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Do Most Atheists Know that science..... Part 2

DOC said:
Actually, I have a college degree, and did take a physics course in high school and an astronomy course in college.
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Anyone can take a course; did you pay attention? Seriously, I don't know how you could be unaware of what appear to have been recent revelations to you.

Anyway, we haven't really advanced, we're back to the OP and your incredulity which we dealt with a few pages back.
 
I guess the key here is, most of us learn these things when scientists write about them.

DOC doesn't learn them until the concept gets worked into someone's book on Christian Apologetics.
 
DOC said:
Actually, I have a college degree, and did take a physics course in high school and an astronomy course in college.
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Then you wasted your time and money, I'm afraid.

I'm not being judgmental, but simply pointing out that if you failed to learn such basic material, then you were an incredibly poor student or the class was unbelievably badly taught. It's akin to someone coming out of a course on biology not knowing what a mammal is, or someone coming out of a course on piano performance not being able to find middle C.
 
drkitten said:
Then you wasted your time and money, I'm afraid.

I'm not being judgmental, but simply pointing out that if you failed to learn such basic material, then you were an incredibly poor student or the class was unbelievably badly taught. It's akin to someone coming out of a course on biology not knowing what a mammal is, or someone coming out of a course on piano performance not being able to find middle C.
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Not to mention, as others have mentioned, this stuff is taught in primary school (I learnt about the basics of the Big Bang, including that it in no way said matter exploded into pre-extant space, aged around 8 or 9).

How on earth can someone manage to get through not only primary school science, high school physics and then, and I'm incredulous at this, college level tertiary astronomy and not learnt the fundamental basic fact at the heart of the Big Bang theory.

You need to let me buy you Singh's book, Doc.
 
Actually, to be a bit fair to DOC, there are people who may have sat through physics, and even a core course in Astronomy, and haven't thought through, or even bothered to learn, many of the basics. This ties back to the comments by Fiona and bokonon earlier in the thread in that there may be people who were taught this, and either forgot or just DIDN'T CARE. You can tell them about relativity, and they will continue to NOT CARE. It just doesn't matter to them at all.

Of course, it still doesn't have anything to do with theism, or the likelihood that Genesis got anything right.
 
Hokulele said:
Actually, to be a bit fair to DOC, there are people who may have sat through physics, and even a core course in Astronomy, and haven't thought through, or even bothered to learn, many of the basics.
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And you don't consider such behavior to be a waste of time and money?
 
DOC said:
Actually, I have a college degree, and did take a physics course in high school and an astronomy course in college.
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I'm sorry, I hugely struggle to believe that. Despite an interest in science, my academic background is mostly in the arts. But I knew the basics of BBT when I was about 10, and certainly had a grasp of the concepts of it which seem to be a surprise to you by the time I was in my mid-teens.

And that was solely from interest-driven reading on the topic.

How on earth do you manage to complete all you claimed and only now find out these revelations?

If what you say is true, maybe your problem is that you assume everyone else thinks the same as you. What evidence do you have to support that? Given that you apparently made it through an astronomy course without picking up the most basic facts about BBT, what makes you think that anything else you believe (for example - your estimation of "90%") is correct?
 
drkitten said:
And you don't consider such behavior to be a waste of time and money?
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I absolutely consider it as such. However, with the emphasis on higher education as the path to success, and with most institutions requiring core competency in a variety of fields, it is inevitable that some students will end up wasting time. Or napping.

For example, look at the "Rocks for Jocks" geology classes at many major universities designed to fufill the science requirement for the non-science minded. The school I attended (way back when) had a similar astronomy class as a core science offering.
 
90% of people are profoundly ignorant? Not. 90% of your religious friends, perhaps, but even that I find hard to believe. But maybe, if they are like you( I will take your word that you made it past High School), they were exposed to actual knowledge and simply chose to ignore it.
 
DOC said:
People in general. I'd say at least 90% (and that's being conservative) don't realize that modern science theorizes that all matter and "all space" did not exist before the the so called Big Bang. They might have known about all matter coming out of the Big Bang. But over 90% percent (according to my estimate) do not know that all "space" began at the theorized Big Bang also. In other words, I think it would be a big surprise to them to realize there was no "space" before the Big Bang event according to Big Bang theory.
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Christians in general, I'd say at least 93.14159% (and that's being conservative) don't realize that ancient bible stories propose that "night" and "day" and "earth" existed for three days before the so called sun, moon, and stars were created. They might have known about talking serpents, and women coming out of the Big Sleep. But over 93.14159% percent (according to my estimate) do not know that all "celestial objects" began on day four, after the earth had continents and oceans and days and nights and corn and wheat and kumquats. In other words, I think it would be a big surprise to them to realize there was no "sun" until three cycles of day and night events according to Genesis narratives.
 
bokonon said:
Christians in general, I'd say at least 93.14159% (and that's being conservative) don't realize that ancient bible stories propose that "night" and "day" and "earth" existed for three days before the so called sun, moon, and stars were created. They might have known about talking serpents, and women coming out of the Big Sleep. But over 93.14159% percent (according to my estimate) do not know that all "celestial objects" began on day four, after the earth had continents and oceans and days and nights and corn and wheat and kumquats. In other words, I think it would be a big surprise to them to realize there was no "sun" until three cycles of day and night events according to Genesis narratives.
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Night and Day implies the sun and stars already existed. Also Genesis 1;1 implies the stars and earth already existed. And earlier I brought in a website that discussed how a continuous cloud cover and/or vocanic ash could have blocked out the sun and the stars. In the area I live in, I've went several weeks without seeing the sun or stars because of cloud cover.

