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AA77 FDR Data, Explained

Seeing that TF has been on my ignore list (which ALL OF YOU should be doing) i dont know why this thread has ballooned to nearly 50 pages, with the SAME stuff that WAS COVERED BEFORE.

He's not hear to learn. he's hear to cause trouble, as he's been doing. He is not serious.

At this point in time, if a "troofer" like TF shows up, all we should be asking is for his EVIDENCE and stop engaging these frauds in a debate of words.

YOu want evidence? Here's evidence that one of your leaders "Beachnut" is a
washed up has-been that knows nothing about DME, or flight systems:

http://procision-auto.com/911/911_dme_ntsb.jpg
__________________http://procision-auto.com/911/911_dme_ntsb2.jpg

Oh noooos Beachnut?! DME is sampled at four second intervals!?
All of your JREF buddies are in disbelief because PFT proved you wrong?

Oh nooos!

Wait, here's the CSV file. Download it. Check it for yourselves!

http://procision-auto.com/911/911_tab_file3.jpg

NTSB FAR Part 121, look it up.

Research

Facts

Beachnut has been exposed.

Do I have your attention yet?

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Hotlinks removed
 
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Make no mistake, the members at PFT have more than just pilot backgrounds.

Rob is a very sharp man and has excellent resources at his disposal. The people involved researching and studying the FDR data have all the necessary skills, unlikethe faceless cowards here.
Yes John Lear makes up stories of aliens, and the rest lack evidence to even warrant a new investigation. A paranoid anti-government group of fact less fantasy weavers.

Rob is sharp, I have never seen physics destroyed better than Capt Bob did. http://pilotsfor911truth.org/descent_rate031308.html An error still in place in spite of many people showing the correct solution! Sharp!?

But you said
Actual Flash Memory used in AA77's FDR FA2100 CSMU
2005.8 Intel 128 Mbit Strata Flash Memory, Intel Part Number TE28F128J3C-150 (3V)

What year did 77 first fly?
What year was 77's FDR installed?
What year this chip was first released? TE28F128J3C-150 ?

Did I miss where the experts at p4t answered these questions, or are you wrong again. Sharp Capt Bob must be able to help you; what year was the chip first introduced?
 
I'll get that info for you. As far as I'm aware, it was a copy of the press
release and animation stating the errors found.

The following link provides details to PFT stance on the NTSB released data.
Opening comments and narrative should answer your question :
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?do...8Eqbg-gGi1syDDQ&q=flight+of+American+77&hl=en

Which of course does not address my question about the detailed technical paper in which PfT concludes that the flight path recorded on the FDR does not match the one illustrated by the physical evidence on the ground. Sorry TF, cartoons with solemn music don't cut it in that regard.




The animation describes why PFT finds the data in error. Have you seen
the animation?

I watched the original PB. I am watching PB reloaded now.

Jaydee, after all of these years don't you think it's time for the NTSB, or
whomever is responsible for correcting the 'working copy' to give the
public what they deserve?

No one has yet properly asked anyone to correct anything.
I am satisfied that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon killing all on board and several people in the building. Its up to those who, for whatever reason, do not believe that occured to properly ask (not make accusations of treason and utter threats, not produce a press release and a video with commentary but a true technical description of the steps taken by PfT that lead them to the conclusion that the FDR data does not conform to the accepted flight path of flight 77 as illustrated by the line of damage on the ground.

You can't blame me, or the truth movement for questioning the data, and
inconsistent stories, and damage claims. It just doesn't add ip.

Then get on with it and stop agrueing endlessly with internet experts who you simply do not recognize as being experts anyway. Why do you continue the spinning your wheels here?

We are not the people providing the data. We are finding the errors.
This is something government loyalists seem to forget

Then get on with it and stop debating internet experts and "government loyalists " who you hold in ill repute and consider to be stupid anyway. Present L3, the NTSB, the FBI, ICAO, all pilot's unions, Aviation Week and Space Technology, Scientific American, Discover, Technology Review and anyone else you can think of with
a detailed and purely technical paper in which PfT shows the steps it took that lead it to conclude that the flight path recorded on the FDR does not match the one illustrated by the physical evidence on the ground.


Forget the NTSB animation, it has been explained how the ground was added later and can be incorrect which leads to the plane being in the wrong place at the end of the animation.

Until you manage to get a recognized FDR expert organization to review your work it stands up there with cold fusion.
 
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We must be smarter because I've already listed qualifications at least four times.

You have listed the qualifications of the PfT members. what you have failed to do is list qualifications that make any of them experts in FDR analysis.

