Does the soul exist?

[John Freestone]

Sorry, I know the question was about 'soul', but it seems to have become hijacked by God's little helpers, so I thought I'd ask, why won't God heal amputees?

 

[Civilized Worm]

Just kidding, we already have gone over N.D.E. cases O.B.E.s also that support these conclusions.

No, they don't.

You guys want personal stories?

No we want evidence, REAL evidence.

 

[Toblerowned]

I'm not at all sure there is such an essence, nor even free will. It's perhaps not possible to demonstrate (I'd love to discuss this point more if anyone has an idea how to do that), because if everything is predetermined, so is every detail of every experiment into whether things are predetermined or not! Likewise, I wonder: if you realise how amazingly flexible and programmable your brain is, you did so because of your genetic makeup and your experiences, your education, everything that led up to that moment. Similarly, someone you try to inspire with this ability to choose more and learn more might not be able to do so. I know I could learn a massive amount more than I know if I trained my brain and read more, but I read the same amount and forget almost all of it! However, you might be right, and if consciousness is an emergent property, perhaps free will is also. Still, if you try to choose something quite arbitrary, and make sure you are making the choice, you find that the proof of free will, which seems like it ought to be obvious, evaporates. If you choose between A and B, whichever you choose, it might have been caused by things known or unknown, and it may not be possible to choose the one you "weren't supposed to", if you see what I mean.

I've wondered about free will myself. I feel it exists and you very much have a choice. That said, everything that you do, or think, every choice you make, is determined by past experiences and what others have told you. As a result, people rarely exercise their free will because they have essentially conformed. Sure, on your next way home, you could turn left instead of right and go down some unknown road just for the hell of it. But you won't. And thus, both your actions and consequences of them have very predictable results. This makes your free will an illusion and without a serious commitment to question who you are and what you do, I don't think you'll ever have a free will to express. You'll be expressing your conformity of your surroundings.

As far as the soul goes, or mind, I am inclined to believe that they are the same thing. I think that mind comes before thought, before the brain. And even if your brain is damaged, you still have a mind. The brain can only damage your brain, and everything it connects to, and I feel that while your brain is quite possibly the most amazing thing anyone has ever seen, it is different then mind. Nonetheless, it's quite a complicated subject.

 

[Radrook]

Sorry, I know the question was about 'soul', but it seems to have become hijacked by God's little helpers, so I thought I'd ask, why won't God heal amputees?

Well, as one of God's little helpers I certainly don't want to derail the thread away from the soul subject. That's why I tried to make my statements as brief and relevant as possible. But since you seem to be requesting a biblically-based response: From a biblical standpoint God has a schedule.

Ecclesiastes

1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:....



The kind of healing you mention is scheduled to occur during the time of the restoration of all things.

Acts 3:21
whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Below the prophet Isaiah speaks of that restoration:

Isaiah 35:5-7

5. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing....

BTW

The above scriptures are in direct response to a direct question. They are not intended for those who did not ask the question. Neither are they intended to convert the godless. They merely constitute an informative response. So please try not to panic.

 

[Tricky]

Well, as one of God's little helpers I certainly don't want to derail the thread away from the soul subject. That's why I tried to make my statements as brief and relevant as possible. But since you seem to be requesting a response: From a biblical standpoint God has a schedule. The kind of healing you mention is reserved for the ressurection from the dead as well as the restoration of all things.


Ecclesiastes

1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:....


Isaiah 35:5-7

5. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing....

But ya know, the blind have had eyes opened. The lame have leapt, and the dumb have sung, all in this earthly lifetime, and all of which have been attributed to God. What has God got against healing amputees in this earthly lifetime?

 

[John Freestone]

Well, as one of God's little helpers I certainly don't want to derail the thread away from the soul subject. That's why I tried to make my statements as brief and relevant as possible. But since you seem to be requesting a biblically-based response: From a biblical standpoint God has a schedule.

Ecclesiastes

1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:....



