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The usual bunch is not happy with WTC 7 report, suggest revision

ref

Master Poster
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
2,685
Guess who might be the ones? These guys:

James R. Gourley
Tony Szamboti
Richard Gage
Graeme MacQueen, Ph.D.
Dr. Steven Jones
Kevin Ryan
Chris Sarns
Kamal Obeid, SE PE
Scott Grainger, PE
Frank Legge
Bob Fischer
Justin Keogh
David Chandler
Gregg Roberts


Yawn. They are not happy with the WTC 7 report, which they said was false even before it was released.

Here are their complaints and suggested revisions: http://www.911blogger.com/node/17794

And you guessed it, they want therm(i/a)te.

The bunch said:
as documented by Kevin Ryan at the Journal of 9/11 Studies (http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/Ryan_NIST_and_Nano-1.pdf) many scientists working for and associated with NIST have experience with nanoenergetic compounds, or nanothermites, that have the potential to be used for building demolitions. And because nanothermites are primarily high-temperature incendiaries rather than explosives, they could cause damage to steel structures without producing the sound and destruction levels associated with RDX. Because NIST personnel have intimate experience with these materials, NIST should revise its report to specifically analyze whether such nanoenergetic materials could have been used as a component in a “hypothetical blast scenario” at WTC 7.


And let's not forget the usual nuttiness:

The bunch said:
In other words, foreknowledge of WTC 7’s collapse greatly strengthens our suspicions that the building was subjected to controlled demolition and that the knowledge of its demise derived ultimately from those who intended to bring it down.

The bunch said:
CNN and the BBC did not merely report that the building was damaged or that it might collapse; they prematurely announced its actual collapse.

CNN’s Aaron Brown, one hour and ten minutes in advance of the collapse: “We are getting information now that one of the other buildings, Building 7, in the World Trade Center complex, is on fire and has either collapsed or is collapsing...”

BBC anchor, 23 minutes before the collapse: “the Salomon Brothers Building in New York, right in the heart of Manhattan, has also collapsed.”
No satisfactory explanation has been forthcoming about these premature announcements, which were obviously based on data fed to these announcers.


The BBC continued to announce that WTC 7 had collapsed, even when the building could be seen standing directly behind reporter Jane Standley, for about 17 minutes until the story was pulled abruptly.


They rant for ages about the FDNY foreknowledge and describe with 7 points how this foreknowledge is so suspicious. Of course, not a word is mentioned about Daniel Nigro.

They also have one little and amusing contradiction.

The bunch said:
Specifically in NFPA 921 18.3.2 “High Order Damage” – “High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet. High-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.” WTC 7 clearly met this definition.


--- SNIP ---


The photos in the figures below show the collapsed WTC 7 to have its debris field confined to within a short distance of its footprint ... In addition to showing the relatively tight confinement of the debris field of WTC 7, the photo in Figure 2 also shows that debris from WTC 6 and WTC 5 was contained within their footprints or very nearby.

There is not a single letter by the truthers that does not contradict itself.


The entire letter is pretty long. Read it if you can.
 
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the bunch said:
CNN’s Aaron Brown, one hour and ten minutes in advance of the collapse: “We are getting information now that one of the other buildings, Building 7, in the World Trade Center complex, is on fire and has either collapsed or is collapsing...”

BBC anchor, 23 minutes before the collapse: “the Salomon Brothers Building in New York, right in the heart of Manhattan, has also collapsed.”
No satisfactory explanation has been forthcoming about these premature announcements, which were obviously based on data fed to these announcers.



Is it me, or did they just answer the question of where the BBC got the notion that WTC had already collapsed?

Did none of these people play the "telephone game" as a kid?
 
So where do we pick up our million dollars for predicting this one months ago?

TAM:)
 
More than anything, this shows the worthlessness of the twoof movement. "The usual suspects" list, if there was ANYTHING to their retarded claims, would have grown by leaps and bounds over the years.

