How NOT to run a debunking site

[jaydeehess]

perhaps mis-reported by a journalist who became confused somehow.
.

Last night my local paper ran a story on a person I know. They said he had 26 years experience as a stage manager for a television station.
Nope, he had 26 years experience as the television station manager.

Someone says he held this that and the other thing and actually held the black boxes can easily become construed as his having found them himself.
How about anyone actually interested looks at how the NTSB determined where they were found? Gee, that might take more than a google search of news items!

 

[Baylor]

Someone says he held this that and the other thing and actually held the black boxes can easily become construed as his having found them himself.

Not if he says he found them himself.

Kilsheimer traversed the charred corridors of the scarred structure, oftentimes unsure of what he’d find. In fact, “I stepped on the plane’s black box by accident.”

 

[Baylor]

It would be neat to sort this out and put confusion to rest

What better place to put it to rest than here in the JREF?

The title for Gravy's thread is "Where 9/11 Conspiracies are laid to rest", which links to his site, which has information that only spawns conspiracy theories.

from wtc7lies.googlepages.com/pentagonattackpage2

Firefighters discover Pentagon black box FDR Flight data recorder

from Firefight, (taken from JamesB's post)

About half an hour later another NTSB expert uncovered a device that looked like it could be the other black box. It turned out to be the flight data recorder, which collected electronic information about the operation of the jet. Both of the black boxes had finally been found, pulled like two broken shells from an ocean of debris.

You can see these conspiracies coming from a mile away.

 

[Magenta]

What better place to put it to rest than here in the JREF?

If this is still bothering you why not contact the authors of Firefight? Theirs is the most recent exposition on the Pentagon and they likely researched the same accounts you've referenced in this thread. Possibly even interviewed some of these people.

Their contact details are on their website:

http://www.firefightthebook.com/press_inquiries.php

 

[Baylor]

If this is still bothering you why not contact the authors of Firefight?

Please read the OP. Thank you.

 

[Magenta]

Perhaps you can clarify what you are hoping to achieve with this thread. I thought you wanted to resolve who found the recorders and where, but I could be mistaken.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Gist of the OP:

Having two popular debunking sites post conflicting stories only gives truthers the fuel they need for the fire.

To the extent there really is a discrepancy, this does present unneeded undergrowth deadwood that doesn't help. But as I pointed out, the woo fire needs no special fuel to burn. You can hack out all the trees and leave just air and rock, and the fire will swoop through as it pleases anyway.

What better place to put it to rest than here in the JREF?

No one is standing in your way. Why don't you offer your own thoughts, and see what others say? Apparently no one else is excited to take the lead in clearing this small thatch of brush. Trust me, I know the feeling (too much NoC evidence? Nah, everyone says...). It is interesting, but I'm burned out. Just take the lead, or don't.

 

[Baylor]

Perhaps you can clarify what you are hoping to achieve with this thread.

Well, I wanted to show that there's some wrong information on debunking sites, and it's just as important to point it out. Wouldn't you have a problem with a debunking site that says the towers collapsed because the fires melted the steel?

And, starting this thread allows us to share what we know with each other. Because of this, I feel Arus's complaint is unwarranted. I never read Firefight, so I never heard that there are even more people claiming to have found the black boxes.

I thought you wanted to resolve who found the recorders and where, but I could be mistaken.

I would love to, but it doesn't look like anyone has the definitive answer. I guess I'll have to do some research of my own. Damn it.

 

[Baylor]

Why don't you offer your own thoughts, and see what others say?

Before I started this thread, I would've put my money on Kilsheimer, but now that looks to be a bad bet. Maybe someone will stumble on this thread with a definitive answer. Meanwhile, I appreciate Kryptos for taking down the part that says Burkhammer found the boxes. I had no idea he or she was the site's administrator.

As of now, I have no idea who found the black boxes, but here are the odds.

Burkhammer 25/1
Kilsheimer 4/1
NTSB 2/1

Just take the lead, or don't.