The kind of healing you mention is scheduled to occur during the time of the restoration of all things.

Acts 3:21
whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Below the prophet Isaiah speaks of that restoration:

Isaiah 35:5-7

5. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing....

BTW

The above scriptures are in direct response to a direct question. They are not intended for those who did not ask the question. Neither are they intended to convert the godless. They merely constitute an informative response. So please try not to panic.

Hm, and yet, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Various other quotes from Mathew and Mark would suggest that Jesus made such a promise. I got this from here BTW. Are there just not any really faithful amputees, or did Jesus forget to mention that their prayers won't be answered, or did he lie, or is the Bible not a true record of what he said, or what? Funny how we move mountains with big machines, too. No-one seems to have got the hang of praying.

 

[edge]

No, they don't.





No we want evidence, REAL evidence.

Send your address and the next time I get an extra one I will send it to you.

 

[Civilized Worm]

 

[Perpetual Seeker]

Hm, and yet, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Various other quotes from Mathew and Mark would suggest that Jesus made such a promise. I got this from here BTW. Are there just not any really faithful amputees, or did Jesus forget to mention that their prayers won't be answered, or did he lie, or is the Bible not a true record of what he said, or what? Funny how we move mountains with big machines, too. No-one seems to have got the hang of praying.

Maybe God just lost the owner's manual. He couldn't figure out how to heal my optic nerves, either.

 

[Radrook]

Hm, and yet, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Within the parameters of the restoration of all things. Something which Jesus and the Jews who were his first disciples were fully aware of and something which obviously appears to escape your notice?

Various other quotes from Matthew and Mark would suggest that Jesus made such a promise. I got this from here BTW. Are there just not any really faithful amputees, or did Jesus forget to mention that their prayers won't be answered, or did he lie, or is the Bible not a true record of what he said, or what? Funny how we move mountains with big machines, too. No-one seems to have got the hang of praying.

Not at all. Jesus was as knowledgeable as any other OT Bible scholar concerning the basic teachings found within the OT. He was aware of the promised new Heavens and New Earth where all the prayers you mention would be answered and he spoke in full knowledge of God's timetable to have those promises and prayers fulfilled.

Neither was he expecting Jews and Christians who would or had studied the OT and later the NT to feel cheated or lied to. He expected them to understand the basics as clearly stated in the inspired scripture. It's the unfamiliarity with or the refusal to acknowledge those basics which causes the problem.

 

[edge]

Faithful amputees still feel like their limbs are still there, so the soul isn't affected and must come to glory to receive their new spiritual body.
Radrook says:

The kind of healing you mention is reserved for the resurrection from the dead as well as the restoration of all things.

In other words you can kill the body but not the soul. The soul is indestructible.
Your arm/leg might be missing in the body but not the soul.

It's the same as myself having teeth removed, sometimes there are phantom toothaches and sometimes they seem to be there still.
But to function still you have to adapt to the missing parts even when you chew.
To say that it never happens doesn't mean it's impossible for God to restore the missing parts. He reserves this for the other side since the fall of man into sin.

I could speculate further on this and say since the fall of man into sin, some of Gods sustaining power was withdrawn and maybe before this, when the creation was new that replacement of limbs caused by accidents might have had the capability of being replaced, but we would be theorizing.

 

[Radrook]

Faithful amputees still feel like their limbs are still there, so the soul isn't affected and must come to glory to receive their new spiritual body.

Phantom limb can also be understood as the part of the brain that was in charge of that limb still functioning as if it were. Right?

In other words you can kill the body but not the soul. The soul is indestructible. Your arm/leg might be missing in the body but not the soul.

That's not what I was trying to convey.

It's the same as myself having teeth removed, sometimes there are phantom toothaches and sometimes they seem to be there still. But to function still you have to adapt to the missing parts even when you chew. To say that it never happens doesn't mean it's impossible for God to restore the missing parts. He reserves this for the other side since the fall of man into sin.