If this was the case (about the cloud/vocanic cover) do you want God to lie about it in order to make it easier for some Christians to explain 2 thousand years later to a few non-believers.

ETA Just because something can't be explained (or is difficult to explain) doesn't mean there isn't an explanation. Just because we don't know the cause of some cancers, doesn't mean there isn't a cause.
 
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DOC said:
Some would say that this evidence leads to a Creator. For example the famous scientist and Nobel Prize winner George Smoot said:

"There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing."
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A parallel does exist, yes. Both suggest that before there was something, there wasn't. But there, I'm afraid, the similarities pretty much end.

I'd also like to find out the context in which Smoot said this. It doesn't appear on the Quote Mine Project, but it sounds pretty suspicious regardless. DOC, do you have a source for the quote?
 
DOC said:
Night and Day implies the sun and stars already existed. Also Genesis 1;1 implies the stars and earth already existed. And earlier I brought in a website that discussed how a continuous cloud cover and/or vocanic ash could have blocked out the sun and the stars. In the area I live in, I've went several weeks without seeing the sun or stars because of cloud cover.

If this was the case (about the cloud/vocanic cover) do you want God to lie about it in order to make it easier for some Christians to explain 2 thousand years later to a few non-believers.

ETA Just because something can't be explained (or is difficult to explain) doesn't mean there isn't an explanation. Just because we don't know the cause of some cancers, doesn't mean there isn't a cause.
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um..
joobz said:
So DOC, do you agree that theorys/hypotheses which can not be tested and use post hoc rationalization to fit the data would be classified as bad science?


I wonder what other theories we have which would fit that classification?
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DOC said:
Night and Day implies the sun and stars already existed. Also Genesis 1;1 implies the stars and earth already existed. And earlier I brought in a website that discussed how a continuous cloud cover and/or vocanic ash could have blocked out the sun and the stars. In the area I live in, I've went several weeks without seeing the sun or stars because of cloud cover.

If this was the case (about the cloud/vocanic cover) do you want God to lie about it in order to make it easier for some Christians to explain 2 thousand years later to a few non-believers.

ETA Just because something can't be explained (or is difficult to explain) doesn't mean there isn't an explanation. Just because we don't know the cause of some cancers, doesn't mean there isn't a cause.
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You are obviously part of the 93.14159% percent of Christians (by my estimate) who don't know that according to Genesis 1:14, it was day 4 when God "made two great lights -- the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars."

93.14159% percent of Christians might think there were clouds and dust and the two great lights and the stars were revealed on day 4, but that's not what Genesis says. Who would he be revealing them to? The wheat and corn and oranges and kumquats? The eyeball life wasn't made until day 5, according to Genesis. Most Christians (93.14159% percent, by my estimate) don't even know this. They would sure be surprised if they read Genesis!
 
Actually, I have a college degree, and did take a physics course in high school and an astronomy course in college.
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Did you go to Oral Roberts University then? Or maybe Bob Jones University?

Because even at Baylor they teach evolution in the biology classes, and I bet they teach the Big Bang in the physics classes.
 
Night and Day implies the sun and stars already existed.
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So that leaves:

1) Sun and stars were created twice
2) Day 4 did not follow day 3.
3) You're wrong.
4) The Bible is wrong.

Which do you want?
 
DOC said:
No, I didn't realize there was no "empty space" before the theorized Big Bang until I read it in the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist".
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DOC said:
Actually, I have a college degree, and did take a physics course in high school and an astronomy course in college.
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Thank you for these honest admissions Doc. I realise they must have been embarrassing for you to make.
 
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Hokulele said:
I absolutely consider it as such. However, with the emphasis on higher education as the path to success, and with most institutions requiring core competency in a variety of fields, it is inevitable that some students will end up wasting time. Or napping.

For example, look at the "Rocks for Jocks" geology classes at many major universities designed to fufill the science requirement for the non-science minded. The school I attended (way back when) had a similar astronomy class as a core science offering.
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(OT. I appologise)

I fail to understand the American education system. How on earth are people allowed into university without a grasp of the basics? A friend of mine in America is having to take science and english courses despite being an Advertising/PR student.

Why on earth are these things not covered earlier in the school process? Why must it wait until University for there to be a class in basic grammar?

I fail to get it.


Back ON topic, may I register my utter shock at DOC not knowing that there was no such thing (effectively) as space before the Big Bang?

I mean wow. You took a physics class and didn't know THAT?
 
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