There are a lot more qualified people here (Reheat?) and besides, I'm too stupid to take the lead.

 

[Caustic Logic]

There are a lot more qualified people here (Reheat?) and besides, I'm too stupid to take the lead.

I know that feeling too.

 

[Magenta]

I would love to, but it doesn't look like anyone has the definitive answer. I guess I'll have to do some research of my own. Damn it.

That's why I suggested contacting the Firefight authors. They may have already sorted out the seeming contradictions. It's either that or tracking down each of the witnesses who claim to have seen or handled either of the recorders.

 

[JihadJane]

I don't know much about the Debunker community but, from reading JREF forum, it seems to be very tiny. Does anyone know how big it is or what motivates people to become debunkers?

 

[funk de fino]

I don't know much about the Debunker community but, from reading JREF forum, it seems to be very tiny. Does anyone know how big it is or what motivates people to become debunkers?

I have no idea about a community but the TM is tiny so the DB would also be?

I got into this because I saw liars telling lies to people to try and convince them that 3000 people were murdered by the USG. If I had not seen the lies I would not have gotten involved probably. The lies were being told on a music website by a pair of stupids. Unfortunately since digging deeper it seems the vast majority of the TM are stupids also. The rest seem to be liars or have a mental disease of some sort. The exceptions are the trolls who just like playing games.

 

[twinstead]

The 'debunker community' is probably tiny. Most people accept that truthers are mosty idiots and get on with life. Not many actually want to go on an internet forum and debate them, but those who do HAVE to--the truthers aren't found in the halls of justice or banging on the MSM's doors or publishing papers in real scientific journals, they are blathering away on relatively obscure internet forums.

 

[JihadJane]

I have no idea about a community but the TM is tiny so the DB would also be?

I got into this because I saw liars telling lies to people to try and convince them that 3000 people were murdered by the USG. If I had not seen the lies I would not have gotten involved probably. The lies were being told on a music website by a pair of stupids. Unfortunately since digging deeper it seems the vast majority of the TM are stupids also. The rest seem to be liars or have a mental disease of some sort. The exceptions are the trolls who just like playing games.

Thanks for your response.

Why does it bother you whether or not the "USG" is complicit in murder? Anyone who wants to get to the top of the political ladder knows that they may be called upon to sanction acts of mass murder.

Are you saying that "trolls who just like playing games" (S&M games lover you? ) don't have mental diseases?

 

[funk de fino]

Thanks for your response.

Its OK, I generally like to reply or answer, unlike some I could mention.

Why does it bother you whether or not the "USG" is complicit in murder? Anyone who wants to get to the top of the political ladder knows that they may be called upon to sanction acts of mass murder.

I dont like people lying to accuse someone of doing something they have no proof for. I was addressing the lies I did not care about the USG. In fact I have a dislike for the current USG. Bushco was already at the top he did not have to kill 3,000 to get there.

Are you saying that "trolls who just like playing games" (S&M games lover you? ) don't have mental diseases?

I have no idea.

 

[Alareth]

Wait wait wait ... I thought Dylan found the black box

 

[Magenta]

The other thing to consider with the multiple sightings of the recorders at the Pentagon is whether each was recovered in one intact albeit battered piece or whether they were broken up. If the latter, then that may account for the multiple claims of having found a "black box".

If you compare the photos on Kryptos' website of the recovered CVR and FDR with photos of pristine recorders on the NTSB website then I think we're talking about multiple pieces. Even the FDR, which was usable, is missing its "box" section.

 

[jaydeehess]

Please read the OP. Thank you.

So the point then is not to decide who found the boxes and where but to find out why there are incorrect stories published?

That goes to journalism and human fallibility. I have made reference to more than one instance of erroneous reporting. In one the person interviewed supposedly told the reporter that he was a "stage manager". He did not. He told the reporter he had been a "station manager". This is but ONE example of erroneous reporting.

In the other I outlined that a child was reported found in two dirrent places miles apart and under different circumstances. Does that mena there was a nefarious plot affot in either case?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

Wow!