Is GM finished?

Darth Rotor said:
Prediction: President Obama (assuming he wins in a week or so) ensures GM is propped up so that the volt can be produced, and to save jobs in Michigan. Eye on the 2010 mid term election.

McCain, were he to win, might to likewise, for similar reasons. Not saying either is the most brilliant idea ever, but I recall why a Chrysler Corporation government bailout went down: guess who was building lots of bits of the M-1 Abrams tank? Maybe GM has some things that are worth preserving.

TheJim: I sense that you feel present management isn't one of them. :D

DR
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You got that right. When we the tax payers do end up taking it over I just hope they send some treasury agents and IRS agents in looking for any reason to charge the management team with any crime possible just for being so inept.

GM will be saved by either McCain or Obama since GM and its suppliers are directly responsible for around 700,000 jobs throw in another 500,000 jobs based on those jobs and that will destroy the economies of Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Indiana and parts of Illinois. Which is something like 20 percent of the nations population. No politician will take the chance of that happening it is political suicide.

The Volt will not be released until 2012 at the earliest if it ever is released. GM still has not announced a battery supplier. If it is Obama, he will push hard for the model to be produced and probably accept a huge loss on each unit to show how Detroit needs to change.

Well the big reason for the original Chrysler bail out was they actually had a plan. They had both the K-Car and the minivan near production with solid market research numbers showing the potential sales success of the models, the accepted a huge amount of government oversight including Treasury official's on the board and looking at the books along with an agreement that the government could fire the management at any time. GM has no K-Car or minivan in the pipeline. They don't even have a real hybrid platform or powertrain that can compete with Toyota or Honda's, they don't have anything at all that looks like a new segment definer. If there was an American Car Company that could make great use of bailout money it is Ford that actually has a handful of models that could make a real sales success in the near future.
 
69dodge said:
"True difference in weight"? What do you mean? "Equivalent" in what sense?

(I know that low unsprung weight is good for handling, but it doesn't seem like the discussion was about handling, just about plain weight.)
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I use quotes because I am not an engineer and was not sure of the exact terminology. What I was trying to get across is that even if a hypothetical Crossover "a" and a sedan "b" had the same curb weight, "b" would still perform as if it weighed any where from 40 to 120 lbs less because of the unsprung weight. The unsprung weight is not only good for handling but also acceleration and braking along with being easier on wearable suspension items.
 
http://business.theage.com.au/business/gm-burning-up-cash-asks-for-state-aid-20081108-5kda.html

General Motors, seeking federal aid to avoid collapse, said it may not have enough cash to keep operating this year and will fall ``significantly short'' of the amount needed by the end of June unless the auto market improves or it raises more capital.

The largest US automaker reported a $US4.2 billion third-quarter operating loss today and said its available cash fell to $US16.2 billion on Sept. 30 from $US21 billion at the end of June. Merger talks with Chrysler LLC were suspended.

``GM is making a pretty direct plea for help,'' said Pete Hastings, a fixed-income analyst at Morgan Keegan Inc. in Memphis, Tennessee. ``The message is, `we've done all the things we can do, and we need help.' And if we don't get help, fill in the blank.''

The cash drain reflected the strain of a 21% slump in US sales in the quarter as the credit freeze deepened. It also added urgency to US automakers' request for government aid. The companies are asking for $US50 billion in new loans, a person familiar with the proposal said.
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GM has lost 75 billion since 2004.
 
GM suffers from the highest production costs in the industry...with some of the union agreements and their inability to modernize assembly lines, they will have a tough time for quite a time. (I am not anti-union, but some of the benefits are incredibly generous...they would continue to build cars they knew they would lose money on because it was still cheaper than having to pay benefit associated with layoffs.)

glenn
 
I just got back from vacationing in Florida ... rented a Chevrolet Cobalt with automatic transmission (that's all they had ... I hate not having a manual). Anyway, I drove around 150 miles of both city/highway and used just under 8 gallons. Ahhh, that translates to below 20 mpg. The car had only 3500 miles on it, and it ran just fine. Why the crappy mileage? Is GM still not getting the fuel economy of many imports?
 
