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Russia invades Georgia

Yes and no. India for example is pretty much a bunch of seperate countries stuck together.

It is more of a federation. I was interested to learn that English is the common language in India, because there are so many different languages used in those individual countries.

As for the Georgian troops in Iraq that are being pulled out, I doubt they will be going back.
 
moon1969 said:
Just look at what Vladimir Putin has done to Chechnya.
Are you actually taking the side of Islamist fundamentalists simply because they don't like the Russians? Just how confused can a person be and still function? Is there no limit?
I've yet to see one.


Just how dishonest can a person be? CapelDodger, you actually accuse moon1969 of "taking the side of Islamic fundamentalists" because he dared point out what Putin did to Chechnya?

Okaaaaaaaay, that was just a very childish and dishonest post of yours. Classical in its own way. Oh well, I have no idea why your stupid animus against the Georgians, but it's very clear you're definitely not trying to discuss. Preach, yeah, rant, definitely, but discuss, nope.
 
Do you have anything substantial to contribute about the topic, or just empty hostility towards anyone with a different POV than your own?

Quíte frankly, Cleon, this is really unworthy of you. Dubalb very commonly makes very substantive posts, including one which you quoted in your post (the very first quote). You failed to deal with it, and instead just got emptily snarky at him. Do you yourself have anything substantial to contribute?
 
This is a common myth. Everyone living under the Pax Romana very much preferred it to the alternative -

If the alternative meant being killed in a war against the Roman Empire, yes, that does not make the Pax Romana any good.

except the slaves of course... :cool:

Who were the majority of the population in Imperial Rome, go ahead..

The fall of the Pax Romana saw about 12 million people's lives very rapidly get a lot worse. Those that survived it, that is.

The meaning of this is not clear to me.
Again, you may not have very clear how the Roman treated the population they conquered :)
 
I didn't say that. I said "For a modern war rather a high percentage of the fighting has been between regular forces."

And this is true. Once the fighting proper started both sides focused on conventional militry targets. By the standards of modern warfare the percentage of civlian casulties has been rather low.

Again.
You were replying to my post:

2000+ deaths in South Ossetia
2900+ deaths on Sept. 11
I do not see much difference.
Do I?

Please, tell me how the deaths in South Ossetia are different from the deaths on the WTC.
Although I am not sure that the vast part of the deaths in SO are soldiers (I have different info from the Italian sites), why should be the death of a military considered less "bad" than the death of a civilian?
 
Prepared to do to stop them maybe. The west could turn Iran into radioactive glass tomorrow if it felt like it

And Iran can bomb the strait of Ormutz today and send the price of oil to 300USD-400USD a barrel.
That will crash your economy.

Doubtful. There are still powerful non-islamic groups in Pakistan (and for various reasons the Islamic parties didn't do too well at the last elections).

AFAIR, the major political force in Pakistan is linked to Islam.
Whether they are radical or not I do not know, surely they are not pro-America, considering that the vast majority of the Pakistani is definitely not pro-America
 
Experence suggests it gives it a chance to reach a whole new level of pettyness. Refereeing between Japan and Korea on the Liancourt Rocks issue makes you wish for the days of nuclear testing when you could remove the darn things.

You mean that we have to be afraid of an invasion of South Korea to Japan (or the other way around) on the issue?
 
"and so" (maybe I should have written "or so", but I guess the meaning of "2800 and so" was clear enough)
Not willing to address the point?


I agree with your point. You weren't sure on the number of victims for 9/11. Thanks to my combating Conspiracy Theorists on the subject I know a lot about it off the top of my head - including the death toll. Just thought I'd be helpful and point out the exact number for you. :)
 
I agree with your point. You weren't sure on the number of victims for 9/11. Thanks to my combating Conspiracy Theorists on the subject I know a lot about it off the top of my head - including the death toll. Just thought I'd be helpful and point out the exact number for you. :)

OK.
Thanks for agreeing and for the exact number.

In war? I would have thought that would be obvious. Soldiers knowingly put themselves in harms way. Civilians do not.

I do not see so obvious.
So, if things are like you say, why the Americans always complain for their 4000+ soldiers dead in Iraq and seldom mention the 100000+ civilian dead there?

Also, some sources claim that the death toll of civilians in SO is 2000+: Moscow accused the Georgian armed forces of causing 2,000 deaths among civilians (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dfcb3ca0-69a2-11dd-91bd-0000779fd18c.html)
 
If the alternative meant being killed in a war against the Roman Empire, yes, that does not make the Pax Romana any good.

That's not what I referred to. People living inside the boundaries of the Empire had a substantially higher quality of life than those living outside.


Who were the majority of the population in Imperial Rome, go ahead..

