INTELLIGENT DESIGN vs Non-intelligent/materialistic evolution

[Jeff Corey]

Ships made of METAL, be it noted. Metal which quite clearly sinks in water - you can try the experiment yourself!

And concrete! You ever try to float that?
On August 2, 1917, N.K. Fougner of Norway launched the first ocean-going concrete ship, an 84 foot long boat named Namsenfjord. With the success of the ship, several more small concrete vessels were built.



Picture of the Namsenfjord

 

[learner]

I like the way you think. I can only prove ID using common sense or logic, providing you will first agree that orderliness requires intelligent direction. If you don't believe that order requires intelligent direction, you and I will always disagree about this particular matter.

I live near a beach. it is about twelve thousand years old ( older than the earth, i know, bear with me) it is 18 miles long and grades from sand, imperceptibly to pebbles from one end to the other. Years ago pirates, landing ashore at night would carry samples from the beach that they had previously collected at one mile intervals. Using these samples they were able to judge their position on the beach by comparison and without giving themselves away with lights. Clever stuff. This beach is beautifully organised. According to you this organisation must require intelligent direction. It doesn't, it is no more than an algorithmic sieve action brought about by wave action.
I could go on about wave action, gravity, planet rotation and friction and even how it allows you to surf! its very interesting, but no way intelligent. I suspect you know all you think you need to know. And all in one book.
Oh, and what is materialistic evolution?

 

[Shalamar]

Intelligent Design/Creationism is true because there is a God.
Since there is a God, Intelligent Design MUST be true.
Since Intelligent Design is True, Evolution MUST be false.
Since Evolution is False, Intelligent Design is True!

Intelligent Design Wins! Its Common Sense!

No.. No... Intelligent Design FAILS. Common Sense is not a scientific trait. Common Sense says that anything heavier than air falls. Yet Airplanes stay up in the air. Science wins.

Intelligent Design, in order to have proofs, MUST stand on its own evidence. So far it has none. Intelligent Design is a basis of pure faith.

 

[CurtC]

I like the way you think. I can only prove ID using common sense or logic, providing you will first agree that orderliness requires intelligent direction.

I look forward to this discussion with you, but first, you must agree that intelligent direction requires orderliness.

 

[Wildy]

No.. No... Intelligent Design FAILS. Common Sense is not a scientific trait. Common Sense says that anything heavier than air falls. Yet Airplanes stay up in the air. Science wins.

You could have just pointed to quantum theory. Pretty much none of it makes any sense whatsoever.

 

[westprog]

And if you look very closely at the water crystal image Westprog provided, as I have, you will see numerous flaws in it. It isn't perfect; it isn't even symmetrical.

I had some difficulty finding a snowflake picture from Google. Most of the pictures are generated or drawn, because they end up looking neater - though to my taste, the imperfection of nature is preferable.

Anyone can see the complex patterns made by nature quite independently of life and intelligence. There's no need to abandon or seek religious faith to appreciate this.

 

[Wowbagger]

Why Darwin and Dawkins want to attribute such complexity to non-intelligent sources, I can only guess, because there only appears to be their "assumption" that this is true.

We don't assume any such thing!

Intelligence as a cause is not really completely ruled-out by natural algorithms and theories such a Evolution.

Intelligent Designers, such as God, are rendered superfluous: An entity unecessary to build and utilize the models of science.

If you ask Dawkins, he would say he is a "defacto" atheist. He admits he does not know, with absolute certainty if God exists or not. He thinks his existence is just very unlikely.

And, one can still be a good person, without God, you know.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Actually, this was only a part of his loss of faith. As Darwin uncovered more and more species that performed horrific ungodlike acts to ensure their species survival, he denied that a god would have conciously designed something like that. Take for example particular species of wasps, who sting other animals (such as giant tarantulas) to paralyse them (but keep them alive), drag them back to their nest, and lay eggs inside of them. Thus the prey is slowen eaten alive from the inside out while being concious but unable to react. Why would your god design something like that? Was he on crack? Bad day at the office?

