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Do Most Atheists Know that science..... Part 2

So Eddington fails the test of religious neutrality. Your non-religious sources are dropping like flies, DOC. My statement becomes truer by the hour. (Thank you, FireGarden!)

Which leaves me to continue wondering...

Why would someone who is religious say the idea of a beginning (of the universe) is "repugnant". He also was a great proponent of Einstein. He wrote the book over 10 years after his eclipse experiment. You must have missed that post. Peoples religious views do sometimes change in their lifetime.

And are you saying the agnostic Jastrow; and also Robert Wilson, are religious.
 
Why would someone who is religious say the idea of a beginning (of the universe) is "repugnant". He also was a great proponent of Einstein. He wrote the book over 10 years after his eclipse experiment. You must have missed that post. Peoples religious views do sometimes change in their lifetime.

And are you saying the agnostic Jastrow; and also Robert Wilson, are religious.

Are you asking questions, or making statements?
 
Have you read the entirety of any non-biased books on cosmology? Journal articles? Physics Today, Scientific American, anything?

I probably haven't read every word of the bible, but that doesn't keep me from understanding it. Let's just say I've read enough to of had the top three threads in the religious and philosophy forum. I've also read enough to know that string theory has been severely criticized and I will bring in those criticisms of it when I get the time.
 
I probably haven't read every word of the bible, but that doesn't keep me from understanding it. Let's just say I've read enough to of had the top three threads in the religious and philosophy forum.
Non sequitur. The number of posts doesn't prove understanding. Your many posts on this thread demonstrate no understanding of science, and sadly there seems to be no inclination to learn. (And it's, "have had", not, "of had".)
I've also read enough to know that string theory has been severely criticized and I will bring in those criticisms of it when I get the time.

I await your criticisms with bated breath.
 
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Is that like taking the proverbial? :confused:
No. It was merely a poorly done math joke.
the derivative and integral of ex has the same solution, ex.

ETA: assuming you ignore the constant in the integral solution
 
non sequitor
Not at all. A non sequitor would mean that my post doesn't follow logically from your post.
In response to firegarden, who said:
firegarden said:
Your source is definitely wrong to link Eddington's experiment in with proving the cosmological constant was a fudge or mistake of any kind. Hubble's observations, leading to his law, gets that honour.
you had said.
Norman Geisler, just doesn't talk about Eddington. He then goes on to talk about Hubble, and the discoverers of the afterglow, Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias. He even gives a quote of Wilson about Genesis, which I'll try to bring in later. He also talks of someone named George Smoot who I will have to look up.
This post would be a non sequitor unless, of course you believed that Geisler's argument is valid regardless of the vercity of his points.


Therefore I asked the logical question:
Are you opperating on the principle that it doesn't matter if Geisler makes makes factual errors as long as he agrees with your views?
 
All this talk about this PhD. is much ado about nothing. The only reason I even cited the website is that someone complained about me saying the Universe will eventually burn out. They complained about me using the words burned out. I did a quick search of google and found 377,000 entries for the words (universe burn out). I chose the second site I came to because of his words "the universe will burn out" and I saw he was a PhD. I didn't even know he was a Christian until I went back to the site yesterday. Someone mentioned he was a Christian earlier but it was such a minor point I didn't even bother do verify it until yesterday. Much ado about nothing.

There are literally hundreds of sites that use the words the universe and/or stars will burn out. I could of used any of those sites to show that the phrase "burned out" regarding cosmology is very common.
Which is pretty much the entire point.

There are hundreds of sites that use those words. You provide a link to one, with absolutely no idea about the nature of the website (which is pretty darned obvious to any casual observer), and without checking the credentials of the author. You saw that he was a "PhD" and that was enough for you. You didn't check what his PhD was in, or whether he was an active researcher. You saw "PhD" and the words you wanted and that was all that mattered.

That, in a nutshell, is the appeal to authority fallacy, all wrapped up in a nice neat observer bias package, topped with a cherry picker ribbon.

This is precisely what people keep criticising you for, and you keep doing it. One would have hoped that your experience of linking to a white supremacist website without checking it out first would have made you a little more cautious, but no. This is exactly why nobody trusts your sources, and everyone questions your motives.

It's also extremely interesting that the site you say you chose at random is written by a christian apologist. This may be indicative of your observer bias, or the fact that the phrase you picked is far more commonly used by those who don't actually understand the science. Maybe it's a combination of both.

So, let me explain, slowly and carefully, why your "PhD" is wrong to use the phrase "The Universe will burn out".

