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Did deregulation cause the economic crisis?

I think actions to prevent regulation are the opposite of regulation and are therefore synomous with deregulation, but that's only relevant if you're concerned with the semantics of the issue.

There is a difference that is not merely semantic.

When trying to understand how we got into this mess, I was struck with a basic observation. Banks and other financial institutions were failing. That meant that some fairly smart people must have done some extremely stupid things. Obviously, government was asleep at the switch, which isn't surprising in the least, but the private sector, likewise, totally failed.

Preservation of the status quo, i.e. prevention of future regulation, wouldn't change the conditions and cause a market failure. I began to think that something within the marketplace itself must have changed, and that both government and financial institutions themselves failed to recognize the changing conditions, and react to them.
 
eta: I'm trying to find more details but it looks like the CRA regulations may have been butchered in 2004

Interesting.

One thing I'm finding, and I'm guessing you are as well, is that it is often difficult to track down exactly what happened. Regulations are so arcane sometimes that it is hard to find out what really did happen. Even legislation can be tricky to figure out.

In this case, though, it seems that deregulation of this sort would have ended the requirement that some banks make loans that they didn't want to make in the first place. It doesn't seem likely that this resulted in more bad loans.

Although, speculating, it could have had at least a slight effect. CRA based loans tended to be highly scrutinized and did not fail as often as the "free market" loans. Removing the demand that banks make responsible loans in the area they had branches may have opened the door for more irresponsible lending by the mortgage brokers offering the subprime junk. That is just speculation on my part.
 
Meadmaker - just a quick thank-you I've been asking for someone to support the "the liberals caused this by forcing the banks to make bad loans" every time it's made and so far no one has done so. However you have done a sterling job of going to the primary sources to show that the evidence is actually against that being true.
 
...snip...

Preservation of the status quo, i.e. prevention of future regulation, wouldn't change the conditions and cause a market failure. I began to think that something within the marketplace itself must have changed, and that both government and financial institutions themselves failed to recognize the changing conditions, and react to them.

I expressed this opinion (and it is purely that an opinion based on what I've read over the last few years). The changing conditions was the introduction of some rather clever mathematics by the backroom staff, they came up with fancy new ways of "assessing" risk and even better fancy ways of presenting those assessments, splitting up stuff that in the past no one thought about splitting up and so on. This all worked very well on paper and I bet the backroom staff understood what was really being traded, unfortunately these weren't really understood by the front men, and I say this was endemic from the CEO down to the interns, in other words they hadn't a clue what underlay these new schemes. Given this they simple failed to introduce new due diligence ideas alongside the new trading schemes*.




*I probably should use "financial instruments" but I like the unspun plain old "schemes".
 
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The changing conditions was the introduction of some rather clever mathematics by the backroom staff, they came up with fancy new ways of "assessing" risk and even better fancy ways of presenting those assessments, splitting up stuff that in the past no one thought about splitting up and so on.
This is one of several common assumptions, but I have seen no evidence of it, and am reasonably close to the issue, meaning I have access and long-standing interaction with these "backroom staff" you mention. I think "risk models" are pretty much the same ones that have always been used. These risk models break down when you need them most (such as in the presence of systemic externalities to the risk assumptions: evaporating liquidity, correlated mistakes). A lot of people know that risk assessments are no good in these circumstances, but no "old" risk model in the past would have been any good either. Despite widespread knowledge that standard risk assessments do not protect you in a crisis, they still get used because crises are not normally predicted (or predictable) by definition. In short, there really isn't anything that was done differently on the risk assessment/presentation side.

This all worked very well on paper and I bet the backroom staff understood what was really being traded, unfortunately these weren't really understood by the front men, and I say this was endemic from the CEO down to the interns, in other words they hadn't a clue what underlay these new schemes. Given this they simple failed to introduce new due diligence ideas alongside the new trading schemes.
This statement seems to be the other one I have heard repeated most often which is "there was not enough transparency in this stuff; only the boffins could understand it", and again I have not seen the evidence of it. The mechanics of the possible financial outcomes of leveraged securitised debt positions are not, actually rocket science at all, and I think the front people know/knew what they are (I have not heard Dick Fuld or anyone claim: "I did not know what the risks were", which of course would be unforgivable). But in particular I think it is not the case that the pricing of many such securities melted down because "nobody understands them". I think it is more accurate to say that this happened because everyone did (more or less) understand but they all bet wrong in a correlated fashion, which in itself rendered "risk models" invalid. In this respect the primary thing that was not apprehended was the extent to which everyone had a leveraged bet the same way round.

