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Scriptural literacy

I had read that chapter with the caldron/flesh references being a metaphor for a sacrifice, possibly to a god other than "the LORD". In other words, the wicked men were setting up a competing religion, possibly an apocalyptic one, where the city and its inhabitants were to be the sacrificial vessel and offerings respectively. There is quite a bit in Leviticus regarding various types of sacrifice and what should be done with the offerings, including the proper way to boil up and consume certain offerings. It seems to fit with much of the Old Testament, as it is often about God getting peeved at any possibility of competition.

By slaughtering the wicked men outside the borders, God is making it clear just how unacceptable he finds the sacrifice. And if it really were an apocalyptic religion, the reason for not needing to build houses should be fairly clear.
 
Funny! This is like setting up an elephant in a clearing, positioning a thousand men armed with long spikes to stick it, and then claiming that it isn't an attempt to kill it. Which is when my BS detector goes off scale.
 
You can decide either to address the issues at play or continue to pursue non-sequiturs such as this. It is your choice. I have explained that our intent here is to discuss the gospels as literature. I have provided the actual assumptions we make, which are minimal and do not necessarily include belief in God nor non-belief.

I am not pursuing anything. I was addressed with a question and responded. That you take umbrage with my response is totally your choice.

The primary assumption is that the works are literary and that they can be addressed as works of literature.

Of course.

There a multiple assumptions behind the idea that God is responsible for the content of the Bible, as already discussed. The same is not true for the literary approach to the gospels.

That's an impossibility. People drag their beliefs into the matter in one way or the other. Those believing in hell translate the word sheol as hell while those who don't translate it as either the grave or use the original word itself. Others who approach the Bible from a Trinitarian viewpoint use capitalization in order to make Jesus appear as God himself. Those who aren't leave the text as is. Similarly, atheists bring their atheistic conveniently bring their atheist predisposiitions along rejecting all possible answers that justify the existence of God and choosing instead all possible answers which will serve their atheist purpose of disproving God''s existence. In short, they make no room for any explanation other than the purely materialistic one.


Curiously, such a tendency to denigrate anything that leads to Bible believability via trying to prove deception has very often caused considerable embarrassment when their assertions have bee proven ridiculously wrong via archeological discoveries. Then they hunker down again and begin idiotically formulating the next accusation. This has happened so many times that one would expect a lesson would be learned. But hoist on their own atheistic or anti-biblical petard they just plow ahead anyway hoping on hope that his newest idea won't come up short.

Sticking your fingers in your ears, stamping the floor, and repeating "But you are assuming, you are assuming!", especially when your concerns have already been addressed

I have no concerns.

....appears childish at best....

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


The one you are pursuing is not only not working, but it reflects very badly on your rhetorical skill.

Your opinion to me is really of no account. It's to be expected. If you feel you are right, then go about your business ad simply attribute my concepts to ignorance and I will do the same in reference to yours. That should settle the matter-no? If not then maybe a good workout at the gym during which you furiously pummel a cross might do it for you.

If you will accept a little advice, if I were you, I would try a different approach.

That's ridiculous! If you were me you'd be me and being me would be doing just what I am doing-being me.
 
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That's an impossibility. People drag their beliefs into the matter in one way or the other. Those believing in hell translate the word sheol as hell while those who don't translate it as either the grave or use the original word itself. Others who approach the Bible from a Trinitarian viewpoint use capitalization in order to make Jesus appear as God himself. Those who aren't leave the text as is. In atheists bring their atheistic predisposiitions into biblical
study, rejecting all possible answers that might justify the existence of God and choosing instead all possible answers which will serve their purpose of disproving God''s existence. In short, they make no room for any explanation other than the purely materialistic one.
You've just gave clear reasons why Piggy's approach is the only honest way to approach the study.
He seeks to undertsand the context in which the authors are likely to have intended (as much as this is possible.)