Roadtoad said:
As to GM, the problem is they refuse to build cars that people want. It really is that simple. They can blame the unions all they want, they can blame pension plans to their hearts' content. But the reality is that unless you are making cars that people will actually buy, you're wasting time and money.
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I've had a number of GM cars over the years, some were better than others. I had a Saturn on lease for 3 years in the late 90's and had zero problems with it. Prior to that I had a Cavalier, which was okay but not great. I now drive a Honda minivan, which is fantastic. I went to look at the GM minivans, and they sucked hard. They seemed to be more interested in making them look SUVish (with a long hood) that they had less interior room and didn't have the rear fold into the floor seat. So, to this extent at least, I'd agree that part of their problem is the car selection.

Another problem is the lack of any brand equity in the cars themselves. Honda is a great example of this. They have the Civic, Accord, Odyssey, CRV, etc. No matter how many revamps they go through, they keep the same name. People have come to expect that a Honda Civic is a good small car. The same can't be said for GM. I'm not sure what the GM equivalent of the Civic is anymore.

But finally, I want to put a plug in against the Unions. I know someone who worked as a summer student in a union GM shop and her stories about the workers there are horrific. An overwhelming sense of entitlement and laziness. She was picking parts and had a quota of X parts per hour. If left alone to do her job, she would come close to doubling this quota. This made the full timers mad, and they would actually prevent her from working (by parking their trucks at either end of a warehouse aisle to prevent her from going anywhere) just so that they wouldn't look bad by comparison to her work output. The auto workers unions suck.
 
I just got a Saturn Astral and love it. I think gm makes the best cars out of the big 3. I went to a Saturn, ford and used Honda dealership and found that the people at the American car dealerships were the most honest. The guy at the Honda dealership would have told you the Honda was faster than a Porsche if he thought you'd believe it.

I don't understand the craze over japanese cars. People should buy american cars!
 
skepticalbeliever said:
I just got a Saturn Astral and love it. I think gm makes the best cars out of the big 3. I went to a Saturn, ford and used Honda dealership and found that the people at the American car dealerships were the most honest. The guy at the Honda dealership would have told you the Honda was faster than a Porsche if he thought you'd believe it.

I don't understand the craze over japanese cars. People should buy american cars!
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What is a Saturn Astral?


Everything I've read about the Saturn Astra (including Saturn's ads) tells me it's from Europe (it's an Opel there), so if you did buy an Astra ,your American car was actually designed and made in Germany.

ETA: Further googling has motorauthority.com stating that current Astras (the article is dated Aug.23,2008) are sourced in Belguim.

Anyway, still not made in the USA, although the article says there are plans to do so.
 
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FreshHat said:
What is a Saturn Astral?


Everything I've read about the Saturn Astra (including Saturn's ads) tells me it's from Europe (it's an Opel there), so if you did buy an Astra ,your American car was actually designed and made in Germany.
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I own an older Astra. Quite zippy for a small 4, handles well, but the quality is not up to Japanese standards. Made in Belguim, from what I have heard, or Hungary.
 
FreshHat said:
What is a Saturn Astral?


Everything I've read about the Saturn Astra (including Saturn's ads) tells me it's from Europe (it's an Opel there), so if you did buy an Astra ,your American car was actually designed and made in Germany.

ETA: Further googling has motorauthority.com stating that current Astras (the article is dated Aug.23,2008) are sourced in Belguim.

Anyway, still not made in the USA, although the article says there are plans to do so.
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The Honda Civic, meanwhile, is made in East Liberty, Ohio and Alliston, Ontario.
 
Valid point, Thanz.

While I was a Teamster, I really didn't see the abuses that you did in other shops. However, you'd read the report from the Independent Review Board, and realize that there are a lot of locals that simply don't get it. People will not thrive under corruption. People who thrive will do well, but in order to do so, they must accept responsibility for their own well being.

Funny thing about those "Japanese" cars being built here in America: They've turned out to be better than the ones I've driven that were actually built in Japan.