Does believeing in moobases and submarine tunnels in the desert make one an expert on FDR analysis? Perhaps the simple act of being a pilot is what makes one an FDR analysis expert? It certainly can be shown that being a pilot does not make a person an expert in math or physics. In fact being a pilot makes one an expert in just that, piloting an aircraft.
So do you have anyone who does FDR analysis as a part of their normal job description in that list?
 
I'm glad that you've risen above the childish behavior here, and not returned the insults and slurs in like fashion. Otherwise, someone might get the impression that you have nothing substantial to say.
This reflects well on your cause.
 
Jaydee,

Like I said, this is not my (or the truth movement's) sole outlet to get the word out,
and debate issues.

I just happen to be at a desk with a computer and some time to kill. This is
something I enjoy doing (debating).

Sorry to say, but we have hit many brick walls getting even the slightest
response from our intended media outlets. You can't get blood from a stone,
but that's not going to keep is from trying other methods.

I respect your belief, and I respect your civil debates. I wish more of the
members here would communicate like you do.

With Kucinich putting on a strong campaign, and other members of parliament
calling for impeachment and new investigations, we feel the word is getting
out. There are signs of the facts getting to more people as new organizations
are coming forth.

Be it a little late, I don't believe it's ever too little.
 
Wow, you are thick and clueless.

You think the DME value at 300 knots is going to be the same for FOUR,
one second samples, and then magically JUMP from 17 to 16.2 to 14.7 to 12.7 nm!

Double WOW!

Like I already explained, each DME receiver updates at four second intervals
and the frame data holds the last known value until the next sample.

This is shown in the CSV file, and outlined in the spec!

DME is polled every four seconds according to the NTSB and FAR part 121 !

LOOK IT UP!

Beachnut is trying to win a battle that he lost LONG before hitting "submit reply"
Turbofan says FOUR seconds. Here are many seconds on ONE reciever and the values as 77 gets closer to DC each second. FOUR seconds

Yep FOUR seconds the values should be stable for 4 seconds and a new value each FOUR seconds but we have hap hazard updated, the p4t never look at the data, they make up LIES. Like 4 seconds. Good Job Turbofan, the make up the story, forget the data. The plan is moving almost .1 NM a second! The data alone proves you wrong! But thanks for calling me names as you prove you are not good at research. Look at the data young gullible p4t guy. Did you look at the data?

I asked when is the DME updated, with a new value, not the seconds between sampling intervals. When is the DME updated to reflect the real DME at a moment in time?

Based on the samples above a new real position DME value is not posted every 4 seconds. Oops.

What is the accuracy of the DME? What is the resolution? You can use 121, if you want!

This mainly has a bearing on the final 1.5 DME to prove 77 can be over 5 seconds away from the Pentagon.

Is the FDR of 77 violating FAR 121 with the above DME samples? Yes or NO. And WHY?
 
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With Kucinich putting on a strong campaign, and other members of parliament
calling for impeachment and new investigations, we feel the word is getting
out. There are signs of the facts getting to more people as new organizations
are coming forth.

Be it a little late, I don't believe it's ever too little.


Are you saying that members of the Canadian Parliament are calling for the impeachment of Bush?
 
We must be smarter because I've already listed qualifications at least four times.

Is everyone on this forum blind, and/or illiterate?

One piece of evidence huh? Blind again? You obviously skipped over the
lists of questions and anomalies in my replies a dozen times :rolleyes:

BTW; Do you see how I wrecked Beachnut and his understanding of
DME about three times already? I sure hope Reheat and Anti can do better!

No you did not. You simply listed the general qualifications for the members. Maybe you should learn to read before you call people blind dumb and illiterate. Let me post the question in capitol letters for you:

WHAT EXPERIENCE DO THE MEMBERS OF PFT HAVE IN REGARDS TO FDR RECORDERS.

Now read VERY carefully. Because the question does not stop at asking what their qualifications are in general. Notice the ending of the sentence. You might have to look VERY carefully. Try to take it one word at a time if the entire sentence is too much to manage. Notice the part being specific about FDR recorders? OK, that means that the question is referring to FDR recorders, hence using the term FDR recorders. It does not ask if the members are pilots or mechanics, or cheerleaders. Now, if you have to read the sentence several times before you understand it, that it sinfe. We will wait. I do recommend however that maybe you should share the question with all the members of PFT and that way maybe between all of you, you will be able to understand the question. It seems that on your own you just aren't able to understand the question. And this is probably about the 16th time you have been asked and still fail to answer the question.

Turbo, is this whole tough guy cute routine a coping mechanism to make up for your inability to read a simple question and provide an answer. I mean not just an answer, but an answer to the actual question? If you need a tutor, we can help, don't be afraid kiddo.