Curiously, such a tendency to denigrate has very often caused considerable embarrassment when their assertions have bee proven ridiculously wrong via archeological discoveries. Then they hunker down again and begin idiotically formulating the next accusation. This has happened so many times that one would expect a lesson would be learned. But hoist on their own atheistic petard they just plow ahead anyway hoping on hope that
this newest idea won't come up short.
Wow. I never knew that atheists have been proven wrong regarding biblical interpretation so many times as a result of archeological findings. I would love to learn more about these events. Would you mind providing links to some examples of this, which you've said has happened many times?
 
Radrook,

I'm trying to understand your position, but I sense that we are talking past one another since what I see you writing doesn't follow what I have written previously. In my experience this happens either because the one person doesn't know what s/he wants to say or because s/he is trying to make an argument different from what is actually written. I think you know what you are trying to say, so I assume the other.

I suspect that you took the wrong approach in saying that we assume the non-existence of God in our discussion. We are not trying to prove that God does not exist in this analysis, so we are not doing the circular reasoning bit of assuming our conclusion.

Trying not to kill an elephant but showering it with grenades? Assuming that the elephant is worthy of distrust and proceeding on that assumption. Rejecting any explanation which would put the elephant in a better light? The claiming you mean the creature no harm? Sorry but that seems rather quaint.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect what you actually want to argue is that we cannot understand properly what is in the gospels without the grace of God, since understanding can only dawn on those provided it. It's an old argument and a very dangerous one (there actually is a circular argument built into that one).
Let me know if that is your actual argument, because the argument from assumptions just isn't working.

Proper or improper understanding caused by God or lack of God isn't really the issue. It's manner of approach that's the issue. In short, I find the claims to unbiased approach unconvincing.
 
Trying not to kill an elephant but showering it with grenades? Assuming that the elephant is worthy of distrust and proceeding on that assumption. Rejecting any explanation which would put the elephant in a better light? The claiming you mean the creature no harm? Sorry but that seems rather quaint.

You seem continually focused on this "killing the elephant" argument but it simply exposes your rather simplistic view of the debate at hand.

Certainly a group of men brandishing sticks, guns, and torture kits can look rather menacingly. Indeed, from the naive eye, it may look like the men wish harm.

But what would you think if it was explained that
the sticks are measuring rulers, used to get the hieght and length of the elephant.
The gun is a tranqulizer gun, used to subdue the animal without harming it.
And the torture kit is in fact a vetrinarian kit, used to inspect the elephant for disease.

A scholarly evaluation of the bible is not a grenade toss, but a surgical scalpel. Certainly that blade can inflict harm, but honest intellectual integrity is used to stay the hand. That's why intellectual integrity is not taken lightly, nor should challenges to it be made so wantonly.

Dismissing the process because it looks bad to you is identical to a child saying the surgeon is evil because he cuts people.
 
Proper or improper understanding caused by God or lack of God isn't really the issue. It's manner of approach that's the issue. In short, I find the claims to unbiased approach unconvincing.


I'm just going to let the rest of your screed go unanswered as there is no sense in replying to it, but this clearly needs rejoinder.

You engaged this debate by specifically stating that godlessness was the issue.

Who in this thread has claimed an unbiased approach? I certainly have not. I argued with you about what you thought was the underlying assumption driving the entire discussion, but since you now seem to agree that it isn't an issue, I suppose we can now let it all drop?
 
That's your twisted perception of what I said.

It's not so twisted Rad, your faith reveals your belief and your Sig assumes ours.

Fascination is a subjective. Neither does fascination prove anything at all except that the perceiver feels fascinated,. Jugglers fascinate the audience. Even comedians do.

My fascination is directed at history surrounding the biblical writings. I don't carry any assumptions regarding this history, only total interest.
On the other hand, jugglers and comedians entertain Me.

Again, "goodness" is subjective. Hitler was considered good by some. Acid rock, drugs, child molestation is considered good by others. As to godlessness, I explained what I meant and what I meant isn't what you are claim I am saying.

You make odd comparisons of good, Rad.

Faith is required for God and is emphasized in the bible as a linchpin to make the connection to God. Therefore, you are a believer and assume that our intentions are an attempt to discredit this faith. That's a wrong assumption.
 
