Psychic Samurai applies for MDC...apparently...

[Czarcasm]

What specifically will show up on the recording devices? Nonspecified anomalies will not be an acceptable result because these show up on recordings all the time.
Will there be recognizable voices?
Will they say something specific, and if so, what?
Will they answer questions?

 

[petre]

I am currently working on a FEEDBACK LOOP using my Mac Notebook, a Mirror, and the notebooks built in camera. If all goes well, I'll be able to catch images and sounds using the laptop! If others have had success with this method please chime in. I've never heard of anyone trying this before.
I may need to introduce some form of Carrier Wave.

Does this mean you have now entered a testing phase to determine what limits your paranormal entities might have? I am always encouraged by applicants willing to test themselves beforehand. If this is your intent, and you're not going to work further towards a protocol until you have more information (which would be a productive focus I believe), it would probably be best to suspend discussion of your challenge now to focus on that.

Feel free to create a post (in the appropriate forum, General Skepticism and The Paranormal seems good) to give us all the results of your self-testing (even results that don't indicate paranormal activity, as those are helpful in identifying limitations of the paranormal that could sink a test's chance of success).

If you're planning to continue actively developing a protocol for the challenge now, perhaps you can address some of the suggestions in the last page or two? (not just from me, Jackalgirl and others have some useful points as well)

You've made a number of posts now that seem to have wandered from the purpose of taking this challenge. I'm fearful posters here will see a (delayed) success in the earlier plan of repeating "Please state your paranormal claim" in post after post, and will now begin repeated posts of "Please address some of the points related to your protocol".

 

[RoboTimbo]

Yes, that is a claim that we can accept. It's your claim.. any double-meaning or whatever would be your own.

So, if that's your claim please state it clearly and send it to me via e-mail.

Jeff, can you share the exact wording of The Professor's claim?

Thanks

 

[Azrael 5]

Maybe Jeff Wagg can intervene and consider wether The Prof is ever going to come up with a protocol or even some previous demonstration of paranormal abilities(weak or strong).I can't imagine JREF allowing this to continue for 12 months.

Then again I would assume it be self evident very soon wether Prof can complete a protocol.

 

[LongFuzzy]

Way back in this tread Mr. Koenig posted some links to the equipment he wanted to use.The first link was to a youtube video of a Radio Shack 4 band radio (AM/FM/TV/Weather) which had been modified to continually scan the selected band, while outputting the audio. Mostly static was heard, but occasionally a snippet of a word could be heard. That snippet was deamed to be paranormal in origin (EVP). Now, Mr. Koenig has introduced another idea of a video feed back loop. This is kind of like standing between two parallel mirrors and seeing the reflections in each mirror getting smaller and smaller to infinity. He wants to replace one mirror with a laptop with a camera. I think there is a famouse painting (Rockwell?) of a painter painting a painter painting a painter... It seems Mr. Koenig is still trying to figure out how to prove his claim. He does not appear to be ready to discuss a protocol. I think his application may have been a bit premature.

-LF

 

[Biscuit]

Here is what I will email.

"On October 31st at The Devils Chair in Lake Helen Florida, I, David Koenig, will cause voices to appear audibly (Or visibly) on previously blank magnetic recording tapes by Paranormal, or Scientifically Unexplainable, means."

How's that?

This is apparently the claim he mailed to Jeff. He and Jeff may have changed some things but I believe this is all the rest of have to go on.

TP you need to submit your own rough draft of a protocol if we are to help you. There are just to many unanswered questions at this point.

 

[alfaniner]

Is there an objective way to determine if voices appear on a tape? I'm sure many people have heard electronic voice phenomena before, where a white-noise generator is on and it appears that there are (indistinct) voices on it. Isn't there some kind of analyzer that can show if it is a voice on a recording?

 

[The Professor]

I'm assuming that your laptop has an iSight camera, yes?

There's a standard Mac application called iMovie -- at least, it came pre-installed on my MacBook Pro. Don't know if you have that on your laptop, but it is pretty basic Mac software (I believe it's part of the iLife suite, which is probably worth purchasing if you don't have it already).