What? Who ever heard of anything like that? I think you're making it up.

 

[Ashles]

Westprog, I like your beautiful little perfect looking water crystal or whatever it is.

Check out MASARU EMOTO. His research reveals the effects various emotions like love, hate, etc. have on water. The picture you have posted here appears to be water imbued with the emotion of love, peace, joy, or something in harmony with the emotional frequency of Mother Nature.

Apparently, beauty and order are the product of MIND, in everything, including NATURE. Emoto subjects water to various forms of emotion, then freezes the water, and examines the resulting ice crystals.

The crystals formed from hateful emotions are not symmetrical, but twisted and distorted looking. Since our bodies are approximately 70% water, we might want to think and feel more lovingly, joyfully, peacefully for prettier and healthier bodies, right?

Personally, I believe everything is intelligent because of things like this.

Ironically I believe not everything is intelligent because of posts like this.

 

[six7s]

I don't know how to prove, scientifically, that intelligence was responsible for natural selection, evolution, etc.

Then, please, stop pretending you have any certainty that ID is anything other than agenda-driven wishful thinking

However, philosophy is always ahead of science.

You like this phrase, huh? Will this be the subject of your next tangent?

Common sense or logic seems to be all that's necessary for someone without a political agenda.

If you are implying that someone has an agenda, then please be specific.

Remember Einstein?

Forget Einstein; although you might know his name and that he merits some rather superlative epithets, it is abundantly clear that you have no idea what he was doing in 'the last 30 years of his life', nor do you understand why or how. Instead, remember that this is a critical thinking forum and try to think before you post any more nonsense

 

[paximperium]

What did I miss? Let me see, same old drivel...no new content, logical fallacies, nonsense and continued dishonest dodging of the main questions...

The BWINWRIGHT UNANSWERED QUESTION (DODGE) LIST:
1)Justify and explain why order requires intelligence? Provide a mathematical proof or evidence to support his assertion.
2)Describe and explain the mechanism for how "god" directs ID or evidence for ID.

To everyone else, please feel free to add to this list. We can keep adding onto it until he actually answers it or keeps cowardly and dishonestly running away.

 

[Crundy]

What? Who ever heard of anything like that? I think you're making it up.

Heh, I actually went to find a reference and then saw your username and almost p**sed myself

 

[six7s]

I can only prove ID using common sense or logic

You persist in using the wrong term

You are not proving ID; you are merely asserting it - from a position of ignorance and incredulity with regard to reality

dictionary.reference.com/browse/prove

dictionary.reference.com/browse/assert

 

[Tricky]

Actually, this was only a part of his loss of faith. As Darwin uncovered more and more species that performed horrific ungodlike acts to ensure their species survival, he denied that a god would have conciously designed something like that. Take for example particular species of wasps, who sting other animals (such as giant tarantulas) to paralyse them (but keep them alive), drag them back to their nest, and lay eggs inside of them. Thus the prey is slowen eaten alive from the inside out while being concious but unable to react. Why would your god design something like that? Was he on crack? Bad day at the office?

There are lots of examples in the animal kingdom of less-than-moral behavior. Several times I've witnessed Mallard drakes gang-raping a female duck. As I understand, sometimes they wind up killing the female.

Oh, yeah, and those noble Lions? The leader of the pride will often kill any offspring that are not his own.

Boy, that intelligent designer was sure one mean bastard.

 

[six7s]

Boy, that intelligent designer was sure one mean bastard.

Amen to that!

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.

Amen.

 

[bokonon]

Bwinwright, you've started a half a dozen threads in the past week, and I've yet to see you do anything in any of them except express your own personal incredulity. If you're actually capable of engaging in discussion, I'd like to find out more about the intelligence that you see designing the world.