It's not so twisted Rad, your faith reveals your belief and your Sig assumes ours.

My sig isn't referring to any specific person.



My fascination is directed at history surrounding the biblical writings. I don't carry any assumptions regarding this history, only total interest. On the other hand, jugglers and comedians entertain Me.

It's not the fascination that I find questionable.

You make odd comparisons of good, Rad.

I only describe what I see and what is common knowledge.


Faith is required for God and is emphasized in the bible as a linchpin to make the connection to God.

Nowhere in the Bible is blind faith recommended as a basis for belief. The Apostle Paul makes that clear in Romans the second chapter. Neither are the early Christians described as believing merely on blind faith but are described as being witnesses to phenomena upon which their beliefs were based.

Therefore, you are a believer and assume that our intentions are an attempt to discredit this faith. That's a wrong assumption.

That's a conclusion reached only after observations of the modus operandi being employed is made.
 
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I'm just going to let the rest of your screed go unanswered as there is no sense in replying to it, but this clearly needs rejoinder.

OK

You engaged this debate by specifically stating that godlessness was the issue.

It is an issue since those following the general line of reasoning being used will conclude that the Biblical God doesn't exist. Is it a concern? If by concern is meant a worry over which I fume then no-it isn't a concern. In fact, from my viewpoint you people are simply fulfilling prophecy: 2 Peter 3:2-4 So how can that possibly be worrying me?


Who in this thread has claimed an unbiased approach?

All approaches by necessity lean one way or the other. It's the degree of leaning and the methods employed to give that leaning apparent credibility which are considered unethical.
Assumptions of dishonesty, of cunning collusion, of purposeful misrepresentations and exaggerations, of temporal priorities being sufficient to declare indisputable source or cause,
ad infinitum. It just all hints at quackery.


I certainly have not. I argued with you about what you thought was the underlying assumption driving the entire discussion, but since you now seem to agree that it isn't an issue, I suppose we can now let it all drop?

So your methodology upholds the Biblical God? Could have fooled me.

BTW

Here is an example of your preferred needless suspicions in reference to Bible authorship:
"The names of a few of them are well-known. Most of the others, including all of the gospels, are not. The ascriptions were not made for another century until after they were written at a time when apostolic legacy was considered vitally important."

The premise, the importance of apostolic legacy doesn't justify the preferred conclusion. In fact, one wonders why you people even prefer to choose suspicion in the first place.

Care to explain?

In short, I find the reason for your suspicions unconvincing. An opinion at best and nothing more-and one based on fallacious reasoning to boot!
 
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All approaches by necessity lean one way or the other. It's the degree of leaning and the methods employed to give that leaning apparent credibility which are considered unethical.
Assumptions of dishonesty, of cunning collusion, of purposeful misrepresentations and exaggerations, of temporal priorities being sufficient to declare indisputable source or cause,
ad infinitum. It just all hints at quackery.

WTF are you talking about? What assumptions of dishonesty, cunning collusion, etc. has anyone recently posting in this thread mentioned? Unethical? WTF are you talking about?


So your methodology upholds the Biblical God? Could have fooled me.

Again, WTF are you talking about?


Here is an example of your preferred needless suspicions in reference to Bible authorship:

My needless suspicions? First, those are not my conclusions, but rather the conclusions of numerous biblical scholars. Most admit now that the authors of the gospels are not known. We know when the ascriptions were first mentioned in the literature. This is not a secret.

Second, what is needless about questioning who wrote the gospels and for what reason? That is the beginning of all such analysis. If I pick up a copy of Moby Dick and see it is authored by Ralph Smelting of Simonton, Conneticut I plan to approach it differently from the copy I have on my desk right now.


The premise, the importance of apostolic legacy doesn't justify the preferred conclusion. In fact, one wonders why you people even prefer to choose suspicion in the first place.

What? Are you trying to tell me that the general consensus among biblical scholars of repute -- that the authorship of the gospels is unknown -- is complete tripe because you don't like it? There are solid reasons why those conclusions have been reached and no evidence -- aside from ascriptions made a century after the fact -- that the names attached to these works are accurate.