Anyway, if you do, there's a little icon along the bottom of the screen that looks like the profile of a stylized movie camera. Click on that and you get a pop-up menu. Select "Built-in iSight". The picture area of the screen will go "live" and a button will appear that says "Record with iSight". Click on that. It will record the clip. Click on the "Record with iSight" button again to stop it. I recommend you do this with the mic turned all the way up -- although for your purposes, I would recommend buying a mic that you can plug into the laptop, since the built in mic does not have the best gain in the world and is probably insufficient for your needs.

You shouldn't need a feedback loop or a carrier wave. The Mac does this all on its own and is so frequently used for this type of project that it is standard software.

However, that's just a recording method and has absolutely nothing to do with the testability of a paranormal event. Also, your claim involves AUDIO PHENOMENA, so unless this is MORE TESTABLE than your AUDIO CLAIM, I would suggest that you are getting side-tracked (again). Unless, of course, you're also focused on the laptop's audio recording capabilities.

I ask again:

What are the "paranormal entities" capable of doing, beside simply answering questions? Are they:

a) capable of seeing into opaque containers into which normal human beings cannot see?
b) capable of going into sound- and vibration-proofed containers?
c) able to effect completely implausible changes to recording media (CDs, tapes, etc.,) that are not present within a recording device (i.e., still in their wrappers), where "implausible" means, for example, making an identifiable voice speaking identifiable English words appear on the media?
d) capable of otherwise affecting objects physically, such as moving or lifting objects?*
e) capable of causing a clearly defined and marked change in the temperature of a container of liquid, such as water?*

In short, are they capable of doing anything else beyond simply providing audible responses to questions? Please provide a list of the things that the "entities" can do.

If you are not sure, please go ask them, then let us know. This is critical for the design of the protocol.

*If they are capable of doing either of these last two things, it would change your claim. But it should also be relatively easy to test. The important thing, though, is that you have to know what they can and are willing to do in order to even start thinking about a protocol.

Also, once again, if you would be so kind as to answer my question as to whether you're actually trying to set up JREF and the Forum for an "expose" (with the slanty-thing over the e) rather than actually trying to pursue the MDC, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

I will answer your questions to the best of my abilities.

A) Only under specific conditions involving the motivation of the "Spirit" and the proper distribution of Kosher Salt or a circle of Believers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE45QHIUfiM

B) That's a question that I will be researching.

C) Doubt it.

D) I've never seen Poltergeist activity although I've heard it is possible.

E) Never tried it. How does that have anything to do with this claim?

Why would you be asking questions that have little to do with voices "Appearing" on a recording?


As far as exposing any wrong doings by the JREF, is that something that is forbidden?

 

[Loss Leader]

I am currently working on a FEEDBACK LOOP using my Mac Notebook, a Mirror, and the notebooks built in camera. If all goes well, I'll be able to catch images and sounds using the laptop! If others have had success with this method please chime in. I've never heard of anyone trying this before.
I may need to introduce some form of Carrier Wave.

Why so complicated, Professor?

I mean that.

Why do you need all of that complicated electronic hardware. Why do you need such a bizarre set0up? Voices will either appear or they will not. Why do the voices (or images) need loads of false and meaningless data in order for them to manifest themselves? Why can't the manifect themselves amid no data whatsoever?

Think of it in another way: People suspect you of cheating. The simpler the set-up, the harder people will think it is to cheat. So you need the simplest set-up possible. A complicated rig of audio and video feedback is exactly the thing people would expect a magician to do. There's so much more room to hide the elephant that way.

Think of it in yet a third way: the more complicated your set-up, the less likely the JREF will ever agree to it. So, if you want to be able to tell the world how the JREF backed out of your test (or you want to actually be tested), it is in your interests to make your protocol as simple as possible.

A mirror for feedback ... honestly, now.