Stars "burn out". I put it in quotation marks, because stars do not, of course, 'burn' anything. The phraseology is specific to astronomy, and refers to the nuclear fusion reactions that power a star during its time on the main sequence and post main sequence until it becomes a white dwarf, neutron star, supernova or black dwarf. None of these latter objects undergoes fusion reactions (except the supernova, which does so very briefly, for the pedantic amongst you).

The end of the Universe will come in one of three manners;

1. A "Big Crunch". This will occur if the mass of the Universe is large enough to overcome the expansion and cause the Universe to contract. It's sort of the opposite of the Big Bang, and will result in a single solitary singularity. Some scientists conjecture that the Universe is just one in a continuous sequence of universes, beginning and ending in Big Bangs / Big Crunches, with each "Crunch" setting off a "Bang". The current evidence suggests that the mass is insufficient to cause a Big Crunch, which leaves two other possibilities.

2. "Heat Death". This means that the Universe will go on expanding for an infinite time into the future, until the matter is so spread out (on average) that interactions become rare, and stars can no longer form.

3. A "Big Rip", is what will happen if the cosmological constant is large enough, and does indeed increase as the Universe expands. The rate of expansion will increase exponentially until the fabric of spacetime tears itself apart.

Not a single one of these should be described, by anyone who knows what they're talking about, as "the Universe burning out". That's not to say that some who should know better has never actually used these words, or very similar, but if they did then they misspoke, or were mistaken.

Will you concede that you were wrong? Or even simply that your phrasing was in error? Will you ever admit that you don't actually understand the science that you're constantly talking about?



Oh, and if you have any questions about astronomy, why don't you ask a real astronomer?

I'd be more than happy to help.
 
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Which is pretty much the entire point.

There are hundreds of sites that use those words. You provide a link to one, with absolutely no idea about the nature of the website (which is pretty darned obvious to any casual observer), and without checking the credentials of the author. You saw that he was a "PhD" and that was enough for you. You didn't check what his PhD was in, or whether he was an active researcher. You saw "PhD" and the words you wanted and that was all that mattered.


And as was pointed out earlier, most of the web references to "burn out" are analogies rather than an actual description. Even "Dr Truth" is using the phrase as an analogy, as he does reference Heat Death more than he references a "burn out".


And just out of curiosity, I tried a Google with Universe Burn Out, both with quotes as well as without, and I didn't see Dr. Truth anywhere on the first two pages. When I used quotes, I was referred to a page on the legalization of marijuana and a page about gay authors. I think I learned more from each of those pages than Dr. Truth's (although I did laugh more reading his).

I wonder if DOC's search engines are hard-coded to only return links to christian friendly sites . . .
 
I've also read enough to know that string theory has been severely criticized and I will bring in those criticisms of it when I get the time.

Translation: "I will bring in those criticisms if I can ever understand them or the theory they're criticizing...or if I can ever find a way to use them to support my religious bias."
 
<snip> I chose the second site I came to because of his words "the universe will burn out" and I saw he was a PhD. I didn't even know he was a Christian until I went back to the site yesterday.<snip>.
Didn't you learn that this is not a particularly good research technique after you linked to that racist site in the other thread?
 
Non sequitur. The number of posts doesn't prove understanding. Your many posts on this thread demonstrate no understanding of science, and sadly there seems to be no inclination to learn. (And it's, "have had", not, "of had".)


I await your criticisms with bated breath.

Generalized statements like this are a dime a dozen. Once again no specifics. If a specific has already been pointed out, then why flood the thread. Generalized posts like these are designed to annoy or to blow off steam. Nothing is learned.
 
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Why would someone who is religious say the idea of a beginning (of the universe) is "repugnant".

He also was a great proponent of Einstein. He wrote the book over 10 years after his eclipse experiment. You must have missed that post. Peoples religious views do sometimes change in their lifetime.

Eddington was religious at the time he said that. The quote you gave of Eddington was taken from an article published in 1930/31. Isn't that the same date you gave for Eddington's book on why he believes in God?


A quesiton on Genesis and the BB:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis ;&version=31;

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.

If you take the first verse as God creating the Universe, then why did he create light only in the 3rd verse? Didn't you say that the BB theory agreed with genesis that light was part of the beginning of creation?
 
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I read the rest of your responses, Doc.

Still no admission that Geisler misinterpreted Eddington's solar eclipse experiment. No defense, either. Unless we include saying Geisler talks about other things.

(I agree with Joobz on that. Such a defense would be non-sequitur.)
 
I think it's important to highlight that the original quote is blatantly wrong.


{Quote of Geisler's and Turek's book}pg.73
"But Einstein's fudge factor didn't fudge for long. In 1919, British cosmologist Arthur Eddington conducted an experiment during a solar eclipse which confirmed that General Relativity was indeed true- the universe wasn't static but had a beginning."