Care to explain?

Sure (I assume that you are referring to the apostolic tradition). The generally considered first book written was Mark. Mark, even by tradition, was not an eyewitness of the events. Matthew and Luke (another non-witness of the events in the gospels even by tradition) lift entire passages out of Mark's gospel, changing some and leaving much of the rest unaltered. An eyewitness does not generally take another's writings and adopt them whole hog.

John was portrayed as a fisherman in the synoptic gospels. He is expressly mentioned as being either unschooled or illiterate in Acts. Yet, the author of John was highly literate. That book is beautifully written, complex, and philosophical.

You should not assume because I argue that some of the passages in Mark and John appear to work better as metaphors than as straight history that I am arguing that the whole thing is made up. I am not arguing that at all. What I am saying is that it appears to me that the author of Mark, for instance, appears to use particular metaphors in his work that futher his message (that no one knew who Jesus was while he was alive, with a few notable exceptions), and that an overly literal reading of the text may give the wrong impression. That's it. Nothing more. No collusion, no lies. Keep in mind that the teachings are often rendered in parable -- that is the spoken form of teaching that is most like metaphor in writing (or speech).

The authors of these texts firmly believed what they wrote, and they wrote their works in highly literary fashion. The problem arises when folks come at them as though they are bare history -- they weren't meant as bare history, they weren't written as bare history. They are confessional works. Mark's gospel begins with the good news, not "In the year of.....I, John Mark, witnessed these events...." as a history was written at that time. The closest we get to that sort of writing is with Luke's gospel.

The works are also not written from an eyewitness perspective. There is no "I did this, then I saw that". The closest we ever get to that sort of writing comes in a few passages in Acts where Luke suddenly adopts an "I" perspective when discussing Paul's movements, but even those passages are felt by some to represent an intercolation of older sources that were simply placed into Acts. No one knows for sure; assumptions abound on all sides when discussing this material.

Now, also keep in mind, that analyses such as this are not used to prove that the gospels were not written by disciples (I haven't argued that and I don't think anyone else in the last few pages has either), but that there simply is no contemporary evidence to suppose that they were. Why assume to be true that for which there is no evidence and for which there was a reason to argue apostolic tradition? Books were not included in the canon without an apostolic stamp of approval, so there definitely was impetus to argue that a particular book was handed down in that tradition. No one argues known facts in this situation, only likelihoods. There simply is no certainty in either direction.
 
My sig isn't referring to any specific person.

But it appears to be your perception of this thread.


I only describe what I see and what is common knowledge.

Like I said before, you choose odd subjects for comparison. My comment of "good discussion" refers to the historical aspects involving the apostles, not Hitler, Acid rock, drugs, or child molestation.

Nowhere in the Bible is blind faith recommended as a basis for belief. The Apostle Paul makes that clear in Romans the second chapter. Neither are the early Christians described as believing merely on blind faith but are described as being witnesses to phenomena upon which their beliefs were based.

Rad read what i said again:

Faith is required for God and is emphasized in the bible as a linchpin to make the connection to God.

Faith is required for God, as Jesus said:"Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me" (John 14:1).
We are not to put our faith in that which is false (Matthew 24:23,26).
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

That's a conclusion reached only after observations of the modus operandi being employed is made.

What is your assumption of the modus operandi here? If you believe this thread is meant to discredit biblical passages, then your perception is skewered.
 
I had read that chapter with the caldron/flesh references being a metaphor for a sacrifice, possibly to a god other than "the LORD". In other words, the wicked men were setting up a competing religion, possibly an apocalyptic one, where the city and its inhabitants were to be the sacrificial vessel and offerings respectively. There is quite a bit in Leviticus regarding various types of sacrifice and what should be done with the offerings, including the proper way to boil up and consume certain offerings. It seems to fit with much of the Old Testament, as it is often about God getting peeved at any possibility of competition.