 

[The Professor]

Does this mean you have now entered a testing phase to determine what limits your paranormal entities might have? I am always encouraged by applicants willing to test themselves beforehand. If this is your intent, and you're not going to work further towards a protocol until you have more information (which would be a productive focus I believe), it would probably be best to suspend discussion of your challenge now to focus on that.

Feel free to create a post (in the appropriate forum, General Skepticism and The Paranormal seems good) to give us all the results of your self-testing (even results that don't indicate paranormal activity, as those are helpful in identifying limitations of the paranormal that could sink a test's chance of success).

If you're planning to continue actively developing a protocol for the challenge now, perhaps you can address some of the suggestions in the last page or two? (not just from me, Jackalgirl and others have some useful points as well)

You've made a number of posts now that seem to have wandered from the purpose of taking this challenge. I'm fearful posters here will see a (delayed) success in the earlier plan of repeating "Please state your paranormal claim" in post after post, and will now begin repeated posts of "Please address some of the points related to your protocol".

You are 100% correct. The SNARKIES will always say

You won't apply...
You haven't applied....
Prove you've applied ....
You have no media presence....
You have no academic ....
You have no Claim .....
Prove you have one....
You have no protocol ...

IT NEVER ENDS!!!!!

But they are very easy to spot.
Some have dropped out do to the obviousness of their attempts to delay or destroy my application and my attempt to take the test.
Others continue in their efforts to foul the waters.

There are many things that can be done simultaneously with the protocol and the current testing as they go hand in hand, so I will not request an additional thread. I will attempt to answer honest enquiries while continuing with this protocol. I have answered JG's even though I feel it is off topic a bit. I do understand her approach though, and I appreciate her efforts.

Here is the claim as sent to Jeff Wagg ....

On October 31st at The Devils Chair in Lake Helen Florida, I, David Koenig, will cause voices to appear audibly (Or visibly) on previously blank magnetic recording tapes by Paranormal, or Scientifically Unexplainable, means."

This seems to be a good starting point! ( I hope to include digital media but it is not necessary)

 

[gdnp]

I think it was a mistake to waive the portion of the challenge where the claimant demonstrates his ability to the press or academic researchers. This requirement forces the claimant to come up with a specific claim and protocol, and thus the JREF only needs to determine how it can be tested. Thus my (and other people's) suggestions that the Professor do a dry run without controls where he demonstrates the ability of his entities to make something appear on a tape or video. As far as I know he has not even claimed to have done so in the past. He seems to be trying to figure it out as he goes along.

We can suggest protocols until we are blue in the face. Well, until our fingers fall off. We need to know what these entities can do. So once again:

Professor:
1) have you ever successfully recorded these or similar paranormal entities before?
2) What paranormal things can they do? Read minds? foresee the future? see inside closed containers? Locate missing persons? Answer questions? Communicate with dead people?

 

[Jackalgirl]

I will answer your questions to the best of my abilities.

Thank you!

a) capable of seeing into opaque containers into which normal human beings cannot see?

A) Only under specific conditions involving the motivation of the "Spirit" and the proper distribution of Kosher Salt or a circle of Believers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE45QHIUfiM

So they can see into opaque containers? Terrific. This will make coming up with a protocol WAY much easier.

Now, you say "the proper distribution of Kosher Salt or a circle of Believers." Can you elaborate here? Are you talking about, say, a circle of Kosher salt? If not, would you please describe briefly what the proper distribution is? A scattering? A shape? Etc. Does it matter who prepares the opaque container(s)? For example, is it required that the container(s) be prepared by believers?

I highlighted the word "or". I just want to confirm that either salt OR believers will do.

b) capable of going into sound- and vibration-proofed containers?

B) That's a question that I will be researching.

Excellent. Please let us know how that turns out -- I know you're already aware of the protocol suggestions that involve this, so it would be good to know if it'll work.

c) able to effect completely implausible changes to recording media (CDs, tapes, etc.,) that are not present within a recording device (i.e., still in their wrappers), where "implausible" means, for example, making an identifiable voice speaking identifiable English words appear on the media?