This is a common feature of many boom-crisis episodes, and I tend to believe that it is also its own reason why one sees more boom-crisis episodes than should be the case on the assessment of "risk models"

This is why I agree with those who suggest that by far the most important policy fix is one that regulates leverage, above anything that calls for still-fancier risk assessment and/or greater transparency. I think that both of the latter largely bark up the wrong tree. (Of course right now nobody needs a regulation against "excess" leverage--but that will not be true for ever)
 
Meadmaker - just a quick thank-you I've been asking for someone to support the "the liberals caused this by forcing the banks to make bad loans" every time it's made and so far no one has done so. However you have done a sterling job of going to the primary sources to show that the evidence is actually against that being true.
You keep claiming this, even after I pointed you to the actual regulations on numerous occasions and also data on where the foreclosures are actually occuring.

Meadmaker has done nothing but make unsupported claims (such as "CRA based loans tended to be highly scrutinized and did not fail as often as the "free market" loans", well if he says so it must be true!), not a single link to a study which shows that CRA loans default less than other loans, and in fact I have (on other threads) proven that it is in fact areas covered under the CRA that have the highest default and foreclosure rates.

But I'm sure you'll continue to ignore all the evidence and pretend it's actually mostly middle and upper income people defaulting on all these loans.
 
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This is one of several common assumptions, but I have seen no evidence of it, and am reasonably close to the issue, meaning I have access and long-standing interaction with these "backroom staff" you mention.

...snip...

As I said it is an opinion based on what I have read and heard over the last few years, I certainly can't point to evidence.

This statement seems to be the other one I have heard repeated most often which is "there was not enough transparency in this stuff; only the boffins could understand it",

...snip...

The transparency was there, that wasn't the problem, the problem is that the decisions makers did not understand what they were playing with (as a gross generalisation of course). And this I base on my personal experiences with dealing with "financiers" and also having a partner that works for a UK investment bank.

...snip...

But in particular I think it is not the case that the pricing of many such securities melted down because "nobody understands them". I think it is more accurate to say that this happened because everyone did (more or less) understand but they all bet wrong in a correlated fashion, which in itself rendered "risk models" invalid. In this respect the primary thing that was not apprehended was the extent to which everyone had a leveraged bet the same way round.

This is a common feature of many boom-crisis episodes, and I tend to believe that it is also its own reason why one sees more boom-crisis episodes than should be the case on the assessment of "risk models"

...snip...

A good thing is that we should, in a few years time, know whether this was the case.

Regrading the "pricing" point - I also remember the "dot.com" bubble and at the time was actively involved with flotations and evaluations and I know for a fact that the vast majority of people making the decisions didn't have a clue - so I'll hold back from letting go of my opinion until we have more information. (And I'm not saying these were the same thing but it just cemented my view of the general ability of those in the financial arena!)

...snip...

This is why I agree with those who suggest that by far the most important policy fix is one that regulates leverage, above anything that calls for still-fancier risk assessment and/or greater transparency. I think that both of the latter largely bark up the wrong tree. (Of course right now nobody needs a regulation against "excess" leverage--but that will not be true for ever)

I don't know if it's the "most important policy fix" but I agree that it is an important area that needs to be looked into.
 
You keep claiming this, even after I pointed you to the actual regulations on numerous occasions and also data on where the foreclosures are actually occuring....snip...

Despite being asked several times to provide the evidence for your claim that the banks were forced to make bad loans you still have not done so in this or any other thread I have seen you make the claim in.
 
CRA based loans tended to be highly scrutinized and did not fail as often as the "free market" loans.
1. Define "CRA based loans".
2. Define "free market" loans.
3. Cite the relevant studies.
 
Despite being asked several times to provide the evidence for your claim that the banks were forced to make bad loans you still have not done so in this or any other thread I have seen you make the claim in.
Repeating a lie doesn't make it true Darat.

Am I really going to have to walk you through it all again, so you can ignore it until someone starts another identical thread (which this one is) and you chime in with the same old lie again?
 
Repeating a lie doesn't make it true Darat.

Am I really going to have to walk you through it all again, so you can ignore it until someone starts another identical thread (which this one is) and you chime in with the same old lie again?
I haven't seen you or anyone else provide any evidence for "forced to make bad loans" either. I consider that claim to be abandoned by all those who are not in some kind of denial.
 
That's a strawman as no country has, nor wants, completely unregulated markets.

The whole what system? That's what motivates paper-clip manufacturers too. Are you going to try to argue that investment bankers have a monopoly on self-interest, greed and (now) fear?

