A Thermite/Thermate Question

[GodisEnergy]

 

[PhantomWolf]

You realise that when it says that nano-thermites are explosive, it means they explode, they can't be used for cutting. They are used in airbag systems for that exact reason. As I said, more Alien Technology, you (well actually Jones cause you are merely his parrot) are simply attempting to give some mythical thermite sample all the properties you want it to have all while ignoring and failing to prove what properties it really would have, or that it even exists in any form for usage. It might as well be Alien Technology.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

And the reason for the photos rather than just a link is because the 9/11 cultists who made the photos got to add their own terminology and wording into it to mislead people into thinking that the actual web site is making the claims or using the terms.

 

[GodisEnergy]

yes its explosive .Thats a good thing for controlled demolotions.
they cant be used for cutting ? then what are they for ! i already provided a link showing the usage in demolotion of nuclear power plants .

The nano thermite shoot liquid metal straight through steel the other link i provided admits to this

I dont understand why you dont beleive it exists ive shown you govt links and companies who make the stuff.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

all part of the hush-a-boom!

 

[PhantomWolf]

yes its explosive .Thats a good thing for controlled demolotions.

Why do you assume that any explosive would work for CD?

they cant be used for cutting ? then what are they for !

The quote that Jones provided show a number of applications for NanoThermtes.

Gunpower replacement in bullets, propellent in things such as airbag systems and such, pryotechnics.

i already provided a link showing the usage in demolotion of nuclear power plants .

you did? Can you repost?

The nano thermite shoot liquid metal straight through steel the other link i provided admits to this

You mean your Thermite Gun? That doesn't use nanothermites

I dont understand why you dont beleive it exists ive shown you govt links and companies who make the stuff.

Where have you shown that either the Government or anyone makes the thermites mixtures that Jones claimed was used? I challanged you to show it, you never did. The best you did was linking to a site that does alternative thermite experiments as... experiments.

 

[GodisEnergy]

be warned this document is 18mbs i edited out some boring bits
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cove...M/webviewable/

"2.5.2. I The Thermite Cutting Technique
The thermite cutting process consists of heating and melting the metal in the cutting area by the
thermal energy released during combustion of a therrnite mixture (under conditions of an exother- ,
tic reaction). The products generated by combustion of the thennite mixture issue from the combustion
chamber under pressure in the form of a mixture of condensed gases, which affords the
opportunity of cutting almost any metal in any attitude. The application of this cutting technique to
nonmetallic materials also seems feasible, especially the dismantling of the reinforced concrete
structural elements. However, no domestic experience has been acquired to date using thermite
cutting in nuclear power engineering.
Research to substantiate the preliminary design and technological solutions of cutting metalwork
with the therrnite cutting technique have made it possible to identi~ the following conditions for
cutting plate-type materials and piping:


the products resulting from the combustion of a thermite compound must be generated in the
form of a directed jet and must possess a large store of heat and kinetic energy
the combustion products must ensure a high level of convective heat exchange during the
demolition of metalwork
during the combustion of a pyrotechnic compound, a maximum number of condensed liquid
products with a high heat capacity must be formed
the number of gaseous products formed must be nlinirnal, but sufficient for transporting the
condensed phase to the obstacle.



As a result of the experimental work performed, the following conclusions were reached:

Two conceptually diverse compounds were evaluated in the research studies: slightly gassy mixtures
based on a iron-aluminium thermite with the addition of potassium perchIorate and strontium
nitrate (compound “A” mixtures), and gassy mixtures based on an aluminum-magnesium alloy with
an oxidizer using Polytetrafluoroethylene as its base (compound “B” mixtures).


Almost any metal or nonmetallic material can be subjected to thermite cutting.
The thermite cutting process can be petiornied in different attitudes (i.e., without manipulating
the articles being cut).
The thermite cutting technique makes it possible to cut tube bundles when access is only
possible from one direction.
The therrnite cutting technique ensures autonomous work petiormance under conditions of high
radioactivity away ilom electric power, fiel gas, and oxygen supply sources (in the presence of
high ionizing radiation dose rate levels).
The thermite cutting technique is characterized by maneuverability and the small dimensions of
its devices, which allows use of the technique in hard-to-reach locations.
The pyrotechnic cutting torch can be used with automatic and remote-control systems

heres some stuff on nano thermites .Discovered just after 911


https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/302999.pdf


Theres alot more information on ae911truths slide show 100-200 pages.
If you had bothered reading it ,

1,3 dimethypropane was found in large quantities to at the wtc
this is a main ingredient of SOLGEL

 

[Jonnyclueless]

You forget that the whole reason for making the thermite argument is not because there is evidence, but because it's the only way to try and explain the complete lack of audible demolition charges going off. So now that you are flip-flopping to an explosive version, it defeats the whole purpose of thermite to begin with (which was to explain the lack of explosions).