C) Doubt it.

Ah, but do you know? I think it'd be a good thing to try. It'd be yet another option available to you to bring to the table, if it were possible.

d) capable of otherwise affecting objects physically, such as moving or lifting objects?*

D) I've never seen Poltergeist activity although I've heard it is possible.

e) capable of causing a clearly defined and marked change in the temperature of a container of liquid, such as water?*

) Never tried it. How does that have anything to do with this claim?

Why would you be asking questions that have little to do with voices "Appearing" on a recording?

I believe I explained that in my footnote. However, I may have been less than clear, so I will go over it again: if, for whatever reason, the "spirits" either can't get into an opaque container or otherwise your requirements for them to be able to do so compromises any control for trickery, having some other option would be nice. You would have to change your claim (so it should be a last resort), but if the "spirits" can move stuff, or change the temperature of a liquid (for example), that's another possible thing to test for.

)

As far as exposing any wrong doings by the JREF, is that something that is forbidden?

Of course not. The problem is that you are convinced that the JREF is nefarious, unfair, etc etc etc and you are out to prove that at all costs. If Jeff, et co, handle you within the boundaries of the rules of the Challenge, even if your file is closed because you and he are not able to agree on a protocol, will you change your mind and conclude that you were handled fairly? In short, is your belief that the JREF is just absolutely awful falsifiable in any way?

I suspect that the answer is "no". No matter what happens, you will twist it into so-called proof of what you believe -- and have been saying -- all along. In fact, I strongly suspect that you will sabotage the whole process by refusing to cooperate in designing a objective, properly controlled test. You will get involved in anything that allows you to snipe at the JREF, at James Randi, or at the membership here -- anything but actually work on a real, objective, properly controlled test.

You could prove me wrong, of course. You could start by actually working on the protocol. I suspect that you will ignore all of my protocol-related comments and argue with me about what I have said about your motivations but you know what? I won't believe you until you show me. Show me that you are serious about the protocol by only working on the protocol until it is done. I dare you.

 

[steenkh]

As far as I know he has not even claimed to have done so in the past. He seems to be trying to figure it out as he goes along.

The media presence has not illustrated the specific claim, but the media have accepted that he can do paranormal stuff. It is this fact that makes it worthwhile for the JREF to let him have a go at the challenge, even if he has never demonstrated his actual claim.

1) have you ever successfully recorded these or similar paranormal entities before?

Few applicants have tested themselves before. This has never been a requirement.

2) What paranormal things can they do? Read minds? foresee the future? see inside closed containers? Locate missing persons? Answer questions? Communicate with dead people?[/QUOTE]
The claim clearly states that the voices appear paranormally. Although TP hints at all sorts of other things, this is his claim, and this should be what is tested. I agree that other paranormal characteristics would be easier to test, but the claim would have to be changed if the protocol should test for this. Currently, TP is investigating if his voices can appear inside a sound-proof box, and when he finds that they cannot, he will be hard-pressed to find another method that eliminated hidden loudspeakers.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I think it was a mistake to waive the portion of the challenge where the claimant demonstrates his ability to the press or academic researchers.

I agree. I've always liked the IIG approach much better: give us a demonstration of your ability, then we can work on a protocol for you to do the same thing under controlled conditions. The demonstration itself defines the claim and much of the protocol. So you get less bickering over terms and definitions and everyone knows exactly what they are dealing with. It helps both sides.

Perhaps TP could provide a short video of the ability he wishes to perform for the challenge! Nothing “official”. Just something that demonstrates his claim as he wishes to demonstrate it. October 31 is coming up fast. It seems that would be a perfect time to record a demonstration. Or better yet, make a video now for us to see so that we can help make the October 31 demonstration really tight and get Randi quaking in his boots about loosing the million!!!!

That would be fun!!!!

You up to it, Professor?

 

[fromdownunder]

Some have dropped out do to the obviousness of their attempts to delay or destroy my application and my attempt to take the test.