And no brainiac, I did NOT skip over your anaomilies. BUT you probably didn't stop to think about them and notice they are all confined to one small area and they are all dependent on some MAJOR assumptions. A perfect example is your claim that the light poles could not have been knowked down because of the data on the FDR. But what you don't relaize is that the lightpoles being knocked down by the plane prove that your interpretation of the data i wrong. And all the experts agree on this. Yet you don't have a single expert on your team. Which is pretty funny considering how your only real argument is calling the experts incompitent.

And wow, look at you. A network engineer. WOOOPPATEEEDOOOO!!!!. Yeah, we're goign to go by what a little networking engineer with absolutely ***NO*** experience in FDRs and who is intentionally dismissing ALL other evidence, over REAL experts who do this for a living and know what they are talking about.

You see little tough guy, this is what REAL investigators do. They look at ALL the evidence. They don't start with a pre-determined conclusion and work backwards like the clowns over at PFT. You know the clowns who leave it at "hey man, we're just asking questions and we just want a new investigation. Pass the weed man". We rely on real investigations that actually follow through and look at all the data and put it all together because they know each piece of data on its own may not be reliable.

Just like the loons over at CIT, this is just another way of taking one portion of evidence and using it to dismiss all the rest. And the fact that some of your arguments are simply the ones from CIT is WHY you and your brain trust are NOT taken seriously.


Answer this in addition to my original question. What did the media and the authorities say when you showed them your presentation? Forget about pretending you "wrecked' other people's demonstration when they continually prove you wrong. What did the experts say when you presented your little findings?
 
Oh noooos Beachnut?! DME is sampled at four second intervals!?
All of your JREF buddies are in disbelief because PFT proved you wrong?
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/77DMEmanyseconds.jpg

I know the FARs! You still have not answered the question, how often is the data updated for DME, the real actual DME. What is the resolution?

OOPS, the resolutions is 1 MN. You finally got to the regulation! Darn, I could not have left bigger crumbs!


http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/FARDME.jpg
Sampling interval is 4 seconds. Why are the DME stuck for over 8 to 20 seconds at a time?

1 mile. This means 1.5 DME recorded in the FDR with 1 mile resolution allows Flight 77 to be over 5 seconds away from the Pentagon, and 1.5 NM is not a hard figure.

Proof by p4t gofer, Turbofan.

It took hours or days but I got Turbofan to publish the regulation Appendix M to Part 121—Airplane Flight Recorder Specifications, proving Fight 77 can be over 5 seconds away from the Pentagon. I know the p4t have the real evidence to show 77 hit the Pentagon, they lack the skills to connect the dots. The BIG 1 mile resolution DOTS!

I wanted how often the actual DME is updated - the FAR does not answer that with 4 seconds and 1 mile resolution, unless you think the values stored meet that spec. Looks close. But the actual DME is not updated at 4 seconds. But a value is placed in the FDR every 4 seconds, and that value may meet the 1 mile resolution! Explained, maybe, by p4t, NOT.
 
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Are you saying that members of the Canadian Parliament are calling for the impeachment of Bush?

No, I'm not aware of any Canadian MP's going public with such information.

Beachnut: Do you understand you are listing FRAME data.

Do you know what frame layout looks like for the values you are posting?

Do you know that there are two receivers alternating information?!

DO you know that I linked you to the NTSB page which states

4 SECONDS

You got caught, you can't back out now. Sorry to say , you lack the
skill and knowledge to debate flight data.

It would be better for you to admit you screwed up and move on.
How in the world can you continue to state that DME is updated every
second!?

JREF, are you catching this? Beachnut wants to prove the spec wrong,
and the data files wrong.

He's trying to say that the DME values in the CSV file don't alternate every
two seconds.

This is YOUR expert beating a dead horse. Are you proud?
 
77DMEmanyseconds.jpg


I know the FARs! You still have not answered the question, how often is the data updated for DME, the real actual DME. What is the resolution?

OOPS, the resolutions is 1 MN. You finally got to the regulation! Darn, I could not have left bigger crumbs!


http://procision-auto.com/911/911_dme_ntsb.jpg
http://procision-auto.com/911/911_dme_ntsb2.jpg

You are such a joke!

#1. You listed the wrong parameter (Time). You should have listed this one for DME:

http://procision-auto.com/911/911_dme_ntsb2.jpg

#2. Since you didn't do your research and visit the NTSB page, you would
note that the top says:

"The recorded values must meet the designated range, resolution, and accuracy requirements during dynamic and static conditions. All data recorded must be correlated in time to within one second."

This means, the device must be certified to meet the minimum spec.

#3. You will notice in the image for DME, the column labeled "Accuracy"
says, "As Installed" which means you must
look to the manufacturer data to get the accuracy.

Most of the other data meets, or exceeds any of the NTSB minimum requirements
for resolution as shown in the FDR files aside from DME. This further proves Point #3

Of course you wouldn't know this because you are a washed-up has-been.