Yet it doesn't. Just the same names promoting the same garbage with a few new bells and whistles to an ever-dwindling pack of lapdogs. If I didn't get such a sick pleasure out of laughing at idiocy I'd really feel sorry for the whole lot of them. :p
 
And because nanothermites are primarily high-temperature incendiaries rather than explosives, they could cause damage to steel structures without producing the sound and destruction levels associated with RDX.

But remember...."PEOPLE HEARD EXPLOSIONS!!! OMG INSIDE JOB!"

In other words, foreknowledge of WTC 7’s collapse greatly strengthens our suspicions that the building was subjected to controlled demolition and that the knowledge of its demise derived ultimately from those who intended to bring it down.

"...but, unfortunately, we're a band of complete cowards so we won't do the next logical thing and accuse the FDNY of blowing up WTC7."

I swear, the way twoofers block out the FDNY's forknowledge of WTC7's collapse really is a thing to behold.
 
I swear, the way twoofers block out the FDNY's forknowledge of WTC7's collapse really is a thing to behold.


This part of the paper deals with FDNY:

The usual said:
NIST has tried to evade the issue of foreknowledge of WTC’s collapse by implying:

(a) that the FDNY, on the scene, saw the damage to the building caused by the collapse of WTC 1 and rationally concluded that WTC 7 might collapse.

From NIST NCSTAR 1A, p.16:
“The emergency responders quickly recognized that WTC 7 had been damaged by the collapse of WTC 1...

As early as 11:30 a.m., FDNY recognized that there was no water coming out of the hydrant system to fight the fires that were visible. With the collapses of the towers fresh in their minds, there was concern that WTC 7 too might collapse...”

(b) that an engineer, early in the day, saw the damage to the building and concluded it might collapse, passing on this assessment to others (Lead Investigator Shyam Sunder, in a discussion with Graeme MacQueen on CKNX Radio, Wingham, Ontario, Aug. 25, 2008)

It is true that damage to WTC 7 was directly witnessed by some firefighters and led a few of them (about seven) to worry that the building might collapse, but the great majority (approximately 50) who were worried about collapse did not base this worry on what they perceived but on what they were told. (See Graeme MacQueen, “Waiting for Seven: WTC 7 Collapse Warnings in the FDNY Oral Histories”, Journal of 9/11 Studies, June 11, 2008) Moreover, while it is apparently also true that an engineer communicated his opinion, early in the day, that the building might collapse, neither this communication nor communications from the FDNY is sufficient to explain the evidence of foreknowledge that we possess.

Below are seven reasons why the above NIST explanations of foreknowledge are inadequate. One example is given to illustrate each of the seven reasons. More details can be found in the paper by Graeme MacQueen titled “Waiting for Seven: WTC 7 Collapse Warnings in the FDNY Oral Histories” published at the Journal of 9/11 Studies (http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200701/MacQueenWaitingforSeven...).

1. Certainty
To worry that a damaged building might collapse in some fashion is one thing; but to be certain that it will collapse is another. Detailed study of the accounts of the FDNY shows that over half of those who received warnings of WTC 7’s collapse (where degree of certainty can be determined from the reports) were certain or were told with certainty that it was coming down. (The figures are: 31 out of 58. See “Waiting for Seven”.)

2. Early announcement
If someone was observing the fires in WTC 7 and was able to determine, in the last few moments of the building’s existence, that a peculiar set of circumstances was beginning to threaten the building, that would be one thing; but to receive warnings of the building’s collapse well before this set of circumstances was in place raises far more suspicions. Yet a detailed study of the FDNY reports show that of the 33 cases where the time of warning can be determined, in ten cases warnings were received two or more hours in advance and in six cases warnings were apparently received four of more hours in advance. (See “Waiting for Seven.”) In other words, long, long before the unique set of circumstances had come together to cause the building’s collapse, the collapse was being spoken of widely.