Eddington's solar eclipse experiment had nothing to do with cosmological constants and static universes. It was a test of Relativity's predictions regarding the amount gravity would bend light. Eddington's experiment was consistant with General Relativity exactly as Einstein had chosen to describe it -- ie: static.

Friedman published, in 1922, a solution to Einstein's field equations in which the universe was not static. (I don't know why expansion is favoured in the wiki article). But here's the important thing: Eddington's solar eclipse experiment is also consitent with that solution to the field equations.

The quote from Geisler's and Turek's book "does not" say that Eddington's work had anything to do with cosmological constants and static universe, they said it confirmed general relativity was true and they imply that it is the general relativity theory that says the universe wasn't static but had a beginning.

You then talk about Friedman. Well you assumed that Geisler/Turek didn't talk about Friedman but they did, and they did it in the very next paragraph after the above quote about Eddington:

From the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Geisler/Turek (Pg. 74):

"By 1922, Russian mathematician A. Friedmann had officially exposed Einstein's fudge factor as an algebraic error. (Incredibly in his quest to avoid a beginning, the great Einstein had divided by zero - something even schoolchildren know is a no-no!) Meanwhile the Dutch astronomer W. de Sitter had found that General Relativity required the universe to be expanding. And in 1927, the expanding of the universe was actually observed by astronomer E. Hubble..."

So the original quote is not blatantly wrong as you stated.
 
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Eddington was religious at the time he said that. The quote you gave of Eddington was taken from an article published in 1930/31. Isn't that the same date you gave for Eddington's book on why he believes in God?

You say the quote was taken from an article, but do you have a source as to when he actually said it first.




A quesiton on Genesis and the BB:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis ;&version=31;



If you take the first verse as God creating the Universe, then why did he create light only in the 3rd verse? Didn't you say that the BB theory agreed with genesis that light was part of the beginning of creation?

All I believe I said was that the big bang points to a beginning of time space and matter much like Genesis points to a beginning of the universe. This correlation couldn't have occurred with the steady state theory.
 
The quote from Geisler's and Turek's book "does not" say that Eddington's work had anything to do with cosmological constants and static universe, they said it confirmed general relativity was true and they imply that it is the general relativity theory that says the universe wasn't static but had a beginning.

They say "Einstein's fudge factor didn't fudge for long. In 1919, ...." And go on about Eddington's experiment. Then they follow that with Eddington still not liking a beginning to the universe.

The GR theory Eddington confirmed was the one that Einstein had offered up at the time: one which described a static universe.

Your source does not make that clear. It very strongly implies the opposite. The phrase "Einstein's fudge factor didn't fudge for long," should have been reserved for later in their narrative because it fudged beyond 1919.

You then talk about Friedman. Well you assumed that Geisler/Turek didn't talk about Friedman but they did, and they did it in the very next paragraph after the above quote about Eddington:

I did not assume they said nothing about Friedmann. I was merely filling in the history.

From the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Geisler/Turek (Pg. 74):

"By 1922, Russian mathematician A. Friedmann had officially exposed Einstein's fudge factor as an algebraic error. (Incredibly in his quest to avoid a beginning, the great Einstein had divided by zero - something even schoolchildren know is a no-no!) Meanwhile the Dutch astronomer W. de Sitter had found that General Relativity required the universe to be expanding. And in 1927, the expanding of the universe was actually observed by astronomer E. Hubble..."

I'll have to check that division by zero claim. The way I remember things, it was Einstein who claimed that Friedmann had made a mathematical error. When asked to look at it again, he admitted the maths was correct but did not accept that it was a true model of the Universe -- only that it was a mathematical solution of his field equations.

So the original quote is not blatantly wrong as you stated.

I still say the quote is wrong.

Look at this way: When you first read the quote, did you know that Eddington's experiment still permitted a static universe? If not, then you were misled. And I fail to see how any reader could avoid being misled, other than by ignoring what was written or already knowing the truth.
 
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You say the quote was taken from an article, but do you have a source as to when he actually said it first.

I gave this link earlier, but it is a busy thread:
http://darwiniana.com/2007/04/27/eddington-anti-chance/

The first page is here:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3606671

I'm not sure, but as I understand it the presidential address was made in 1930 and published in 1931.

All I believe I said was that the big bang points to a beginning of time space and matter much like Genesis points to a beginning of the universe. This correlation couldn't have occurred with the steady state theory.

But what do you believe?
Do you believe that the scientists are right by accident? That BB theory is incorrect in details like when light was created, but correct about there being a beginning?


Also,
BohHope asks why you think that Genesis refers to the beginning of the Universe:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3964124&postcount=540

Are the Heavens and Earth the universe?

And which quote of Wilson were you going to give? Did I guess right?
 
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