By slaughtering the wicked men outside the borders, God is making it clear just how unacceptable he finds the sacrifice. And if it really were an apocalyptic religion, the reason for not needing to build houses should be fairly clear.

Well, part of God's unhappiness with Jerusalem was allowing other cults to worship in the temple. In fact, Ezekiel is shown people worshipping the sun (Ezekiel 8:16). But I don't get the feeling that starting a competing religion is what chapt. 11 is about. I don't feel "wicked counsel" and "mischief" would be used to describe their actions if what they really were doing was planning on sacrificing the remaining citizens.

If we look at it that Zedekiah, the king of Judah (who was a puppet-ruler for Babylon), became convinced by his advisors to align with the Egyptians against Nebuchadrezzar, then basically God is telling them their poor choices have caused the death of the people. Nebuchadrezzar was sending an army to take back the city, and God would offer them no protection.
 
Well, part of God's unhappiness with Jerusalem was allowing other cults to worship in the temple. In fact, Ezekiel is shown people worshipping the sun (Ezekiel 8:16). But I don't get the feeling that starting a competing religion is what chapt. 11 is about. I don't feel "wicked counsel" and "mischief" would be used to describe their actions if what they really were doing was planning on sacrificing the remaining citizens.


Sure, I was thinking sacrifice in a metaphorical sense, rather than the actual.

If we look at it that Zedekiah, the king of Judah (who was a puppet-ruler for Babylon), became convinced by his advisors to align with the Egyptians against Nebuchadrezzar, then basically God is telling them their poor choices have caused the death of the people. Nebuchadrezzar was sending an army to take back the city, and God would offer them no protection.


That does make sense in terms of the historical background Ezekiel is responding to, but that would still leave some confusion as to the meaning of the prophetic parts of chapter 11.

Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.'

And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will take the stony heart out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. But as for those whose heart goes after their detestable things and their abominations, I will requite their deeds upon their own heads, says the Lord GOD."
 
I don't know all that much about this, but didn't most of the prophetic writers see a connection between idolatry and the bad decisions the Israelites made? For instance, the theme of Judges (I know, not a prophetic work, but work with me here) is that the people keep making bad decisions and want a king because they don't trust God and this is linnked with their lapses into idol worship. Their "self-rule" under the judges spins further and further out of control until we get the image of a concubine raped to death and cut up into 12 pieces.

The frequent references to adultery, I thought, were often meant as lapses into idolatry, which was part and parcel of the peoples' rejection of God, and hence their bad decisions, and hence the fallen state in which they found themselves.
 
WTF are you talking about? What assumptions of dishonesty, cunning collusion, etc. has anyone recently posting in this thread mentioned? Unethical? WTF are you talking about?

It's not mentioned, it's implied.


snip


My needless suspicions? First, those are not my conclusions, but rather the conclusions of numerous biblical scholars. Most admit now that the authors of the gospels are not known. We know when the ascriptions were first mentioned in the literature. This is not a secret.

I wasn't implying that you are the originator of the suspicions. You are merely one oif the the propagators and supporters.


Second, what is needless about questioning who wrote the gospels and for what reason? That is the beginning of all such analysis. If I pick up a copy of Moby Dick and see it is authored by Ralph Smelting of Simonton, Conneticut I plan to approach it differently from the copy I have on my desk right now.


Glad you admit that the foundation of the discussion is based on a questioning of veracity. How does that jive with considering someone innocent until proven guilty?


What? Are you trying to tell me that the general consensus among biblical scholars of repute -- that the authorship of the gospels is unknown -- is complete tripe because you don't like it? There are solid reasons why those conclusions have been reached and no evidence -- aside from ascriptions made a century after the fact -- that the names attached to these works are accurate.

Please take note that general consensus referrals as justification for conclusions reached is an appeal to bandwagon. It was the general consensus once among astronomers that the universe was geocentric, then it was the general consensus that it was heliocentric, then the general consensus was that our Milky Way was all there was. That galaxies were merely nebula, or cloudy formations within the Milky Way. The list of general consensuses is really almost limitless.