3. Precision
If the collapse warnings derived from vague worries and concerns they would not have been precise. No building had come down from these causes before, and, in fact, complete collapse such as happened to WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 was very rare, apart from cases of controlled demolition. That is why FDNY member James McGlynn could say on 9/11, speaking of one of the Towers, "Any time I've heard of a collapse, it was never an entire building like this turned out to be." (See “Waiting for Seven.”) Yet, despite the rareness of complete collapse, many people apparently knew in advance that WTC 7 would be undergoing such a collapse. Consider the following from the FDNY oral histories:

Q. "Were you there when building 7 came down in the afternoon?"
A. "Yes."
Q. "You were still there?"
A. "Yes, so basically they measured out how far the building was going to come, so we knew exactly where we could stand."
Q. "So they just put you in a safe area, safe enough for when that building came down?"
A. "5 blocks. 5 blocks away. We still could see. Exactly right on point, the cloud stopped right there." (See “Waiting for Seven.”)

See how they make absolutely no sense.
 
Is it me, or did they just answer the question of where the BBC got the notion that WTC had already collapsed?

Did none of these people play the "telephone game" as a kid?
I'm fairly sure they got that information off Reuters (as per the Conspiracy Files on WTC7) who had picked it up from a local news source. Now what the news source was, is pretty much anyone's guess these days :confused:
 
It is true that damage to WTC 7 was directly witnessed by some firefighters and led a few of them (about seven) to worry that the building might collapse, but the great majority (approximately 50) who were worried about collapse did not base this worry on what they perceived but on what they were told.....

Right - told by other FDNY. So the problem facing the twoofers is still the same: the FDNY would have to be in on any CD plot.

To worry that a damaged building might collapse in some fashion is one thing; but to be certain that it will collapse is another.

If the FDNY thought it "might" collapse then would it not make sense for them to proceed on the assumption that it WILL and pull back from the area as a precaution? Makes sense to me.

Detailed study of the accounts of the FDNY shows that over half of those who received warnings of WTC 7’s collapse (where degree of certainty can be determined from the reports) were certain or were told with certainty that it was coming down.

Which I suppose means that the FDNY officials who told then must have known about the demolition, huh?

Yet, despite the rareness of complete collapse, many people apparently knew in advance that WTC 7 would be undergoing such a collapse.

Notice also that the FDNY didn't express shock at this collapse either - even though it was such a rare event.

I suppose they were smart enough to realize that rare circumstances can produce rare events.
 
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I'm fairly sure they got that information off Reuters (as per the Conspiracy Files on WTC7) who had picked it up from a local news source. Now what the news source was, is pretty much anyone's guess these days :confused:



Perhaps, but even if we didn't know that, wouldn't reading those two paragraphs at least make you wonder if the BBC was just misquoting the earlier CNN report? Why would they include this as evidence of something?


And they just keep getting worse:


3. Precision
If the collapse warnings derived from vague worries and concerns they would not have been precise. No building had come down from these causes before, and, in fact, complete collapse such as happened to WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 was very rare, apart from cases of controlled demolition. That is why FDNY member James McGlynn could say on 9/11, speaking of one of the Towers, "Any time I've heard of a collapse, it was never an entire building like this turned out to be." (See “Waiting for Seven.”) Yet, despite the rareness of complete collapse, many people apparently knew in advance that WTC 7 would be undergoing such a collapse. Consider the following from the FDNY oral histories:

Q. "Were you there when building 7 came down in the afternoon?"
A. "Yes."
Q. "You were still there?"
A. "Yes, so basically they measured out how far the building was going to come, so we knew exactly where we could stand."
Q. "So they just put you in a safe area, safe enough for when that building came down?"
A. "5 blocks. 5 blocks away. We still could see. Exactly right on point, the cloud stopped right there." (See “Waiting for Seven.”)


Have the never heard of a "worst-case scenario"?
 
I think the famous Mad Magazine credit each issue for it's contributing writers and artists is so apporpriate here:

The Usual Bunch Of Idiots.
 
I think the famous Mad Magazine credit each issue for it's contributing writers and artists is so apporpriate here:

The Usual Bunch Of Idiots.

"Gang of Idiots."
eng101.gif
 
This part of the paper deals with FDNY:
See how they make absolutely no sense.

And they never will :)

Just because I love to nit pick at them and you've brought it up:

NIST has tried to evade the issue of foreknowledge of WTC’s collapse by implying:
<snip>
...neither this communication nor communications from the FDNY is sufficient to explain the evidence of foreknowledge that we possess.