But this illustrates here that many 9/11 cult members are not actually interested in any facts but simply trying to come up with any attempt they can to believe it was a controlled demolition. As opposed to looking at the actual evidence and making a conclusion, the process is to start with a controlled demolition and see if they can find a way to make it possible.

And still, thermite is not capable of leaving metal melted for weeks which is the other argument for thermite (which is just idiotic).

 

[PhantomWolf]

Yes i understand what i gave you,thats why there metal oxides, copper oxides etc.You can mix different thermite mixtures together.

But to what result? Thermite works because it's an oxidation/reduction between two compounds. If you start adding in different oxidation states and different metals you will change the way it works. So far I have yet to see any evidence that the mixture Jones claims exists does exist as a comercial or military blend, and/or that it will burn with the properties he merely attributes to it. Thus until he shows it, it might as well be Alien Technology.

be warned this document is 18mbs i edited out some boring bits

Funny thing, the boring bits you edited out seem to be the more interesting bits as it puts the entire thing in context.

Firstly, this is a possible usuage, they were doing experiments to see if it would work. Second they did the tests on thin metals, pipes that were only 6mm thick, a metal plate that was 6mm thick, and the thickest being rebar at 36mm. The WTC columns varyed from 2 inches (50mm) on the side to 5 inches (125mm) thick on the ends (ref). They did state that thicker metals could be cut, but also noted issues with that saying "However, this entails an increase in the consumption of the thermite compound and a decrease in the erosion resistance of the nozzle assembly." Another issue is that even at the fastest cutting rate they have, it would take over 16 secs to cut through a WTC Column, and during this time, they would have "to move the cutting torch along the circuderence" of the column. On top of all of this, over 7,000 people picked through the debris of the buildings, recovering items the survived the collaspes. Things such as police revolvers, maces canisters, an airline frequent flyer card and hundreds of other items were recovered. The techniques described above use cutting torches. Why were none found?

There is the whole, it was an idea and experiment thing too with them stating, and infact you quoting that while it "seems feasible", "no domestic experience has been acquired to date using thermite cutting in nuclear power engineering." i.e. no one had ever done it.

heres some stuff on nano thermites .Discovered just after 911
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/302999.pdf
Theres alot more information on ae911truths slide show 100-200 pages.
If you had bothered reading it ,
1,3 dimethypropane was found in large quantities to at the wtc
this is a main ingredient of SOLGEL

Well as I pointed out before, I don't want information processed through truther sites (okay I know I used one above, and it could be wrong, but I used it so you'd be less likely to argue the data) so as far as what Jones (or his parrots Gage and co on ae911) are concerned, I'd not interested in their babbling unless they can back it up, which they can't. The paper you link to is really quite interesting, especially the part that says:

Some of the thermal properties of these materials have been investigated and contrasted with those of conventional sized (mm-sized) thermites. Figure 6 contains the differential thermal analysis (DTA) traces for one energetic composites and one sol-gel nanostructured energetic. It is clear from these DTA traces that the thermal behavior of these materials is quite different. In the sol-gel xerogel Fe2O3/UFG Al nanocomposite there are thermal events at ~ 260, ~290, and ~590°C. We have determined that the two lower temperature events are related to a phase transition and crystallization of the amorphous Fe2O3 phase. The exotherm at ~590°C is the most interesting as it corresponds to the thermite reaction. This exotherm is very narrow and sharp, possibly indicating a very rapid reaction. Another point to be made here is that the thermite reaction takes place at a temperature markedly below the melt phase of bulk Al (Tm = 660°C).

Opps, their gels not only burn way faster, but also well below the temperature of normal thermites, so they give a shorter burn with less heat. Highly useful for many nanothermite applications where you want less heat and a faster burn, but entirely useless for CD.

Just one other thing.... Sol Gels are a catogory of gells called Solution Gels and as such no one material is a primary ingrediant for all solgels. 1,3 dimethypropane might be used in the production of some forms of sol-gels, but the particular ones in ther paper you listed were xerogel and areogel versions of RF or resorcinol formaldehyde.