This is incorrect. Slaves accounted for about 25% of the population of Rome and about 20% of the population of the Empire. Also the reality is that the Romans are recognised for the overall good treatment of their slaves - slaves of wealthy families (who were the ones who could afford slaves) could expect a quality of life far superior to a lower class freeman. Slave in the Roman context was vastly different to slavery as we understand it. Romans would often voluntarily sell themselves into slavery to pay off a debt.

The slaves who were more akin to the sorts of slaves we know were the ones that worked the salt mines and unpleasant places like that. Many were convicted criminals.

Granted none of their slaves were free, and they were very much at the mercy of their owners. But it's worth highlighting that it was a different world.


The meaning of this is not clear to me.

The loss of Roman protection saw all of the lands of the Empire plunged into two thousand years of nearly constant warfare, some of which continues to this day. In the centuries immediately after the collapse of the Empire all of western Europe was invaded by German hordes who virtually wiped out the local culture.




Again, you may not have very clear how the Roman treated the population they conquered :)

It sounds like you're the one that doesn't have an honest picture of how they treated people. The Romans demanded only one thing from the conquered; that they accept Rome as supreme over them. That this should occur was only right and just as clearly the Roman Gods were superior to their Gods. For the most part the local people got to keep their way of life.

If I had to live in that time, and I had the choice of living outside the borders of the Empire, or living in one of its provinces, I'd choose to live in one of its provinces without hesitation. And I wasn't the only one. The Visigoths begged the Romans to let them join their Empire.
 
I do not see so obvious.
So, if things are like you say, why the Americans always complain for their 4000+ soldiers dead in Iraq and seldom mention the 100000+ civilian dead there?

The people "complaining" are people anti the war who are using it for emotional leverage to try convince Americans to leave.

Additionally (or alternatively) it's because they consider Americans to be worth more than Iraqis.
 
That's not what I referred to. People living inside the boundaries of the Empire had a substantially higher quality of life than those living outside.

Not true for the slaves, who constituted a large part of the population in Rome and Cis-Padania.
Not true for the population who lost their freedom to the Romans, and were forced to pay heavy tolls to their masters.
Maybe true for a handful of Roman Senators

This is incorrect. Slaves accounted for about 25% of the population of Rome and about 20% of the population of the Empire.

From my studies in high school, they were more than that.

Also the reality is that the Romans are recognised for the overall good treatment of their slaves - slaves of wealthy families (who were the ones who could afford slaves) could expect a quality of life far superior to a lower class freeman. Slave in the Roman context was vastly different to slavery as we understand it.

They had no rights at all.
They could have been mistreated by their masters in any way possible.
When they tried to battle for their rights once, they got be killed in the tens of thousands in a cruel way (learn about Spartacus).
It is very clear that you do not know what you are talking about.

Romans would often voluntarily sell themselves into slavery to pay off a debt.

Like victims of rape are happy of having being raped

The slaves who were more akin to the sorts of slaves we know were the ones that worked the salt mines and unpleasant places like that. Many were convicted criminals.

Granted none of their slaves were free, and they were very much at the mercy of their owners. But it's worth highlighting that it was a different world.

What do you think the sentence "they were very much at the mercy of their owners" mean?

The loss of Roman protection saw all of the lands of the Empire plunged into two thousand years of nearly constant warfare, some of which continues to this day. In the centuries immediately after the collapse of the Empire all of western Europe was invaded by German hordes who virtually wiped out the local culture.

You are trying to say that Stalin was good as he opposed Hitler, who was bad

It sounds like you're the one that doesn't have an honest picture of how they treated people. The Romans demanded only one thing from the conquered; that they accept Rome as supreme over them. That this should occur was only right and just as clearly the Roman Gods were superior to their Gods. For the most part the local people got to keep their way of life.

You are dreaming

If I had to live in that time, and I had the choice of living outside the borders of the Empire, or living in one of its provinces, I'd choose to live in one of its provinces without hesitation. And I wasn't the only one. The Visigoths begged the Romans to let them join their Empire.

I wish you could live for a day as a slave under a Roman Senator.(*)

edited to add
(*) that is of course a rethorical sentence.
I do NOT wish you could live for a day as a slave under a Roman Senator
 
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The people "complaining" are people anti the war who are using it for emotional leverage to try convince Americans to leave.

Additionally (or alternatively) it's because they consider Americans to be worth more than Iraqis.

That makes a good explanation about why Americans are so much hated.
 
Not true for the slaves, who constituted a large part of the population in Rome and Cis-Padania.
Not true for the population who lost their freedom to the Romans, and were forced to pay heavy tolls to their masters.
Maybe true for a handful of Roman Senators

Certainly the people at the top of the pile had things better off, but they always do. The Empire allowed trade though, and it allowed stability, so that people could do much better. Tax rates were much better controlled than they were elsewhere.