As Horatious elegantly put it, I suppose worst case scenario never enters their mind. I fail to see how the engineer and firefighter concerns over the worst case scenario bears foreknowledge of anything criminal. Firefighters clearly have enough foreknowledge to understand when a building is in danger of collapse or instability, and engineers know all too well how materials react to high temperature conditions... This isn't rocket science yet telling this crap to them is like trying to ram a train through the earth.


3. Precision
If the collapse warnings derived from vague worries and concerns they would not have been precise. No building had come down from these causes before, and, in fact, complete collapse such as happened to WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 was very rare, apart from cases of controlled demolition.
Non-sequitor to me... The only commonalities that the WTC collapses and CD's share is that the failure of structural members causes the building in question to collapse. They really love to generalize their BS as much as possible. Apart from structural failure the collapse mechanisms were entirely different and to assert the consequence due solely to appearance is absolute rubbish.

Perhaps, but even if we didn't know that, wouldn't reading those two paragraphs at least make you wonder if the BBC was just misquoting the earlier CNN report? Why would they include this as evidence of something?
Liez! Considering possibilities other than foreknowledge is considered blasphemy! Shame on yoooooo!!! Damn critical thinkers ruin the twoofer fun! :mad:



And they just keep getting worse:


Have the never heard of a "worst-case scenario"?
Is it even possible to get any worse off than their arguments already are and have been for the last 7 years? :eye-poppi
 
I didn’t read the report, but I watched the press conference on CSPAN.
It seems to me the way they investigated the collapse of WTC 7 was using computer simulation. They kept feeding various scenarios into their computer model until they got something similar to the filmed collapse.
 
If the FDNY thought it "might" collapse then would it not make sense for them to proceed on the assumption that it WILL and pull back from the area as a precaution? Makes sense to me.


I'd love to see the conversation these idiots would have over a recall notice for their vehicle, especially if they ignored it and the problem described manifested itself.

"But, but... they only said that the steering column MIGHT detach from the interior mounting bracket, not that it WOULD detach! The fact that they sent me a recall notice means that they must have known that I would crash!"
 
I didn’t read the report, but I watched the press conference on CSPAN.
It seems to me the way they investigated the collapse of WTC 7 was using computer simulation. They kept feeding various scenarios into their computer model until they got something similar to the filmed collapse.

I recommend that you read the report.
 
Liez! Considering possibilities other than foreknowledge is considered blasphemy! Shame on yoooooo!!! Damn critical thinkers ruin the twoofer fun! :mad:


You're right, you're right! How could I have suggested otherwise? I shall prostrate myself before my poster of Alfred E. Newman Dylan Avery for two hours before I go to bed, but after I've drunk a few six-packs.



Is it even possible to get any worse off than their arguments already are and have been for the last 7 years? :eye-poppi



It doesn't seem possible, but they keep defying expectations!
 
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There is not a single letter by the truthers that does not contradict itself.

Actually, if you give these passages a fair reading, they are not contradictory. The first mention of debris refers to very small, pulverized debris, that would result from explosives. That kind of debris, the dust cloud, did indeed get blown hundreds of feet away from the building. The second mention of debris is referring to a photograph of the larger pieces left over. These larger pieces were, in fact, confined to a very small space above the building's original footprint. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to give the document a fair reading. After all:

The entire letter is pretty long. Read it if you can.

You chose to highlight one of the two issues that were raised about information that the authors contended was omitted from the NIST report. The vast majority of the criticisms raised in the document identified contradictions and outright falsehoods contained within the actual substance of the document. I guess it is easier to bring out your standard issue B.S. responses to issues that have already been covered here before, like foreknowledge. Whatever you do, don't contribute any original thinking here. It would probably take too much effort.

If you want to have a real discussion about this set of public comments, let's start with Chapter 9, and work our way down. Since it's apparent no one here has actually gone and read the entire document (again, why be bothered with original thinking when Ref has posted something everyone has already thought about), I'll copy the portion about Chapter 9. Rebuttals to the points raised are most welcome.