Preparation of resorcinol/formaldehyde/ammonium perchlorate energetic nanocomposites. Using a sol-gel procedure first described by Pekala to make aerogels, a porous organic solid matrix was prepared by the polycondensation of resorcinol with formaldehyde (RF) using Na2CO3 as a catalyst.[14] Subsequent crystallization of an oxidizer, ammonium perchlorate (AP), within the pores of the gel matrix, completes the synthesis. The oxidizer was first dissolved in water, and then added to the reacting RF sol prior to gelation. Gelation of the RF sol occurred first. Crystallization of the AP was then induced by exchanging the liquid residing in the pores for a solvent in which the oxidizer was insoluble. The final step of removing the pore fluid was done by slow evaporation resulting in a dense solid.

Also 1,3 dimethypropane is a major product of burning plastics, such as computer parts and office products, though of course there weren't any of them in the WTC were there.

So shall we summarize....

1) Exotic Mixture Thermite. Yes it might be able to be made, but there is still no prove of it being made and used by any Government or Commercial group for anything. Properties are still to be shown as really existing as Jones and his parrots claim. That'd be Strike 1

2) Use of Thermite in Demolition. Experimentally could work, but never used. If it was used would require a torch rig that allowed it to wove around the columns. No such torches or rigs located in WTC debries. That'd be Strike 2

3) Standard Nano-Thermites are low-explosives so don't cut metal, and in gel form they burn faster and colder than standard non-nano thermites meaning they won't cut steel. That'd be Strike 3 I believe.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Hmm, just did a quick search on Google, which admittedly isn't like checking out the chemistry Journals I would do if I had access to a Science Library, but it seems that the dimethylpropane that is most commonly associated with Sol Gels is not 1,3-dimethylpropane anyway but rather 2,2-dimethylpropane-1,3-dioxy.

 

[leftysergeant]

All of this discussion of nano-thermite is pointless until someone explains how all that silicone got into the spherules. What thermite compound contains silicon?

I know a lot of building materials that contain silicon, so finding that in a sphereule is sort of dog-bites-mannish.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

First of all, can GIE explain why he's discussing this "1,3 dimethylpropane"? When Steven Jones came up with his fantasy, he brought up the presence of 1,3 diphenylpropane (1,3-DPP). "1,3-dimethylpropane" would be 2 methyl groups on either end of a propane chain (the "1" and "3" in question signifies which of the propane carbons the -CH₃ groups are attached to):



Note the methyl (CH₃) additions onto the "1" and "3" carbons of the propane chain. People who really know what they're talking about call this molecule pentane. That's basic organic chemistry that I was taught back in '89-'90.

So GIE is wrong in two different ways: He comes up with an unwieldy name for a mundane molecule, and he discusses a different molecule than Steven Jones did when he composed his thermite fantasy.

Secondly, Jones's source for the presence of 1,3-DPP is the EPA study which already attributed the presence of that compound to burning plastics.

One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done," Swartz said. He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/st...ategory=SEP11&BCCode=SEP11&newsdate=7/15/2006

Other readings discussing 1,3-DPP at Ground Zero:
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/esthag/2003/37/i16/abs/es030356l.html

http://cfpub.epa.gov/si/si_public_record_Report.cfm?dirEntryID=62021

From the ACS Publications link, an excerpt which supports the quote from the EPA representative above:

In addition, the compound 1,3-diphenylpropane- [ 1',1'-(1,3-propanediyl)bis-benzene] was observed, and to our knowledge, this species has not previously been reported from ambient sampling. It has been associated with polystyrene and other plastics, which are in abundance at the WTC site. These emissions lasted for at least 3 weeks (September 26-October 21, 2001) after the initial destruction of the WTC.

So there is nothing - nothing - suspicious or unexpected about the presence of that molecule in the concentrations is was detected at.

At any rate, this topic has been beaten to death in this forum already, and is a dead subject. Gravy's site and Mike W's also have articles refuting this nonsense. This is yet another case of a conspiracy peddler bringing up something who's presence is expected and tries to create suspicion from it. Thermite is a dead topic, and the approach of going through 1,3-DPP does not resurrect it at all.

GIE: When are you going to bring up something that hasn't been discussed to death already?

 

[ElMondoHummus]

As an aside: Did anyone know that Steven Jones is working for the Jet Propulsion Laboratories?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4792180/

It's not the same Steven Jones who came up with the thermite fantasy , but it's funny that this fellow came up in a search for "sol-gel". This Jones is responsible for the creation of "aerogel". Think that means that some folks will mistake this fellow for the BYU/Scholars For 9/11 Truth & Justice/thermite fantasy Jones??

 

[scott75]

All of this discussion of nano-thermite is pointless until someone explains how all that silicone got into the spherules. What thermite compound contains silicon?

I know a lot of building materials that contain silicon, so finding that in a sphereule is sort of dog-bites-mannish.