#4. The data is recording in fractions of 1 NM, which proves point #3.

#5. You lost this battle a few pages ago when you insisted DME was
polled at one second!

#6. Notice nobody is supporting your 1 second DME claim :roll:

Wanna go live big guy? I can call you tonight? :cool:

P.S. YOu are welcome for using MY screen shots, from MY server. Since I feel sorry for you
I will allow you to steal my images and use MY bandwidth.
 
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You think I'm going to post my full name without knowing yours tough guy?

Why? So you can give me a hard time like the brave, professionals that you
slam every day?

Sorry to say, but it's not going to happen until either of your 'pros' (:rolleyes:)
go live with me and PFT.

You want my name, let's get on the phone. Until then, you are chicken and
a faceless coward!

Let's see at least one of your 'experts' here put a name to their research just like
the members of PFT.
 
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The are not your images, they are FAA images and I can use them all day long. Sorry, you do not own the FARs. too bad

I just tried to explain the DME being static for 8, 16, and 20 second intervals. Have you?

I was asking your experts to explain why the data is static. You give me the FARs, something I had to study for over 35 years.

Now I have no idea why the DME is not updated to a value closer than 1 NM or more every 4 seconds, DO you?

Thus the data in FDR supports me, that Flight 77 is about 5 to 6 seconds away from the Pentagon! The 1.5 DME does not prove me wrong.

What is the installed accuracy of the DME. AIM says less than ½ mile, or 3%, whichever is higher. Cool
 
You think I'm going to post my full name without knowing yours tough guy?

Why? So you can give me a hard time like the brave, professionals that you
slam every day?

Sorry to say, but it's not going to happen until either of your 'pros' (:rolleyes:)
go live with me and PFT.

You want my name, let's get on the phone. Until then, you are chicken and
a faceless coward!

Let's see at least one of your 'experts' here put a name to their research just like
the members of PFT.


Why would I care to know the name of some guy who is clearly and obviously just some IT guy who is at a dead end job and makes a living pretending to be smarter than all the people he has to fix problems for even though they all make more money than him?

No, I jsut find it amusing that you run around accusing people of hiding anonymously when you yourself are being anonymous. Kinda puts a damper on your whole argument against people being faceless does it not? It's generally best not to have a problem with people doing the same thing you are right?

And what professionals have I insulted? You have not provided any FDR related credentials from anyone. And if you mean by professionals, simply people who are professional in some field (as opposed to you), then how do you justify your entire argument being based on insulting REAL professionals. And by real professionals, I include people who are professionals in the area we are discussing. Not people who were once a pilot barely and have limited experience with planes, or people who simply "pilot others to the twoof". I mean REAL professionals.

So if I am insulting professionals (as opposed to you), then please tell me the credentials related to FDRs that these people have.

And until someone goes live with you? What are you 2? For some reason you can't support your claims on a this forum, but ou can on the radio? I mean I have heard all kinds of crazy, but that's pretty crazy. Is it a magical radio perhaps?

And what research done by PFT? So far everything they have done has ben shown to be wrong. And there are experts here who do put their name to things. Dr Mackie is a perfect example of one.

It's also best if you don't miss the use experts when referring to PFT. It seems quite apparent that your 3rd grade level and burnt out IT job antics are just a front to make up for your lack of real experts.

I wlil remind you again, that real investigators and real experts don't poke holes at the work of others, they do a complete job. They come up with a complete story that shows how everything happened. Your little cult is not able to do that and you cower when asked to.
 
I'm actually going to be serious for a minute. Don't faint!

Going on the radio or TV for a debate would do nothing except show who can come up with answers off-the-cuff in that format. Would do nothing to prove anything about who was correct.

This online forum allows time for you to research, gather sources and present them in a logical and thoughtful manner if you choose to. However, all you have done is present cut-and-paste pieces of other's work, without showing the whole of it. You have mocked, insulted and ignored others, while not giving a complete, comprehensive narrative of what you think happened. This paints you as a hot-tempered reactionary who is not willing to listen, has not one iota of respect for others, and does not deserve the time to be taken seriously. This is why no one will ever debate you. Who wants to get a chair across their nose for daring to disagree with you?

We now return to our normal hilarity...
 
A Network Engineer? :roll:

Your research skills are awesome :rolleyes:

I'm doing pretty well for myself thanks. I don't need to make millions like
all of the JREF members do. LMAO

Why don't you do something constructive and show Beachnut how DME alternates, and the sample interval! He could use a little help in his old
washed up days.

Interesting, nobody accepted my live debate, or with PFT. Surprise!

Hey Pomeroo, are we going to set this up so I can prove to you how inexperienced
your "pros" really are?

I'm sure you have read Rob's request by now. We'll be there. Just set it up.
 

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