The same applies to general consensuses in relation to the Bible and its veracity. Accusations began to fly left and right followed by discoveries which made the accusers eat crow. But I guess they liked the taste of crow since they simply hunkered down for the next attempt. Accusations of the existenvce of biblical personages, places, events only to be followed by admissions of being wrong only to be followed by a new barrage.
Have an explanation for this phenomenon?


Sure (I assume that you are referring to the apostolic tradition). The generally considered first book written was Mark. Mark, even by tradition, was not an eyewitness of the events. Matthew and Luke (another non-witness of the events in the gospels even by tradition) lift entire passages out of Mark's gospel, changing some and leaving much of the rest unaltered. An eyewitness does not generally take another's writings and adopt them whole hog.

John was portrayed as a fisherman in the synoptic gospels. He is expressly mentioned as being either unschooled or illiterate in Acts. Yet, the author of John was highly literate. That book is beautifully written, complex, and philosophical.

That's silly! First, it was an accepted custom to use secretaries in order to have things written down while the person dictated. The
Apostle Paul who was an educated man resorted to it. Changes in style can easily be explained by the changes in secretaries employed. Also, change of subject matter requires a shift of style and writers do that all the time. I do it myself when shifting from humor to poetry, to novel to short story. Take all my writings and you'll see a diversity which can be construed to mean that different authors were involved when it's just little ole wanamaker me.

BTW
It was once purported vehemently that Moses was illiterate or that he coulnb'd have been literate because writing wasn't invented yet during his days. That was later found to be a baseless accusation. So they hunkered down for the next attempt.

You should not assume because I argue that some of the passages in Mark and John appear to work better as metaphors than as straight history that I am arguing that the whole thing is made up. I am not arguing that at all. What I am saying is that it appears to me that the author of Mark, for instance, appears to use particular metaphors in his work that futher his message (that no one knew who Jesus was while he was alive, with a few notable exceptions), and that an overly literal reading of the text may give the wrong impression. That's it. Nothing more. No collusion, no lies. Keep in mind that the teachings are often rendered in parable -- that is the spoken form of teaching that is most like metaphor in writing (or speech).

The authors of these texts firmly believed what they wrote, and they wrote their works in highly literary fashion.[/uote]\

The problem arises when folks come at them as though they are bare history -- they weren't meant as bare history, they weren't written as bare history. They are confessional works. Mark's gospel begins with the good news, not "In the year of.....I, John Mark, witnessed these events...." as a history was written at that time.

They assumed the people reading it would know by the context what year it was taking place in. Ummm, Romans, Ceasarr,
Pontious Pilate, Herod, Herod's Temple, Decopolis cities, you know, littlke hints like that. Furthermore. Luke specifically tells us the time in his Gospel so it doesn't need repetition in the others.

The closest we get to that sort of writing is with Luke's gospel.

The book of Acts is also attributed to Luke and is a predominantly historical document and mentions as fact many of the same things mentioned in the Gospels as fact. Of course what Luke says is OK as long as he doesn't corroborate any of the Gospel material. Then he's suddenly persona non grata.


The works are also not written from an eyewitness perspective. There is no "I did this, then I saw that". The closest we ever get to that sort of writing comes in a few passages in Acts where Luke suddenly adopts an "I" perspective when discussing Paul's movements, but even those passages are felt by some to represent an intercolation of older sources that were simply placed into Acts. No one knows for sure; assumptions abound on all sides when discussing this material.

But you prefer your assumptions as long as they are yours. Isn't that what you accuse me of doing?


{quote]
Now, also keep in mind, that analyses such as this are not used to prove that the gospels were not written by disciples (I haven't argued that and I don't think anyone else in the last few pages has either), but that there simply is no contemporary evidence to suppose that they were.

I know that you aren't questioning that the gospels were written by disciples. Obviously the content makes the indisputable. Like saying that a pro evolution book isn't written by evolutionists. I'm sure no one can be that dense. What you are challenging is the
consensus held for the better part of 1,900 years as that they were written by the authors generally accepted as the authors. Namely, Matthew Mark Luke and John. Hope that clears up it up.