Chapter 9: Fire Simulations

Contradictions between Floor 12 Fire Simulations and Other Evidence

Figure 9-11 from NCSTAR 1-9 (page 383) depicts the upper layer air temperatures on the 12th floor fire simulation. As can be seen therein, significant fires are present across at least half of the north face of the building at 5:00pm.

This part of the fire simulation presents two problems. First, it contradicts an earlier report issued by NIST regarding the fires on floor 12. Second, it contradicts NIST’s own photographic evidence of the fire activity on floor 12.

COMMENT: Appendix L to NIST’s June 2004 “Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center” contains NIST’s “Interim Report on WTC 7”. (See http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf) On page L-26 of this interim report, NIST states that “Around 4:45 p.m., a photograph showed fires on Floors 7, 8, 9, and 11 near the middle of the north face; Floor 12 was burned out by this time.”

REASON FOR COMMENT: The contrast between NIST’s prior assertion that floor 12 was “burned out” by 4:45pm, and NIST’s current computer model, that shows a raging inferno at 5:00pm, could not be more apparent. This discrepancy calls into question the veracity of the Report.

SUGGESTED REVISION: This discrepancy must be acknowledged and explained in the Report. Furthermore, the photographic or other visual evidence NIST relied upon for its statement in Appendix L that floor 12 was burned out by 4:45pm must be included in the final version of its report.

COMMENT: To support NIST’s assertion that there was indeed fire present on floor 12 at 5:00pm, NIST has provided a single photograph from an “unknown source” (Figure 5-152, NCSTAR 1-9, p. 237), that was purportedly taken at around 5:00pm, and shows fire in the two windows that comprise the northwest corner. NIST contends that it has determined that this photograph was taken at approximately 5:00pm, with a margin of error of “at least 10 minutes,” using shadow analysis.

REASON FOR COMMENT: We find it unlikely that NIST could estimate the time the “unknown source” photograph in Figure 5-152 was taken with such accuracy.

SUGGESTED REVISION: NIST must explain how it was able to estimate the photograph’s time using shadow analysis to a margin of error even close to 10 minutes.

COMMENT: The following graphic is excerpted from Figure 9-11, and purports to describe the state of the fires on the 12th floor of WTC 7 at 5:00pm:


As can be seen, this graphic depicts raging fires across at least half of the north face of the building. However, when compared with Figure 5-152, which only shows a small fire in the extreme northwest corner, clearly the computer model is not representative of reality.

REASON FOR COMMENT: It appears that NIST’s computer fire simulations are not representative at all of the fires actually occurring in WTC 7.

SUGGESTED REVISION: NIST needs to describe why (assuming Figure 5-152 accurately describes the floor 12 fires at about 5:00pm) the computer models show significant fires across at least half of the north side of the building at 5:00pm. NIST should clearly explain why its fire simulation models of the 12th floor should be accepted by the public as an accurate representation of the fires actually occurring in WTC 7.

Separately submitted by Chris Sarns and Richard Gage is a graphic that compares NIST’s computer model fire data for floor 12 with actual pictures of the fires in WTC 7. It is attached hereto as Exhibit A. They present a more realistic depiction of what a computer model for the floor 12 fires should look like if it were to agree with the available visual evidence. NIST should take this into consideration when they are re-running their computer models based on these public comments, and revise their Report to use computer models that are more representative of reality, which would look more like the depictions contained therein.

Combustible Fuel Loading on Floors 11 and 12

COMMENT: This comment relates to NIST’s assumptions regarding combustible fuel loading for the 11th and 12th floors. In NCSTAR 1-9, at p. 375 (para. 1, sent. 7-9) NIST states:

NIST assumed that the combustible mass of furniture was about the same in an office as in a cubicle. Since the loading of other combustibles was reported to have been high on the 11th and 12th floors (Chapter 3), NIST assumed that the total combustible mass in an office was double that of a cubicle. Thus, the average combustible fuel load on the 11th and 12th floors was estimated as 32kg/m2.