What is actually providing this "skew to short term performance"? Do you think that society needs to legislate to compel a longer time horizon on earnings per share? By the way this is a sincere question. Because if a deregulated incentive structure is what leads to the wrong (too short) time horizon--then it is, in fact, human nature that is at work in this race-to-the-short-term isn't it? So it would seem that this argument would lead to regulations to protect people from themselves.

Yes. Specifically this is because excessive leverage that goes wrong throws off big negative external costs, not unlike pollution.

You omit the members of the public who ran down their own personal saving rate too low and leveraged up their own balance sheet too high and screwed up their own risk management too. Nobody compelled them to do this. They can't even claim competitive business pressure as an "excuse".

Related to your point, I think it is instructive that there is a general absence of lawsuits in any parts of the chain that you just outlined. Is it not extraordinary that nobody can actually claim that they were mis-sold to or defrauded and that nobody was guilty of negligence under any law? The thing is, lengthy prospectuses for CDO and other credit derivative structures were drawn up, and ratings of issues were comprehensively couched with caveats, just like home buyers were warned that their interest rate would re-set to a level that could be a lot higher and that their home was at risk if they could not keep up repayments on a mortgage or other loan secured on it. . . .

So the problem was that nobody listened to or read the stuff. Because that is what everyone else was doing.

Whhy are you singling those ones out? By now it should be obvious that other countries' systems must be at least as deficient. They (and some posters here not too long ago) simply had a greater propensity to engage in wilful denial for a bit longer than the Americans.

That is a legitimate question yes--though it shifts the emphasis off your opening sentence a bit. "Lack of the right kind of smart regulation", rather than "deregulation" would be the cause then, wouldn't it?

Yes.

I don't really disagree with anything you've written, so maybe I didn't express myself especially well :)

My stance shifted a little as I was writing my post, as I thought a bit more about it..... perhaps "deregulation" could be a little misleading, "lack of the correct regulation" would be more appropriate. With regards to why I singled out Britain and America, well, I don't know much about any other countries. Though at the moment it does seem to be limited to Europe and America. Some European countries like Spain had more stringent leverage ratios - 15;1 for their banks, which I suppose is one of the reasons why santander is hoovering up half of our high street banks....... but I don't know how other Eurozone economies regulated their financial systems.


And with regards to whether or not we need regulations to protect people from themselves, I don't think that is an especially bad idea ;)
 
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Repeating a lie doesn't make it true Darat.

It isn't a lie - you have still not provided any evidence that shows that banks were forced to make bad loans.

Am I really going to have to walk you through it all again, so you can ignore it until someone starts another identical thread (which this one is) and you chime in with the same old lie again?

You seem to have got this a bit back to front, it's your claim that banks were forced to make bad loans not mine so it's up to you to provide evidence to show that they were in fact forced to make bad loans.

Until you do your claim is unsubstantiated and is at best just your opinion.
 
Before I begin the following answers, I want to say in advance that the terms below are in quote marks, as they were in my original. In my original, I added the quote marks as a way to indicate that these were not precisely defined terms, but might be used in common parlance without rigorous definition.

1. Define "CRA based loans".

A CRA based loan is one made by a lending institution monitored for compliance with the CRA.

2. Define "free market" loans.

A free market loan is one made by a lender seeking a profit, but not motivated by a need to comply with the CRA, or as part of some comparable government initiative.


3. Cite the relevant studies.

I'm not inclined to do a bunch of googling to look up the sources I found and/or cited in other threads, but if you are curious, I have found that Janet Yellen is a good source for information. Here's a quote from the first hit I found when I put in "Yellen" and "subprime" into google. It's from a liberal opinion piece, but it quotes Yellen.

Most important, the lenders subject to CRA have engaged in less, not more, of the most dangerous lending. Janet Yellen, president of the San Francisco Federal Reserve, offers the killer statistic: Independent mortgage companies, which are not covered by CRA, made high-priced loans at more than twice the rate of the banks and thrifts. With this in mind, Yellen specifically rejects the "tendency to conflate the current problems in the sub-prime market with CRA-motivated lending.? CRA, Yellen says, "has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households."

I have read the speech from which the quotes are taken, and they are not out of context. I'm confident Ms. Yellen did her research before making the statements.

Of course, a simple quote is hardly proof of my case. I think the only responsible thing for you to do would be to do independent investigation to determine how accurate my claims may be.
 
I think "risk models" are pretty much the same ones that have always been used. .... In short, there really isn't anything that was done differently on the risk assessment/presentation side.