Perhaps you are answering your own question (as in, the silicon came from the building). GodIsEnergy, keep up the good work. This forum is mainly for official story believers, who seem to want you to -prove- anything that conflicts with the official story, instead of questioning the official story narrative. For a brief time, I was an official story believer, but after reading a book by Jim Marrs called "The War on Freedom", my views conclusively switched to the alternate story theories.

 

[TexasJack]

Perhaps you are answering your own question (as in, the silicon came from the building). GodIsEnergy, keep up the good work. This forum is mainly for official story believers, who seem to want you to -prove- anything that conflicts with the official story, instead of questioning the official story narrative. For a brief time, I was an official story believer, but after reading a book by Jim Marrs called "The War on Freedom", my views conclusively switched to the alternate story theories.

Jim Marrs? How's his UFO research coming along?

 

[twinstead]

Yea, god forbid we ask people to provide evidence, scott75. Do you have a problem with people wanting evidence for something? Don't you think that if you are going to accuse people of a crime of the magnitude that you folks claim the government is responsible for that some evidence might be warranted?

The reason we want you to PROVE this stuff is we think you are wrong. You can't just SAY something and expect us to believe you, not something like this. Actually, what we want is for you folks to stop whining on internet forums and actually DO SOMETHING, or convince SOMEBODY who actually can do something, some investigative body, some mainstream media ANYWHERE on Earth, SOMEBODY.

You think Jones' science is right on? Get support from other scientists. As long as real experts think he is a joke, he is a joke.

 

[A W Smith]

Perhaps you are answering your own question (as in, the silicon came from the building). GodIsEnergy, keep up the good work.

and what work is that? Inventing something that does not exist to shoehorn via plausibility into a conspiracy? and you have no problem with that failed logic?

This forum is mainly for official story believers, who seem to want you to -prove- anything that conflicts with the official story,

we believe a hypothesis based on evidence, facts, witnesses, data, and math. If that results in a hypothesis parallel to any "official story", So be it. The majority of the literate world believe that 2+2=4. so do I. and guess what? its the official story of math departments, economists, accounting firms and governments throughout the world. So because the government and media believe it. does that make 2+2=4 wrong? do you see the fallacy in your argument? You not only have a problem with a forum, you have a problem with billions of people of the world at large.

instead of questioning the official story narrative. For a brief time, I was an official story believer, but after reading a book by Jim Marrs called "The War on Freedom", my views conclusively switched to the alternate story theories.

So to get right to the point. At one time you had faith in facts and physical evidence. But then you read a "book" by a UFO nut that changed your world view. And now use that agenda to cloud your judgment. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

C'mon, folks, let's not fall for agitprop. It's clearly established that GIE is relying on disproven issues and carelessly misstating them at that (1,3-dimethylpropane...). The issue was settled long before it was brought up in this thread. Let's not worry about someone giving props to a person who can't even get the basic conspiracy argument correct, let alone understand the reality of the case. Scott75's post is devoid of substance anyway, and because of that couldn't support the conspiratorial fantasy. Just let it lay. Save your efforts for when they try to make a factual argument.

 

[Sunstealer]

Save your efforts for when they try to make a factual argument.

I don't think I'll live that long.

 

[GodisEnergy]

Never before has 1,3dimethylpropane been found in office fires before ,even ones which include computers .
Saying they were from computers was speculation .

'weve never observed it in any sampling weve ever done ' eric swartz epa

also note the molecule was in such large quantities.more than you would expect than plastic or computers.


the temperature of nano thermites is the same as other thermite.Its the same chemical chemical reaction !
What they are refering to is the temperature transition phase.


As for proof of the government using the exact type of thermite your insane ,you want them to tell the world they use the same thermite as the one found in the towers.
Its well known that advances in military technology including explosives arent realesed to the public FOR around 20 years
THE SIMPLE REASON THAT ENEMIES CAN LEARN FROM THERE NEW DEVELOPMENTS

We can only theorize how the thermite was placed and detonated.But what do you expect the government to leave cutter charges and det core knowingly for people to find.You must think the shadow government spooks are dumb like the normal government who messes everything up.
They obviously would have tested these cutter charges in the desert on some buildings for 'military purposes' untill they could find a way to leave ''no trace''

One theory is that the nano thermite was painted or sprayed like a foam, when they recently re did the fireproofing.
This wouldnt leave any evidence.
Steven jones has found semi reacted and unreacted paint which has the same chemical composition for thermite .And guess what when a laser was pointed at it it exploded violently much better than normal thermite did.

I know what your all going to say but guess what ,Paint manufacturers dont make Explosive paint