Is it just one big brain, or is it more like Santa and his helpers, or terrorist cells? By that I mean, is there one central authority that comes up with all the designs, and manufactures them, or does the central authority farm out design tasks to "tree elves" for forests and "raccoon elves" for raccoons, and "bacteria elves" for bacteria, etc? Or is it completely decentralized, with independent cells of intelligence deciding for themselves whether they'll design raccoons or giraffes, and then handling the manufacture autonomously?

The non-intelligent design faction has put forth a number of specifics ("small changes, deep time," "descent with modification," "natural selection," etc.) as a basis for discussing their theory. Does the "intelligent design" crowd have anything like that, or does it always boil down to "Wow, I can't understand how that would work, so I'll assume intelligent design" for folks like you?

You've said, "Unless you accept that complex order requires intelligence, we'll never agree," but as far as I can see, you've never attempted to make the case that this premise is true. Of course, people who assume intelligence is required are already on the same page you're on, so they don't need convincing. Do you believe that snowflakes require intelligence? Do you believe that Saturn's rings require intelligence? If so, why?

For me, the properties of gaseous water molecules at low temperatures in the presence of a suspended dust particle upon which to crystallize "explains" snowflakes without requiring intelligence. Orbital mechanics "explains" the rings of Saturn without requiring intelligence. Why do you think intelligence gets involved in these cases? Would snowflakes look different without the involvement of intelligence? How would they look, and why?

 

[I Ratant]

What? Who ever heard of anything like that? I think you're making it up.

.
Tarantula Hawk Wasp....abpit 1-1/2 times lifesize.. huge bug!
They do to tarantulas what the ichneumeon does to other bugs.
Ona cause god made them do it, or in the fullness of time it just works out well for them.

 

[Brian-M]

The BWINWRIGHT UNANSWERED QUESTION (DODGE) LIST:
1)Justify and explain why order requires intelligence? Provide a mathematical proof or evidence to support his assertion.
2)Describe and explain the mechanism for how "god" directs ID or evidence for ID.

To everyone else, please feel free to add to this list.

The BWINWRIGHT UNANSWERED QUESTION (DODGE) LIST:
1) Justify and explain why order requires intelligence? Provide a mathematical proof or evidence to support his assertion.
2) Describe and explain the mechanism for how "god" directs ID or evidence for ID.
3) How exactly is natural selection intelligently guided? If it's THE controversial point, it's something we should know.

To everyone else, please feel free to add to this list.

Their claim of non-intelligence being responsible for natural selection is THE controversial point.

I was very disappointed that he never answered my question. I've never heard any claim of natural selection being intelligently guided, and I was seriously hoping he could tell me how it's supposed to work.

Call me stupid if you want, but I don't understand how the idea that natural selection is the result of non-intelligent processes could possibly be controversial.

Could you explain the concept of intelligent natural selection for me using an example, such as the running speed of Gazelles?

 

[Brian-M]

I can only prove ID using common sense or logic, providing you will first agree that orderliness requires intelligent direction. If you don't believe that order requires intelligent direction, you and I will always disagree about this particular matter.

Intelligent direction is not required to produce order. This is not just an opinion, but a firmly established scientific fact, backed up by thousands of examples. If your 'proof' of intelligent design is based on the claim that order requires intelligent direction, then it has already been thoroughly disproven an there is nothing more to discuss.

Check out MASARU EMOTO. His research reveals the effects various emotions like love, hate, etc. have on water. The picture you have posted here appears to be water imbued with the emotion of love, peace, joy, or something in harmony with the emotional frequency of Mother Nature.

Apparently, beauty and order are the product of MIND, in everything, including NATURE. Emoto subjects water to various forms of emotion, then freezes the water, and examines the resulting ice crystals.

The crystals formed from hateful emotions are not symmetrical, but twisted and distorted looking. Since our bodies are approximately 70% water, we might want to think and feel more lovingly, joyfully, peacefully for prettier and healthier bodies, right?

I think this subject deserves a thread of it's own. Why not post that claim on the general skepticism board? I'm sure you'll get a lot of responses.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Heh, I actually went to find a reference and then saw your username and almost p**sed myself

Sorry, I couldn't resist.