Well that's the problem, isn't it? Circumstances changed. The risk models didn't.


The more I thought about it I think the basic assumption that changed had to do with how mortgage risk is assessed, and in general how mortgages were made.

I think the assumption, until recently, was that loan originators assessed the risk involved in loaning money to a client, and that human assessment was at least part of that process. Loan originators didn't make bad loans very often, so the securities based on those mortgages were pretty good.

During this decade, it became a lot easier to loan money. You didn't need a brick and mortar office. You could use a computer model on the internet and approve a loan right away. This created a lot of competition for banks who actually took their loan responsibilities more seriously. Meanwhile, the secondary market didn't look back at the change that was happening. They just kept assuming that mortgages were scrutinized at origination, and were therefore low risk.

No one really checked their assumptions, but relied on the old models.
 
From the Garp article posted above:

The rule also permits the inclusion of subordinated debt in allowable capital. The SEC permitted this because subordinated debt “has many of the characteristics of capital.” I find this one particularly amazing; apparently, it doesn’t actually have to be capital. For everyone else except the broker-dealers, subordinated debt is leverage. The commission considered but stopped short of allowing the brokerdealers to count all long-term debt as capital.

Wow. That's kind of hard to believe. Maybe it's just me, but I can't see how subordinated debt can possibly be construed as capital!!
 
From a political perspective (for the UK and American) pertinent questions are:

1. How did the tripartite regulatory system set up by Gordon Brown affect the ability to regulate the finance sector?

2. Would the previous system, or indeed would the Conservatives have regulated the finance sector any differently?

3. Would the Democrats have regulated the American finance system any differently to the Republicans?

I would be inclined to suggest that whichever party was in power either side of the Atlantic would have presided over the same laissez-faire approach to regulation. I certainly can't imagine the Conservatives being less business friendly than Labour.
 
Well I am no expert on this kind of stuff, Meadmaker, but I think part of the problem is that you are not going far enough back. One of the things I have learned is that when you change any system the people who are running it continue to do things in the old way for some considerable time: and when they change they effects take a long time to work through as well.

One of the things which I believe is relevant is the deregulation of credit controls and that began in earnest in the 1980's. At that time many of the rules which had been imposed following the great depression were revoked: notably the Depository Institution Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980, the Depository Institution Act of 1982, and the Interstate Banking and Branching Efficiency Act of 1994, in the US. In the UK one of the changes made at that time was a removal of consumer credit control and section 2 of this link
http://www.eui.eu/FinConsEU/ResearchActivities/CreditConsMacro2005/Papers/Muellbauer.pdf
is quite helpful in this regard. I do not know if similar steps were taken in the US because the regulatory regimes were very different. There is an interesting comparison here
http://www-cfap.jbs.cam.ac.uk/publications/files/WP17 - Alexander1.pdf
though it may be rather slanted in its support for the FSA.

Don't know if this is the kind of thing you are looking for but it seems to me that there is no point in searching for the deregulatory impact so late in the day: the damage was done in the monetarist period and for me this seems to be part of the problem: we think too short term
 
From the Garp article posted above:



Wow. That's kind of hard to believe. Maybe it's just me, but I can't see how subordinated debt can possibly be construed as capital!!

You aren't the only one, but usually when I read something that seems so bizarre as to defy comprehension, like allowing subordinated debt to be called capital, I suspect that there must be something I have not understood. At least, I hope so, because at first glance it seems unfathomably stupid. However, since I had to look up "subordinated debt" to find out what it meant, I suspect that it is indeed lack of comprehension.

Regardless, I stumbled upon discussions of subordinated debt and "market discipline", and it strikes me as the most cockamamie, ridiculous program that words printable in this forum cannot be used to convey my thoughts on the subject. I'm currently trying to work my way through this paper:

http://www.ofheo.gov/media/WorkingPapers/workingpaper073.pdf

Warning. Not for the faint of heart. No sound bite material here.
 
I'm obviously in over my head, and google is not sufficient to help me out.

Can someone explain why subordinated debt is capital?

I'll give my understanding of what it means to issue subordinated debt, and perhaps someone can explain to me where capital comes out of it.

So, I own a bank. In order to get money to operate the bank, I issued 200 million dollars in bonds. Later, I issued 100 million dollars in other bonds which, in the event I was in financial trouble or was liquidated, would not be paid until after the first 200 million dollars was paid. That second 100 million dollars is "subordinated debt".

So, where's the capital? It seems to me like at the end of this process, I owe 300 million dollars. What are we calling capital in all this?
 

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