence there is no need for a rush. The weekend scenario was based on the notion that the power was switched off, so no regular workers doing overtime, so the Israelis could work undisturbed.

http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/analysis/scenario404.html

The demolitions of the Twin Towers and Building 7 are accomplished through the detonation of high-explosive charges inconspicuously installed in all three buildings' elevator shafts, and, in the case of Building 7, small cutter charges placed adjacent perimeter columns near the building's base.

The deployment of the explosive charges in the three World Trade Center skyscrapers is performed by a team of just three technicians working over a period of about four weeks. The explosive charges, disguised to look like lighting fixtures, are placed on the roofs of elevator cars and installed on the inside walls of the elevator shafts by a technician riding on the elevator.

No need for a power cut, just a little fence placed in front of the elevator door saying 'out of service'.

And this is the other favourite conspiracist's approach: the incestuous reference. Scenario 404 is simply another piece of unsupported conjecture, and any attempt at a critical reading shows it to be littered with absurdities, one of which I already pointed out (and you ignored). Here's another: linear shaped charges, as used to cut steel columns, need to be placed in close contact with the columns to be cut, so as to be able to use the shaped charge effect. Any separation will drastically reduce the effect of the charge. Placing a demolition charge on steel requires stripping away of any fireproofing or cosmetic cladding in order for the charge to work at all, otherwise the blast is able to disippate. How was this possible in the ten seconds per charge that Scenario 404's incredibly hard working technicians had for installation? Quite simply, charges on the elevator shaft walls won't actually cut the columns.

Dave