However, Chapter 3 tells us that, contrary to NIST’s assertions in Chapter 9, the loading of other combustibles was not reported to have been high on the 11th and 12th floors. On page 55 (para. 6, sent. 1) of NCSTAR 1-9, NIST reports that the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission occupied the 11th and 12th floors and the north side of the 13th floor. On page 56 (para. 1, sent. 1) NIST further reports that American Express occupied the southwest sector of the 13th floor. On the same page, NIST reports that the “combustible load in the offices was described as high by interviewed American Express managers.” (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 56, para. 4, sent. 3)

REASON FOR COMMENT: Recall that American Express occupied only the southwest sector of the 13th floor. How, then can NIST credibly claim that the combustible load on the entirety of the 11th and 12 floors, both occupied solely by the SEC, was reported to have been high? Were American Express managers given regular access to the SEC offices, such that they would be qualified to comment on the combustible fuel load there? Moreover, are American Express managers qualified to give an opinion on the quantity of combustible fuel load as compared to offices in the Twin Towers?

SUGGESTED REVISION: Clearly American Express personnel are competent to provide information only on the state of the American Express offices, which were confined to the southwest sector of the 13th floor. NIST must provide real support for its assertion that the combustible load on the 11th and 12th floors was high in order to merit any increase in estimated average combustible fuel load on these floors. If it cannot provide such support, it should re-run its computer models with the lower combustible fuel load on these floors and report those results to the scientific community and the American public.

Combustible Fuel Loading on Floor 13

COMMENT: This comment is regarding NIST’s treatment of the combustible fuel load of the 13th floor. On page 375 of NCSTAR 1-9 (para. 1, sent. 8, 9) NIST states as follows: “The density of combustibles on the 13th floor was varied and not well known. The average value [for the 13th floor] was assumed to be the same as the 12th floor.” Here again, the only reported description of the combustible load on the 13th floor was from American Express managers, who were competent to comment only on the southwest sector of the 13th floor. In Chapter 3 of NCSTAR 1-9, page 57 (para. 2, sent. 2, 3) NIST reports that in the SEC occupied sections of northern perimeter of the 13th floor were “a hearing room and multiple testimony rooms facing it. There were additional testimony rooms on the northern portion of the east and west sides of the floor, and a storage room at the northwest corner.”

Importantly, NIST reports that the “testimony rooms were sparsely furnished, with just a table and a few chairs.” (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 57, para. 2, sent. 4) Furthermore, an examination of the schematic diagram of floor 13 (Figure 3-8, p. 57) reveals that the hearing room appears similar to a court room. Court rooms are also sparsely furnished, with a few tables and chairs. Finally, it is doubtful that there was any appreciable level of additional combustibles present in these testimony and hearing rooms.

REASON FOR COMMENT: NIST has apparently greatly overestimated the fuel loading on the 13th floor.

SUGGESTED REVISION: NIST must justify its use of the higher combustible fuel load on the 13th floor in Chapter 9 of the Report with more than just bare assertions. NIST clearly had more information available to it regarding the layout and make up of floor 13, as reported in Chapter 3, than it lets on in Chapter 9. This discrepancy must be reconciled.

Combustible Load Sensitivity Tests

COMMENT: NIST claims that it did sensitivity tests to determine whether these exorbitant combustible fuel loads adversely affected the outcome of its simulations. However, the fact that NIST even performed the sensitivity tests brings up the question of why NIST went to the trouble of increasing the fuel load in the first place if it would have a negligible effect on the simulation. That point aside, Chapter 9 contains statements that directly contradict the results of these alleged sensitivity tests.

