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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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I don't think it is. Changing a quote to make it look a person said something they did not is against the rules.


I am pretty sure Lothian is correct. This topic has come up in Forum Management a few times in the past and in general, as long as the intent of changing the post is made clear, and a link is provided to the original, it is allowed to stand. Here, watch.

In this case it was quite clear that paximperium is not passing the quote farts off as your verbatim words. It was made explicitly clear that your words had been improved.


See?
 
... Rulers wouldn't care if they were lied about. They would only care if they were written in a bad light. If they are made to look bad, they are likely to exact retribution. Wether it is true or false...

So are you saying the leaders of China and Russia (before the collapse), wouldn't care if Lenin and Chairman Mao were lied about 30 years after their rule as long as if it wasn't written in a bad light?

And are you saying the relatives and friends of Pontius Pilate (as well the current rulers) wouldn't care that Pilate was depicted as allowing a man he thought innocent to be crucified.
 
So are you saying the leaders of China and Russia (before the collapse), wouldn't care if Lenin and Chairman Mao were lied about 30 years after their rule as long as if it wasn't written in a bad light?
Lenin/Mao were saints who saved millions from the evil of the US of A and helped the working class people. They also cured cancer and made contact with the Andromedans and were wisked away to save another Galaxy from Jesus.

And are you saying the relatives and friends of Pontius Pilate (as well the current rulers) wouldn't care that Pilate was depicted as allowing a man he thought innocent to be crucified.
Why should they care what a bunch of pagans nobodies from a backward part of the Roman Empire said about their ancestor?
 
Still waiting DOC.
One single non-fallacious, non-logical fallacy post. Just One DOC. Come on, you can do it.

I've already responded to this. If you don't like my answer or disagree with it, fine. But to continue to ask the same question over and over is another violation of the rules -- Flooding the thread. The next time I will report it.
 
I've already responded to this. If you don't like my answer or disagree with it, fine. But to continue to ask the same question over and over is another violation of the rules -- Flooding the thread.
Actually you haven't. Your so-called answer was a fallacious pile of steaming BS and was torn apart by just about everyone.
It was not a valid answer and does not meet the terms of the challenge.

So do you withdraw your challenge? You will accept?:
All of DOCs arguments involved jumping from inane logical fallacies to the next logical fallacy.

The next time I will report it.
Ouch. Is that all you have left? Two threats of reporting within 1 hour.
 
So are you saying the leaders of China and Russia (before the collapse), wouldn't care if Lenin and Chairman Mao were lied about 30 years after their rule as long as if it wasn't written in a bad light?
.
Doc, your clear logical arguments are breath of fresh air. The succinct yet complete answers you consistently provide are an example to all.

Now, let us see how much you care about lies. The report button is the triangular one on the left of this post.
 
Actually, in some ways if I was an ancient despotic ruler, some things considered "bad" I would actually LIKE people to say. Nothing better for keeping control back then than fear (except possibly religion) so people thinking I'm liable to crush any dissent at the drop of a hat would not be bad, if you were of that frame of mind.
That was what I was thinking. Sorry for not making it clear.

To the ruler, anything that he'd want said about him is "good" and could easily be independant of the truth.
 
So are you saying the leaders of China and Russia (before the collapse), wouldn't care if Lenin and Chairman Mao were lied about 30 years after their rule as long as if it wasn't written in a bad light?

And are you saying the relatives and friends of Pontius Pilate (as well the current rulers) wouldn't care that Pilate was depicted as allowing a man he thought innocent to be crucified.
Yes. That's effectively what I'm saying.

Do you think the family of George washington Cares that people tell the cherry tree story?
 
So are you saying the leaders of China and Russia (before the collapse), wouldn't care if Lenin and Chairman Mao were lied about 30 years after their rule as long as if it wasn't written in a bad light?

And are you saying the relatives and friends of Pontius Pilate (as well the current rulers) wouldn't care that Pilate was depicted as allowing a man he thought innocent to be crucified.


You can play that game any way you like, but when it comes to the age and place under dispute -- 1st century Palestine/Asia Minor/Greece/Rome -- I would like to know how anyone in Pilate's family let alone Tiberius' family, etc. would ever come to know what was written by a small group of mostly women and slaves writing on the fringes of the Empire. Most communities long into the Christian era didn't even know about each of the gospels.
 
Yes. That's effectively what I'm saying.

Do you think the family of George washington Cares that people tell the cherry tree story?

But they might care if they wrote a story about him similar to what was written about Pontius Pilate. For example they wrote that Washington knew a soldier at Valley Forge was innocent of desertion, but he let him get hanged anyway for desertion as a favor to an officer.
 
How about this, Barack Obama is a powerful politician, very possible our next president.
Yet many writing exist falsely accusing him of a variety of ridiculous things, many of them contradictory.

If these writings manage to survive long after his death, does that make them true?
 
But they might care if they wrote a story about him similar to what was written about Pontius Pilate. For example they wrote that Washington knew a soldier at Valley Forge was innocent of desertion, but he let him get hanged anyway for desertion as a favor to an officer.
So?
9/11 conspricy nuts claim that Bush caused the towers to fall. Are you saying that these nut jobs are of concern to Bush?
 
You can play that game any way you like, but when it comes to the age and place under dispute -- 1st century Palestine/Asia Minor/Greece/Rome -- I would like to know how anyone in Pilate's family let alone Tiberius' family, etc. would ever come to know what was written by a small group of mostly women and slaves writing on the fringes of the Empire. Most communities long into the Christian era didn't even know about each of the gospels.

