WTC 1 & 2. What happened after collapse initiation?
- Thread starter tanabear
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You are worried, are you? Anyway - it is a simple model test for children (under parents' supervision) to see if we can initiate a sudden collapse of the upper block (replaced by a water tank) by fire. It is not a scientific research program or anything like that.
Sudden collapse would occur if the supports, our 4 columns, fail simultaneously. As they are only 1 mm thick, they heat up quickly so one thermometer suffices.
It is a very safe experiment as according to simple theoretical analysis (and practical experience) nothing will really happen at 500°C. You can then draw your own conclusions from this little test.
If you manage to increase the temperature, unlikely, as fresh cool air is sucked in to keep the fire going, the only possible result is that one column deforms more than the other and that the water tank tilts a little ... and water spills out - outside the columns.
But no column will suddenly collapse. Try it!
JihadJane
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cyclonic - ->
******Try doing r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h JJ ********
With respect, anyone seriously comparing a radio tower to the massive structural cores of the Twin Towers needs to do some r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h themselves
This kind of lunacy gets debunkers a bad name.
******Try doing r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h JJ ********
With respect, anyone seriously comparing a radio tower to the massive structural cores of the Twin Towers needs to do some r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h themselves
This kind of lunacy gets debunkers a bad name.Mashuna
Ovis ex Machina
I don't think there's any need for another thread. You've answered my questions pretty well.
To sum up:
1. You're an expert because ships are steel and WTC was a steel structure.
2. I should trust what you say because you're trustworthy.
You've given me no reason to pay attention to anything you say, so I'll bow out of this conversation.
Bump for Heiwa
If you have read my messages at JREF forum, you should know I have grandchildren who were jumping in my bed inspiring me to write an article about WTC1. Grandchildren imply children and I have plenty, all of which have had very exciting childhoods. I am also known as Daddy Cool (not Kook) taking them along on my excursions. I also hope they live long ... to look after me.
What yes or no question are you referring to? I am not getting married.
cyclonic - ->
******Try doing r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h JJ ********
With respect, anyone seriously comparing a radio tower to the massive structural cores of the Twin Towers needs to do some r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h themselves
What part of
"but neither the outer skeleton nor the inner core could stand alone, so robertson used steel floor trusses to knit it together"
don't you understand?
Newtons Bit
Penultimate Amazing
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cyclonic - ->
******Try doing r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h JJ ********
With respect, anyone seriously comparing a radio tower to the massive structural cores of the Twin Towers needs to do some r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h themselves
Elastic buckling is the limit state of all slender compression elements. It doesn't matter if the columns are part of the WTC or part of a radio tower.
Dave_46
Graduate Poster
Not only don't approach the "contraption" (good word) with a thermometer, don't approach it at all. I see his "method statement" still gives no advice on safety exclusion zones around the experiment. Hell, it doesn't even say that it shouldn't be done in an enclosed space. No guidance on wind conditions and their affect on safety. No guidance on igniting (my method statements always had a different person pouring the fuel from the one igniting it, to avoid possible problems with fuel spilt on clothing). And he didn't answer my question about what a tray of burning fuel could do to concrete
I did wonder what he meant by "thermometer" but you've tipped him off now that it is a thermocouple (I wonder how many people have a thermometer around that can measure temperatures in excess of 500°C)
Having just rechecked his website, I note that in his costings,
he makes no provision for instrumentation af any sort.
Dave
JihadJane
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@ cyclonic
Thanks for the quote. Can you give a reference, please.
@ Newtons Bit
Wasn't the core better described as an intense grid of girders going in all directions? Please define the mechanics of "elastic buckling" in this context. Thanks
Thanks for the quote. Can you give a reference, please.
@ Newtons Bit
Wasn't the core better described as an intense grid of girders going in all directions? Please define the mechanics of "elastic buckling" in this context. Thanks
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
R-e-s-e-a-r-c-h. The Search Function is your friend.
If you troofers would do a little of both, we would [EDIT] not[/EDIT]have to recycle this pure, unadultrated BS every 3 months.
We don't have to remember lies--the truth is the same every time.
And, although you reached "Ignore" in near record time, please learn to use the forum correctly before you spew the lies and garbage...
USE THE DAMN QUOTE BUTTON!