So, what's the problem? Simple: If you don't have to earn the business, you generally won't. You'll only work as hard as you have to. And if you've sat around for several decades getting soggy around the middle, there's no way in hell you're going to be able to actually compete in a global marketplace.

Further, add in the Federal requirements for American cars, and how Pelosi and Reid are pressing for the government actually getting a stake in the Big Three, (BIG mistake!!!), and it's only a matter of time before they all fade out. At no point were the Big Three run like businesses. They were someone's private empire, and in the end, they trashed it.

Considering the people who have destroyed these companies will still be running them once they get Federal bail-out funds, why would you give them ANY money in the first place?
 
Roadtoad said:
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Considering the people who have destroyed these companies will still be running them once they get Federal bail-out funds, why would you give them ANY money in the first place?
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I suspect it has more to do with maintaining political control in a couple of important swing states than with actually trying to fix the problem.
 
Prometheus said:
I suspect it has more to do with maintaining political control in a couple of important swing states than with actually trying to fix the problem.
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I suspect that 2 million or so lost jobs in the current economic condition has more to do with it than "maintaining political control in a couple of important swing states."

Look, I am NOT for saving GM out of some sort of loyalty to the company. On the contrary, I would actually like to see them take it on the chin to wake some others up.

I also don't have a lot of love for the UAW I do think they are partly to balm for this mess.

THAT SAID.

Can the American economy really take the hit right now? It's not just the 2 million or so potently lost jobs, we also have to figure in just how demoralizing it would be to the US consumer to see "General Moters".. THE icon of American manufacturing, go down the tubes. How are consumers going to react to a GM failure? I suspect pretty poorly.

I think GM just might be "too big to fail right now."
 
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In a perfect world here is what I would like to see happen.

The Gov. bails out GM but with some very hard conditions including

1) A major commitment to renewable energy research

2) Acceptance of strong CAFE standards the auto industry has resisted for years (which is part of the reason they and we are in the mess we are in now)

3) Complete suspension of any and all golden parachutes as well as a massive reduction in executive salaries

4) Major concessions from the unions along with some acknowledgement that they are partly at fault, it isn't just the "fat cats" that caused this problem.

5) An overhaul of how GM does business from a strategic standpoint (not chasing low hanging fruit like SUV's without some sort of longer term game plan that takes into account rising fuel costs and swings in customer purchasing habits).

6) Acceptance of some government oversight while GM is paying back it's LOAN (this isn't a free ride).
 
Prometheus said:
I suspect it has more to do with maintaining political control in a couple of important swing states than with actually trying to fix the problem.
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Bingo. I also suspect there is something of a Payback issue to be settled with the Democrats.
 
not_so_new said:
I think GM just might be "too big to fail right now."
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Funny how we keep hearing the phrase "too big to fail" at this moment in time, but never in the recent past have we heard anyone argue some being "too big to exist" (implying they're too big for their own good).
 
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Just thinking said:
Funny how we keep hearing the phrase "too big to fail" at this moment in time, but never in the recent past have we heard anyone argue some being "too big to exist" (implying they're too big for their own good).
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Did you happen to read the rest of my post?

I don't like any of this, I REALLY hate the idea of my tax dollars going to help these companies who drove their businesses into the gutter through their own short sightedness and greed.

GM got themselves into this mess, if these were ordinary times and I had my way I would say let them fail completely.... but in case we haven't noticed.... these are not ordinary times.

I don't know if a GM bailout is a good idea, I don't know if it would even help because GM might be too far gone at this point, I don't know if it's possible to even talk about a bail out with all the other things going on.

BUT

I do know this is NO time for knee-jerk reactions, political gamesmanship or vendetta policies.

It could be that everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill and the real economy is just suffering a small speed bump, in which case letting GM fail is the prudent thing to do and a bailout is just throwing good money after bad.

But if perhaps the economy is starring down the barrel of the gun are we 100% SURE that the collapse of GM isn't the final nudge on the trigger?

Again, I am just saying that we should be thinking things through instead of riding GM out on the rails in the "let them all suffer" train.... because we could be in the same box car.
 
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