BTW

The Jews never questioned the existence of Jesus. Only his Messiahship. Care to explain why?

Why assume to be true that for which there is no evidence and for which there was a reason to argue apostolic tradition? Books were not included in the canon without an apostolic stamp of approval, so there definitely was impetus to argue that a particular book was handed down in that tradition. No one argues known facts in this situation, only likelihoods. There simply is no certainty in either direction.


Because you assume to be true many things for which you have no evidence and take no umbrage unless the assumption has to do with the Bible and God. So your double standards makes your demands for nonassumptions unacceptable. There's far more evidence for the existence of Jesus and the authorship of the Gospels as being genuine than there is for abiogenesis and yet I'm almost certain that the vast majority of atheists on this forum who question these religious beliefs take that pop goes the weasel belief as indisputable and view it as scientifically sacrosanct.
 
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I also find the assumption of once a fisherman always a fisherman naive. People change, acquire skills. To deny that possibility is irrational. Even to deny the possibility that a fisherman can have other interests and skills besides fishing is irrational. It just doesn't jive with human nature.

So please no more caricaturing.

In short here is what we have:

Educated fisherman = impossible
Use of secretaries to dictate to= impossible
A person can acquire skills=impossible




Really? Wow!


Bible Accuracy
http://www.slsoftware.com/study/html_outlines/Accuracy_Of_The_Bible.html
 
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I also find the assumption of once a fisherman always a fisherman naive. People change, acquire skills. To deny that possibility is irrational. Even to deny the possibility that a fisherman can have other interests and skills besides fishing is irrational. It just doesn't jive with human nature.

So please no more caricaturing.

In short here is what we have:

Educated fisherman = impossible
Use of secretaries to dictate to= impossible
A person can acquire skills=impossible




Really? Wow!


Bible Accuracy
http://www.slsoftware.com/study/html_outlines/Accuracy_Of_The_Bible.html


I'll start with this one, because you obviously completely misunderstand the analysis.

The argument is not educated fisherman = impossible, but an educated fisherman in 1st century Judea where the literarcy rate (at best and among the wealthy) was 30% (probably closer to 10% at the time), is an extraordinarily unlikely find. Add to that, that said fisherman was specifically stated to be uneducated by the sources and we end up with -- John was almost assuredly uneducated.

It is not use of secretaries to dictate to = impossible, but that the work itself was the product of a highly educated individual, which, by the very sources you wish to use (namely Acts) did not include John. Assuming that John spoke through a secretary, this is not his work. It would be the work of the secretary. All the imagery and the strong emphasis on the logos would be introduced by the secretary, as it would be highly unlikely to have come from a lower class fisherman from the Galilee.

It is not a person can acquire skills = impossible, but it is highly unlikely that an uneducated fisherman (documented in the very sources you wish to use) would acquire later in life the extraordinary skill not only to write but to think primarily in Greek, which at best would have been a second language. And not just in the Greek language, but actually using Greek tropes, invoking the logos. And all this at a time when certain areas in the former Jewish kingdom considered it unlawful for fathers to instruct their sons in Greek philosophy and Greek ways.

You can try each of the strawman techniques of converting an argument for the unlikely into an argument for the impossible all you like. But it is what it is -- a tottering tower of straw.

If, at some point, you would like to discuss any of the ideas that I have actually expressed, please let me know, and we may proceed with an intelligent conversation.
 
It's not mentioned, it's implied.

Where? In what example? That you infer something does not mean that it was implied.


Glad you admit that the foundation of the discussion is based on a questioning of veracity. How does that jive with considering someone innocent until proven guilty?

Um, what? The foundation of skeptical enquiry is not to accept unquestioningly that for which there is not sufficient evidence.


Please take note that general consensus referrals as justification for conclusions reached is an appeal to bandwagon. It was the general consensus once among astronomers that the universe was geocentric, then it was the general consensus that it was heliocentric, then the general consensus was that our Milky Way was all there was. That galaxies were merely nebula, or cloudy formations within the Milky Way. The list of general consensuses is really almost limitless.