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Heiwa's description of his experiment is a bit like that Monty Python "killer joke" that had to be written in sections in case the authors died of laughter. (Except with Heiwa you'd die of stupid if you read it all at once).
But .. I've only just noticed that his Heath Robinson collection of 20mm x 1mm-thick tubular legs welded onto 60kg 5mm steel plates (etc) is supposed to carry no less than 1,500kg of water, making a total weight pushing 2 tonnes. With precious little cross-bracing.
I have no knowledge of welding or making steel structures of any kind, but I kind of get the feeling this thing might easily collapse under its own weight unless it was precision-engineered and not subject to any wind, sloping surfaces or whatever. But I'm just guessing here.
But clearly the whole business exists only in his imagination and to "prove" his potty "calculations" , so it's all academic I suppose.
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You could do a much simpler and fun experiment with the kids.
Suspend a heavy book halfway down a string.
Pull down fast and see the string break below the book.
Pull slowly and see it break above the book.
It is an excelent demonstration of inertia, and the first thing I throught off when I saw the towers break up in the damaged section and not from the bottom where the weightload was greater.
Suspend a heavy book halfway down a string.
Pull down fast and see the string break below the book.
Pull slowly and see it break above the book.
It is an excelent demonstration of inertia, and the first thing I throught off when I saw the towers break up in the damaged section and not from the bottom where the weightload was greater.
Thanks for your concern and info about your lack of welding knowledge, etc. Yes, the design, incl. cross bracing, is slendered down to minimum but you need not worry about wind, etc. And there are no sloping surfaces. The first test is actually when you fill upp the tank with water to compress the table legs (columns), but it is a strength and pressure test of the structure and the tank. Nothing to laugh about. Without it, you cannot proceed. Try it!
PS The thermometer was incl. in misc. in the budget.
Re the NIST report and the Bazant paper it seems we can condemn those to obloquy! Everyone agrees?
According to this, you recommend standing close to an inferno of burning rags, paper + diesel - running at some 500°C - wielding "a thermometer" at arm's length ???
Heiwa, have you ever performed the experiment yourself?
Yes or no.
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Newtons Bit
Penultimate Amazing
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First: the "girders" didn't go in all directions, they spanned between the columns in the two principal orthogonal axes.
Second: The "girders" were obliterated by the collapsing tower. The core remaining columns were all but unbraced, hence elastic buckling. If you don't know what elastic buckling is, I recommend using google. Be prepared to encounter information on topics you have no pre-knowledge of and thus spend a large amount of time and effort to get a good idea of the concept.
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JihadJane
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rwguinn-->
*********If you troofers would do a little of both, we would [EDIT] not[/edit]have to recycle this pure, unadultrated BS every 3 months.
We don't have to remember lies--the truth is the same every time.*******
What is a "troofer"?
I'm sorry my questions have upset you so much. Is providing sources for quotes uncool on JREF? Sorry. Surely "every 3 months" can't be that much effort if you want to educate ignorant members of the public.
*******And, although you reached "Ignore" in near record time, please learn to use the forum correctly before you spew the lies and garbage... *********
Sometimes being ignored is a blessing. Challenging cognitive dissonance can sometimes trigger panic, fight or flight reactions such as outbursts of irrational anger.
********USE THE DAMN QUOTE BUTTON!********
There are technical problems with my browser.
*********If you troofers would do a little of both, we would [EDIT] not[/edit]have to recycle this pure, unadultrated BS every 3 months.
We don't have to remember lies--the truth is the same every time.*******
What is a "troofer"?
I'm sorry my questions have upset you so much. Is providing sources for quotes uncool on JREF? Sorry. Surely "every 3 months" can't be that much effort if you want to educate ignorant members of the public.
*******And, although you reached "Ignore" in near record time, please learn to use the forum correctly before you spew the lies and garbage... *********
Sometimes being ignored is a blessing. Challenging cognitive dissonance can sometimes trigger panic, fight or flight reactions such as outbursts of irrational anger.
********USE THE DAMN QUOTE BUTTON!********
There are technical problems with my browser.
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
And Heiwa, while you are at it, how about answering my previous questions:
and
Did you watch the video posted? The quote begins at 2:35 in that video. If your browser is having problem you can add in quote tags to your post. The syntax is as follows
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