As I asked you on another thread, how can members of this forum possibly disrupt your attempt at the $!M challenge? You do not have to engage anybody here in any way, shape or form. You do no even need to post or be on this or any forum. How the protocol is reached is completely between you and the JREF, and the members of this Forum have zero, nada, zilch, nothing to do with your negotiations with Jeff Wagg. Oddly enough, you did not respond to this.

I also pointed out that you could put those whom you consider "snarky" (or whatever) on ignore, so that you could focus on the challenge. And yet you continue to respond only to the "snark", while at the same time explaining how you will avoi future "snark", ignore the suggested protocols completely, and then attempt to derail the points, deliberately be obtuse with those points, or be unnecesarilly "snarky" with those who are trying to ask exactly what you can do SO THAT THEY CAN ASSIST in developing a testable protocol.

I wonder why this is? And I don't expect a coherent answer.

Norm

 

[eirik]

In my opinion, this thread must die. Everybody should stop posting.

Mod: This is IMO on topic, and I will explain why:

This whole thing is about feeding the unelegant professors ego, who is clearly not interested in negotiating and producing a protocol. All I see from him is is insulting and ridiculing remarks towards the moderators, the JREF forum, the well intended forum members as jackalgirl and others, the JREF and James Randi. I know that this only reflects on Dave Koenig, but somewhere a line should be drawn, and that should be now.

So far we've only established that

1. There will be voices
2. They are paranormal

To this one can reply:

1. OK
2. Brreeep

(is this where you can use the term begging the question ?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)

This is ridiculous.

 

[The Professor]

Thank you!



So they can see into opaque containers? Terrific. This will make coming up with a protocol WAY much easier.

Now, you say "the proper distribution of Kosher Salt or a circle of Believers." Can you elaborate here? Are you talking about, say, a circle of Kosher salt? If not, would you please describe briefly what the proper distribution is? A scattering? A shape? Etc. Does it matter who prepares the opaque container(s)? For example, is it required that the container(s) be prepared by believers?

I highlighted the word "or". I just want to confirm that either salt OR believers will do.



Excellent. Please let us know how that turns out -- I know you're already aware of the protocol suggestions that involve this, so it would be good to know if it'll work.



Ah, but do you know? I think it'd be a good thing to try. It'd be yet another option available to you to bring to the table, if it were possible.




I believe I explained that in my footnote. However, I may have been less than clear, so I will go over it again: if, for whatever reason, the "spirits" either can't get into an opaque container or otherwise your requirements for them to be able to do so compromises any control for trickery, having some other option would be nice. You would have to change your claim (so it should be a last resort), but if the "spirits" can move stuff, or change the temperature of a liquid (for example), that's another possible thing to test for.



Of course not. The problem is that you are convinced that the JREF is nefarious, unfair, etc etc etc and you are out to prove that at all costs. If Jeff, et co, handle you within the boundaries of the rules of the Challenge, even if your file is closed because you and he are not able to agree on a protocol, will you change your mind and conclude that you were handled fairly? In short, is your belief that the JREF is just absolutely awful falsifiable in any way?

I suspect that the answer is "no". No matter what happens, you will twist it into so-called proof of what you believe -- and have been saying -- all along. In fact, I strongly suspect that you will sabotage the whole process by refusing to cooperate in designing a objective, properly controlled test. You will get involved in anything that allows you to snipe at the JREF, at James Randi, or at the membership here -- anything but actually work on a real, objective, properly controlled test.

You could prove me wrong, of course. You could start by actually working on the protocol. I suspect that you will ignore all of my protocol-related comments and argue with me about what I have said about your motivations but you know what? I won't believe you until you show me. Show me that you are serious about the protocol by only working on the protocol until it is done. I dare you.

So I answer your Direct Questions as you and others had requested and as a Reward you give me MORE SNARKINESS .

You are just like the rest

I will not let anyone on the JREF Forum dictate what I Can and Can't discuss openly on the JREF Forum.

If the Million is lost on the Stock market. I will question it.

If Randi continues to make statements that I've "NEVER APPLIED", I will continue to question it.