You're acting like people outside the Empire were living in some sort of magical wonderland of freedom and joy. The reality is most people in those days were living in someone akin to slavery anyway, under the heel of a petty local war lord, starving to death, likely to be overrun and slaughtered at a moment's notice by the warlord the next valley over.

The fact that the Empire was better isn't so much a reflection of how good the Empire was, but how much worse it was to be outside the Empire.



From my studies in high school, they were more than that.

Then your studies in high school are mistaken.


They had no rights at all.
They could have been mistreated by their masters in any way possible.

This is incorrect. Roman slaves did have rights, and gained more rights as the Empire progressed. They even had the right to redress for wrongs committed against them by their master. Many Romans treated their slaves better than their own children.


When they tried to battle for their rights once, they got be killed in the tens of thousands in a cruel way (learn about Spartacus).

Anyone who tried to rebel against anyone in those day got killed in a cruel way. Bringing up the Third Servile War just highlights your ignorance of slavery - Spartacus and his original followers were Gladiators, and Gladiators consisted of condemned criminals and prisoners of war. They were thought of as slaves, but they were essentially people sentenced to death. Spartacus was a former Roman soldier who had deserted and had been caught and condemned to death (like all deserters).

Spartacus' army came from the lowest slave ranks (and it's not clear how many of them were even slaves) and slaves were treated much more harshly during the Republic than the Empire. Particularly, in those days the wealthy Roman land owners used slaves on the latifundia (farms).

As for the motives of the slavers, it's not entirely known, but Kubrick's interpretation of Spartacus as a freedom fighter is wholly fantasy. The Slaves made not the slightest effort to free other slaves or bring reform - they simply raged across the country side pillaging, and almost certainly killed thousands of slaves themselves.

Most of the slaves that were killed in what was a war were killed in battle, so there was nothing particularly cruel about how they died. They had ample opportunity to leave Italy, and some historians report that the army split and a large body did cross the Alps. Only about 6,000 were crucified, which was hardly an uncommon punishment to receive from the Romans, slave or not.

What you're ignoring, of course, is what happened in the years after this. Firstly, the use of slaves for farming stopped - the latifundia started using freemen in sharedcropping agreements. Secondly, slaves gained more and more rights over time - for example if a slave was mistreated by a master, that master could be forced to sell them. If a master killed a slave without justification it was considered murder. Slaves could appeal to a third party if mistreated by their owners. A slave that was abandoned became a freeman. And so on.


Like victims of rape are happy of having being raped

This makes no sense whatsoever in response to my point that Romans would voluntarily sell themselves in to slavery. How can choosing to do something be compared in any way whatsoever to rape? I'm merely highlighting that the modern concept of "slave" and the Roman concept of "slave" are simply not the same.


What do you think the sentence "they were very much at the mercy of their owners" mean?

Children were at the mercy of their fathers too. We're at the mercy of our employers. "At the mercy of" does not mean "were mistreated by". Most Roman slaves (of the non condemned variety) were treated pretty well by their owners. An owner who didn't treat their slaves well could face bankruptcy very quickly.


You are trying to say that Stalin was good as he opposed Hitler, who was bad

I'm not saying anything remotely like that.


You are dreaming

No, I'm not dreaming. You don't seem to have the slightest understanding of how Roman conquest worked. Examples like Carthage were the exception, not the rule. Monotheistic religions don't need to suppress foreign cultures, particularly not Roman religion which associated Gods with places. Most often they'd come along and go "We call the God of War Mars, what do you call him?" Or they'd say things like "What God lives in that River?" The Roman religion was based on numen and this by its nature recognised foreign Gods. Foreign Gods would even be followed by Romans - the Cults of Isis and Mithras were two of the most popular amongst Romans by the 4th Century and neither were Roman Gods.


I wish you could live for a day as a slave under a Roman Senator.(*)

edited to add
(*) that is of course a rethorical sentence.
I do NOT wish you could live for a day as a slave under a Roman Senator

I'd find the experience fascinating. I'd rather live as a Senator's slave (during the Empire that is) than as a regular pleb, or god forbid a legionary. Perhaps you'd join me, and we could both learn a thing or two.
 
That makes a good explanation about why Americans are so much hated.


Most people consider their countrymen to be worth more than anyone else's. It's natural.

It's not a very good explanation for why Americans are hated though. They're hated primarily because the rest of the world is jealous. It's always the way.
 
With volunteer armies, that is true. However, many countries have conscripted armies, which means the great majority of soldiers are actually civilians in uniform.


This is a very good point, and very true. I guess in that context the only difference between a conscripted soldier and a civilian is that the soldier has a weapon, and is presumably using it (most American soldiers in Vietnam were conscripts, yet when in combat 98% fired their weapons at the enemy).
 

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