On page 381 of NCSTAR 1-9 (para. 3, sent. 3) NIST flatly states that, in its fire simulations for the 12th floor, “[t]he [fire] spread rate was about one-third to one-half slower than that on the lower floors due to the higher fuel load [on the 12th floor simulation].” NIST goes on to report that the burn time across the north face in the simulation was longer than observed in the visual evidence. (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 381, para. 3, sent. 4) NIST then rejects the possibility that this could have resulted from the fuel load being too high, citing the sensitivity analysis in Section 9.3.3. (para. 3, sent. 4-8)

In Section 9.3.3, we find the referenced sensitivity analysis. Here, NIST reports that doubling the fuel load on the 8th floor resulted in the fires moving distinctly more slowly than in the visual evidence. (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 382, para. 5, sent. 1-3) Confusingly, NIST also reports that decreasing the fuel load by more than one-third on floor 12 “showed little effect on the rate of fire progression.” (Id., para. 6, sent. 1-3)

REASON FOR COMMENT: NIST’s contradictory statements raise the question of why reducing the fuel load by more than one-third would show no appreciable effect on the fire rate of progression on the 12th floor, when doubling the fuel load on the 8th floor did result in an appreciable change.

SUGGESTED REVISION: NIST should explain here exactly what the differences in the fire progression rate were in each case and let the public judge whether the effect was “little”. More important, however, is the direct contradiction between NIST’s statement that the “spread rate was about one-third to one-half slower than that on lower floors due to the higher fuel load” (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 381, para. 3, sent. 3) with its statement that decreasing the fuel load to a value equal to that of the lower floors “showed little effect on the fire rate of progression.” (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 382, para. 6, sent. 1-3) Surely NIST can see this direct contradiction. On page 381, it is claimed that higher fuel load slows down the fire spread rate. On page 382, it is claimed that a lower fuel load will not speed up the rate of fire progression. This contradiction must be reconciled.

Fire Simulations for Floors 11 and 13

NIST used the data generated by its 12th floor fire simulation for floors 11 and 13. (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 382, para. 1, 3) The 13th floor simulation used the 12th floor data delayed by one-half hour because visual evidence indicated that the 13th floor fire followed the 12th floor fire. (Id., para. 3, sent. 5) The 11th floor simulation used the 12th floor fire data delayed by 1 hour, although the visual evidence indicated that the 11th floor fire was delayed from the 12th floor fire by 1.5 hours. (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 382, para. 1, sent. 5)

COMMENT: Our first comment in this regard simply notes the discrepancy between the visual evidence that the 11th floor fire was delayed from the 12th floor fire by 1.5 hours, yet in its fire simulations for the 11th floor, it was only delayed from the 12th floor fire by 1.0 hour.

REASON FOR COMMENT: This represents yet another discrepancy in the Report that needs to be rectified.

SUGGESTED REVISION: NIST must explain why the visual evidence was not relied upon for inputs on the 11th floor, when it was relied upon for inputs on the 13th floor. The computer models should be re-run with the 11th floor fire delayed by 1.5 hours, not 1.0 hour, and the results reported accordingly.

COMMENT: Our second comment concerns both the 11th and 13th floor fires. As we demonstrated above, the 12th floor fire simulation is not representative of reality, and likely grossly overestimates the fires that were present there. By using its grossly overestimated 12th floor fire data on both the 11th and 13th floors, it has magnified this error three-fold.

REASON FOR COMMENT: By magnifying an obvious error by three times, the results of all of NIST’s subsequent computer models are again called into question.

SUGGESTED REVISION: The computer models should be re-run for the 12th floor using more realistic fire scenarios, and if NIST can still justify using the 12th floor data on the 11th and 13th floors, it should use that more realistic data on both floors. The results should then be reported accordingly.

COMMENT: Our third comment concerns the propagation of error through NIST’s approach to using a purely computer model driven approach. On page 382 of NCSTAR 1-9 (para. 1-3, sent. last) NIST acknowledges that its computer models for the fires on floors 11 and 13 “could have led to a mild overestimate of the heating on the north side of the floor.”

REASON FOR COMMENT AND SUGGESTED REVISION: In order to assure public confidence in the document, NIST must explain how such an error in overestimating the heating would propagate itself throughout all of NIST’s subsequent computer models, and how such propagation of error will affect the reliability of the ultimate results. The Report should be revised to include such a propagation of error analysis.

Be advised, there are references to the actual report, paragraph and sentence. It might take you actually going to the report and reading some surrounding materials for context. This document was written for an audience comprised of people that actually drafted the report, and would know immediately what issues were being raised. So, it might take a little more effort for the readers here to get a good understanding of the issues before commenting.
 

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