If they say he's Counterfeited I will continue to question if he broke the law.


It appears that you want to use my protocol negotiations as a way to Silence my quest for truth!

So it's one or the other with you then?

 

[The Professor]

Why so complicated, Professor?

I mean that.

Why do you need all of that complicated electronic hardware. Why do you need such a bizarre set0up? Voices will either appear or they will not. Why do the voices (or images) need loads of false and meaningless data in order for them to manifest themselves? Why can't the manifect themselves amid no data whatsoever?

Think of it in another way: People suspect you of cheating. The simpler the set-up, the harder people will think it is to cheat. So you need the simplest set-up possible. A complicated rig of audio and video feedback is exactly the thing people would expect a magician to do. There's so much more room to hide the elephant that way.

Think of it in yet a third way: the more complicated your set-up, the less likely the JREF will ever agree to it. So, if you want to be able to tell the world how the JREF backed out of your test (or you want to actually be tested), it is in your interests to make your protocol as simple as possible.

A mirror for feedback ... honestly, now.

I am SIMPLIFYING the situation. A simple Mac laptop, placed on my knees with an examinable mirror and a standard feedback loop.
Pretty basic really.

Paranormal Researchers use feedback loops ALL THE TIME .... so calling it a Magicians Trick is off base. But as far as you critical thinkers go ALL OF IT IS SOME KIND OF TRICK.

So if you are going back to the old defense of
MAGIC TRICK, MAGIC TRICK, MAGIC TRICK,

Please come up with something new.
It gets old

 

[The Professor]

Way back in this tread Mr. Koenig posted some links to the equipment he wanted to use.The first link was to a youtube video of a Radio Shack 4 band radio (AM/FM/TV/Weather) which had been modified to continually scan the selected band, while outputting the audio. Mostly static was heard, but occasionally a snippet of a word could be heard. That snippet was deamed to be paranormal in origin (EVP). Now, Mr. Koenig has introduced another idea of a video feed back loop. This is kind of like standing between two parallel mirrors and seeing the reflections in each mirror getting smaller and smaller to infinity. He wants to replace one mirror with a laptop with a camera. I think there is a famouse painting (Rockwell?) of a painter painting a painter painting a painter... It seems Mr. Koenig is still trying to figure out how to prove his claim. He does not appear to be ready to discuss a protocol. I think his application may have been a bit premature.

-LF

I have been asked to simplify things and I am attempting to do so with the most modern technologies available. Seems logical to me. What's the problem with simplifying it?


I am in FACT designing protocol with every post!

 

[The Professor]

The media presence has not illustrated the specific claim, but the media have accepted that he can do paranormal stuff. It is this fact that makes it worthwhile for the JREF to let him have a go at the challenge, even if he has never demonstrated his actual claim.


Few applicants have tested themselves before. This has never been a requirement.

2) What paranormal things can they do? Read minds? foresee the future? see inside closed containers? Locate missing persons? Answer questions? Communicate with dead people?

The claim clearly states that the voices appear paranormally. Although TP hints at all sorts of other things, this is his claim, and this should be what is tested. I agree that other paranormal characteristics would be easier to test, but the claim would have to be changed if the protocol should test for this. Currently, TP is investigating if his voices can appear inside a sound-proof box, and when he finds that they cannot, he will be hard-pressed to find another method that eliminated hidden loudspeakers.[/QUOTE]

I've enjoyed this post.

It is clear, shows where the others have missed the mark, and reveals how you think it might be done AS A TRICK.

I applaud your honesty and clear thinking here!

Actually the "Sound Proof Box" would be the Easiest thing in my mind to gaff. Micro chips (or whatever they put into greeting cards etc) that produce sound could be built into absolutely any section of the box. You'd have to dismantle and disect each little piece. You'd have to cut the entire box into tiny 1/4 inch pieces to be "absolutely" sure.

So ... the Box Idea won't work realistically.

I'm now thinking that making EVERYTHING visible to the testers is the way to go. Everything totally visible!