Um, the example given was not offered as proof, so your discussion in this matter is moot. The issue at hand is that the general consensus, based on evidence already supplied, of reputable biblical scholars is that the gospels were written anonymously.

Of course, bare appeal to authority, especially if offered as proof, is a logical fallacy. But that is not what I provided. I mentioned the scholarly consensus and the reasoning behind the conclusions of that consensus.

So, what is your point here?

The same applies to general consensuses in relation to the Bible and its veracity. Accusations began to fly left and right followed by discoveries which made the accusers eat crow. But I guess they liked the taste of crow since they simply hunkered down for the next attempt. Accusations of the existenvce of biblical personages, places, events only to be followed by admissions of being wrong only to be followed by a new barrage.
Have an explanation for this phenomenon?

I'm afraid that you are going to have to be a little more specific regarding your referrant here, since I have no idea what you are talking about here.

The societal consensus of authorship was based on hearsay evidence from a century after the fact when the church fathers insisted on apostolic tradition for any work to be included in the canon. There is plenty of room for suspicion right there. The rest of the analysis, which I offered only in brief, provides further evidence that we should be suspicious of the ascribed authorship.

Consensus afterwards was merely a continuing cultural artifact. No one was allowed, under possible penalty of death even to question such topics.

That's silly! First, it was an accepted custom to use secretaries in order to have things written down while the person dictated. The
Apostle Paul who was an educated man resorted to it. Changes in style can easily be explained by the changes in secretaries employed. Also, change of subject matter requires a shift of style and writers do that all the time. I do it myself when shifting from humor to poetry, to novel to short story. Take all my writings and you'll see a diversity which can be construed to mean that different authors were involved when it's just little ole wanamaker me.

BTW
It was once purported vehemently that Moses was illiterate or that he coulnb'd have been literate because writing wasn't invented yet during his days. That was later found to be a baseless accusation. So they hunkered down for the next attempt.


See my response to your other post above. You obviously do not understand my earlier statements.


I know that you aren't questioning that the gospels were written by disciples. Obviously the content makes the indisputable. Like saying that a pro evolution book isn't written by evolutionists. I'm sure no one can be that dense. What you are challenging is the
consensus held for the better part of 1,900 years as that they were written by the authors generally accepted as the authors. Namely, Matthew Mark Luke and John. Hope that clears up it up.


Yes, I too consider as strong proof that no one questioned a tradition when to do so meant death by fire. Now if that isn't proof, I don't know what is.



The Jews never questioned the existence of Jesus. Only his Messiahship. Care to explain why?


Um, what? Who is questioning the existence of Jesus? I have no clue why you even asked this question.


Because you assume to be true many things for which you have no evidence and take no umbrage unless the assumption has to do with the Bible and God. So your double standards makes your demands for nonassumptions unacceptable. There's far more evidence for the existence of Jesus and the authorship of the Gospels as being genuine than there is for abiogenesis and yet I'm almost certain that the vast majority of atheists on this forum who question these religious beliefs take that pop goes the weasel belief as indisputable and view it as scientifically sacrosanct.


Um, what? Again, who is questioning the existence of Jesus? Please provide the evidence -- the precise evidence and when it was provided historically -- regarding the authorship of the gospels. You obviously think that there is some excellent evidence which I don't know. I am always willing to be educated, so I would love to hear what evidence you have uncovered.

I assume abiogenesis is true without evidence? What? Do you have any idea what evidence would be considered support for that theory?

I have never once stated that abiogenesis is established fact. I have, in several threads, provided the evidence that strongly supports that conclusion. I do not assume that it is true. I believe that it is the most likely explanation based on the evidence that I have seen and that I have mentioned specifically to you in the past, and to which you did not respond. We are not talking bare assumptions here, but beliefs in the likelihood of events based on evidence.

If you have evidence that strongly supports who wrote the gospels, then I want to hear it. If you have evidence that negates the strong likelihood that abiogenesis is the right answer to the origin of life, then I would like to hear it.
 

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