Well, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Timothy, James the Just, and the other apostles were not women or slaves.

But the rest of your argument helps explain why there is ten and not more non-Christian sources for Christ and Christianity within 150 years of Christ.
 
Still waiting DOC.
One single non-fallacious, non-logical fallacy post. Just One DOC. Come on, you can do it.

I've already responded to this. If you don't like my answer or disagree with it, fine. But to continue to ask the same question over and over is another violation of the rules -- Flooding the thread. The next time I will report it.
Actually you haven't. Your so-called answer was a fallacious pile of steaming BS and was torn apart by just about everyone.

So... we're still waiting:

One single non-fallacious, non-logical-fallacy post.

Please :)



...the rest of your argument helps explain why there is ten and not more non-Christian sources for Christ and Christianity within 150 years of Christ.
It might help to promote your woo in the eyes of the terminally deluded... yeah

However, for those with critical thinking skills superior to those of a stunned mullet, there exists the distinct possibility that your messiah is such a nobody in literary history because its all a load of bollocks
 
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Did Doc just argue that the small number of references is proof? Lack of proof is proof? Ok...I knew it would come back to that one soon enough.
 
But the rest of your argument helps explain why there is ten and not more non-Christian sources for Christ and Christianity within 150 years of Christ.
So?
What sources might that be and how do they support your claim that Jesus actually existed and rose from the dead?
Just one non-biblical one would be really really great.
 
Did Doc just argue that the small number of references is proof? Lack of proof is proof? Ok...I knew it would come back to that one soon enough.
Not proof, but evidence in support of the truth.:rolleyes:
Geisler has also said that the contradictions in the bible also provide evidence.

So, the evidence and lack of evidence support christianity.
Just as the details, lack of details, and contradictory details in the bible all provide evidence supporting christianity.

and finally, people dying for a cause further supports that christianity is true but not other causes because we know christianity is true.
 
Well, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Timothy, James the Just, and the other apostles were not women or slaves.

But the rest of your argument helps explain why there is ten and not more non-Christian sources for Christ and Christianity within 150 years of Christ.


You obviously just completely misunderstood my entire post. The gospels -- you know those books that you claim bash Pilate (and Pilate's family would likely have ensured that no one would have risked writing that if it were not true) -- were not known throughout the Empire and were particularly not known in upper society. In the early days of Christianity, when this would have mattered, according to you, not all the gospels were even known in all Christian communities. Even into the 4th century there were gospels that we do not use today that were regularly being used in worship services, and there appear to be pockets where only one or two of the gospels (or a conglomeration of the surviving four melded into one account) were used (at that time). In the very early years each of the gospels was a local production. They were not widely know until the middle of the second century at least. Same for Paul's letters. Why does Justin not mention Paul once? Possibly because Marcion elevated Paul to the highest level and he wanted to counter Marcion, but possibly also because he didn't know the letters.

There is simply no way for Pilate or anyone in his family to have ever encountered the information, so that side of the argument is a waste of time. Instead of harping on trivialities (as far as this discussion goes) -- like who was or who was not a woman or slave -- you could have done the humble bit and admitted -- OK, we can let that side of the argument go because it doesn't hold water.

There are zero non-Christian sources for Jesus or his life (aside from his execution). There are two Roman and one Jewish source (the Jewish source obviously having been tampered with (if you really want to discuss the Testimonium Flavium again we can go at it)) for the existence of Christianity (not Christ or anything about him aside from the fact that he was executed) between 100 and 130 CE IIRC. And, yes, the reason that there are so few sources mentioning Christianity is precisely because it was so far under the radar that it was considered merely a nuisance to those governing when something bad happened (there are more references to Heavan's Gate -- a much less important group historically -- in this thread alone than Christianity in Roman writings in its early years). Tacitus only mentions Christianity as Nero's excuse for burning Rome. Pliny, the Younger just wants instructions from Trajan about what to do with those wackos. Lucian, a Greek, also mentions briefly the Christians (in order to mock them) but no attestations about Jesus. The Talmud mentions the death of a Yeshua, but since this was a common name and we know of other Yeshuas who were executed around the time, no one can claim that this is a definite reference to the Jesus that you might want it to be. This is silly evidence. We all know that Christianity dates to this time -- the existence of a few tidbits that demonstrate that Christianity dates to this time helps how?

The Romans considered Christianity a group of loonies and a potentially dangerous cult for two (what they considered) good reasons.

That some of the earlier followers were not women or slaves matters how, exactly? I didn't say that it was a religion exclusively of women and slaves in the early years, but a religion largely of women and slaves -- as it spread into the Roman world. In its very earliest years it was a Jewish sect. We have good evidence of one of Christianity's earliest beliefs reflected in the writings of the Church fathers -- a 'heresy' known as the Ebionites -- that competed with Paul's interpretation of Jesus and which is reflected in the New Testament itself (see Acts and Galatians).
 
...However, for those with critical thinking skills superior to those of a stunned mullet, there exists the distinct possibility that your messiah is such a nobody in literary history because its all a load of bollocks

Well then Tiberius Caesar (the Roman Emperor during the time of Jesus) must be more of a nobody than Jesus because according to the book cited in post #1 and linked below (page 222) There were only 9 non-Christian sources that mention Tiberius Caesar whereas there were 10 that mentioned Jesus within 150 years of his life. If you include Christian sources, Jesus has 43 authors mentioning him while the Roman Emperor Tiberius has only 10.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PC...er&dq=norman+geisler+top+10+reasons#PPA222,M1
 
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