We are in general agreement on that part.

I could speculate further on this and say since the fall of man into sin, some of Gods sustaining power was withdrawn and maybe before this, when the creation was new that replacement of limbs caused by accidents might have had the capability of being replaced, but we would be theorizing.

But such painful disfiguring life-threatening accidents need not have been allowed to happen in that paradisaic world as the restoration promise indicates.

Revelation 21:4
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”


In any case, these are non-salvational issues which do not and should not affect our Christian unity.

BTW
I will set up my PM optiion today so we can discuss this in private if you wish.

 

[edge]

It was more directed toward John freestone.
I have to work in an hour, but yes we'll talk, feel free to pm me Rad.

I try to follow more of what Jesus said about all this and yes we are in agreement on the essentials.

The contradictions are in revelations about our souls.
So yes there are two different versions and I am going to work on the exact statements next…. and where they contradict each other, I’ll do that tonight.
Doug Bachlor, I recived a C.D. of his latest sermon delivered to my door yesterday as we talked about all this, from out of the blue.
Lots of what we talked about in here is presented in the CD, that brought to my attention the contradiction.

I'll Be Back.



I’m back it's amazing how these little addendums come into the spirit.

This pertains here too.

John 3:8

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

 

[Tricky]

The wind blows wherever it pleases.

I realize you think this sounds heavy, but this is incorrect, even if we accepted that the wind is a thing with the ability to choose.

You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Yes you can. Look at flags or smoke other things blowing in the wind. It is very easy to see. Or you can throw a handful of fine dirt in the air.

And assuming you consider yourself "born of the spirit", we can see where you're coming from and where you're going to a mile away. You are predictable as the sunrise (since we're speaking in metaphors.)

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

I came to question the existence of a soul when I began to wonder what happpened to it when people on Star Trek beamed down to some planet. Did the soul beam down with the body? In which case this meant that it had some sort of corporal existence and, if so, where was that located? If it didn't beam down, what the hell happened to it? Did it just hang out on the ship, waiting for the body to come back? And what happened to it if the body didn't come back? Would it know the body wasn't coming back? And if it didn't beam down with the body, would you know the difference between a body with a soul and one without? I was rather disappointed that no one in the series or in any of the movies ever mentioned any of this.

Nominated.

A science fiction show triggered your skepticism.
Priceless.

 

[billydkid]

Well from my point of view, not believing isn't rational and who said spiritually had to be rational since it's faith based.
It is innate. You just have to recognize it. The longing for something more that is proved to just believers.
To be more than dirt!

But that's not what you said. You said you posted proof of something or other. See, the whole problem with faith is this - it is arbitrary. So one faith is just as defensible as any other since there is no rational reason to believe any of it. Personally, I think faith is it is an abdication of one's responsibility to care about the truth of things.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Hmm--

"So you see folks, the soul is like a really loud fart. You can't see it, but you can certainly smell it!"

Yeah, that's a really convincing argument.

 

[Tricky]

"So you see folks, the soul is like a really loud fart. You can't see it, but you can certainly smell it!"

I must disagree. It is a well known axiom of mephitology that the loudness of a rectal eruction or "botty burp" is inversely proportional to the potency of said discharge. Indeed, the most olfactorally debilitating of sphinctral spasms is the terrifying Silent But Deadly.

Interestingly, the inverse relationship of volume to potency is equally applicable to the gasseous discharges known as Wooposts.

 

[Brian-M]

I've asked the following question of others and have never received an answer:

When a person's soul leaves their body and goes to another location and they see, hear, smell etc. just as if their body was there, by what mechanisms are they receiving these sensory inputs? If their souls are able to "see" independently of their physical eyes then why can't blind people use this ability to replace their lost vision?

My question is, why haven't any of these astral projectors claimed Randi's million dollars?

 

[Tricky]

My question is, why haven't any of these astral projectors claimed Randi's million dollars?

Projectile disfunction?