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Null Physics anyone?

What perhaps is pathetic is the fact that his detractors seem to be obsessed with "bringing him down"and branding him as a crank.

Obsessed with Witt? Please. There is certainly a strongly addictive element to posting on this forum (as I'm sure you're fully aware), but it has nothing to do with Witt.

If he is as wrong as his detractors say, then he should pose no threat to the current paradigm.

That's not true at all. Astrology is total bunk, and yet it poses a (relatively mild, in my opinion) threat to the current paradigm. Same goes for various other sorts of snake oil.

Is it jealousy of his financial success or because he has the audacity to question and refer to perceived failings of modern science?

Go read a few other threads on this forum - say the one where buzz lightyear claims that various rocks were excreted by giant serpents (it's pretty amusing). Are the naysayers there jealous, or resentful of his "audacity"? Which is it?

Show me any scientist who has been 100% correct in any of his work.
Now be honest about Witt, sure he has made some mistakes according to the current paradigm, but is he 100% wrong? I cant judge either way because I am not qualified, only interested in the subject.

Please re-read your paragraph there. You are equating not quite 100% correctness with not quite 100% wrongness. I've noticed this several times with you - you have a strong tendency to focus on absolutes. Once something isn't absolute it's equivalent to everything else that isn't absolute.

If you say that he is 100% wrong, then I would assume that you have analysed his work extensively. If you haven't , then you are blowing hot air.

What would it mean for something to be 100% wrong? That's as nonsensical as Witt's writings about physics.

These books can be seen in any bookstore world wide and they must be selling or they wouldn't be there. Now you can say that only dodos or morons buy them, but then not everyone can be as clever as Witts detractors and they themselves may well be morons in other fields.

No one has said anything of the kind - where did that straw man come from?

The point is that is easy to anonymously post criticism's of other peoples work, but at least he has the courage to to say this is who I am and this is what I think, whats your opinion of my work?

As an anonymous poster yourself you're on pretty shaky ground there. Regardless, the criticisms posted here are not arguments from the authority of the posters, so their authority on the topic is not relevant. And have you considered the possibility that some posters might prefer to hide their identities and authority precisely so as to allow a more open discussion?
 
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Obsessed with Witt? Please. There is certainly a strongly addictive element to posting on this forum (as I'm sure you're fully aware), but it has nothing to do with Witt. .

Yes,the addictive element is clearly present. Lots of Witt thrills too.



That's not true at all. Astrology is total bunk, and yet it poses a (relatively mild, in my opinion) threat to the current paradigm. Same goes for various other sorts of snake oil..

Please expand on the dangers of astrology.



Go read a few other threads on this forum - say the one where buzz lightyear claims that various rocks were excreted by giant serpents (it's pretty amusing). Are the naysayers there jealous, or resentful of his "audacity"? Which is it?.

Sure, its amusing but hardly serious. Witt is trying to be serious.



Please re-read your paragraph there. You are equating not quite 100% correctness with not quite 100% wrongness. I've noticed this several times with you - you have a strong tendency to focus on absolutes. Once something isn't absolute it's equivalent to everything else that isn't absolute..

Well, how would you grade his book?
All right or all wrong or half half?
100% right is all ticks next to the answers.
100% wrong all crosses next to the answers.
And no gold star either.


What would it mean for something to be 100% wrong? That's as nonsensical as Witt's writings about physics..

Buzzlightyear and serpent excretia (all wrong, 100% wrong, all crosses and no gold star)



No one has said anything of the kind - where did that straw man come from?.

This is a post by Perpetual Student no 527. Here is the "straw man"

Fascinating! This week’s issue (Aug 2, 2008) of Science News includes two full page ads (inside front cover and inside rear cover) for Witt’s book. I’ve lost count of the times I have seen this ad. What is his purpose? Is he a megalomaniac, lusting to see his name in print? Does he really think he will win over the learned physics community by first convincing the general science reading public? Is he some kind of physics Kevin Trudeau, hoping to make millions selling his book to unsuspecting worldwide science dodos? And the biggest question of all is: does he really believe his ill founded theories? As I said, it’s fascinating!



As an anonymous poster yourself you're on pretty shaky ground there. Regardless, the criticisms posted here are not arguments from the authority of the posters, so their authority on the topic is not relevant. And have you considered the possibility that some posters might prefer to hide their identities and authority precisely so as to allow a more open discussion? If some famous physicist were posting here in the clear, many would be afraid to question her statements and the discussion would probably be much more muted and less interesting for all, including her.

Sure I do not exclude myself from being an almost anonymous poster.
My photo is on my avatar, I have stated my profession and in certain threads I have stated precisely where I work. My identity is a easily found given my forum name is a big clue.
Also I try not to pass derogatory comments about anyone, which is more than can be said for a lot of posters on this forum.
The motto of this forum is friendly discussion and do not attack the arguer.
 
The motives of Witt are known only to him.

So how can you justify the statement:

I believe that Witts detractors actually do more good for Null Physics than the odd poster who see's something positive in Null Physics.

?

What perhaps is pathetic is the fact that his detractors seem to be obsessed with "bringing him down"and branding him as a crank.
Why?
If he is as wrong as his detractors say, then he should pose no threat to the current paradigm.
Is it jealousy of his financial success or because he has the audacity to question and refer to perceived failings of modern science?
Well if he went through the peer review system like everyone else his work wouldn't get published. And then we wouldn't be debunking his theory. And you wouldn't be throwing accusations of jealousy round without any evidence. Simple.

The point is that is easy to anonymously post criticism's of other peoples work, but at least he has the courage to to say this is who I am and this is what I think, whats your opinion of my work?
So does everyone who's ever been published in PRL, ApJ, NPA...
 
Please expand on the dangers of astrology.

It's part of a more general threat to the current scientific paradigm, which this forum exists in part to combat. Doing so does not require any extra motivation beyond a general interest in science and skepticism. I'd rather not expand more on that, as it's rather off-topic for this thread.

Well, how would you grade his book?
All right or all wrong or half half?
100% right is all ticks next to the answers.
100% wrong all crosses next to the answers.
And no gold star either.

I haven't read his book, nor will I. My opinion is based on his posts on this forum, the excerpts I've seen of the book, and a few posts on his own forum I saw. I can't assign a number to how wrong he is - I think that would be quite meaningless. For one thing many statements are not even wrong - just gibberish. Many of the rest are true, but are well-known standard physics. I can say that I have not seen anything which originated from him which has any chance of being correct.

Buzzlightyear and serpent excretia (all wrong, 100% wrong, all crosses and no gold star)

OK, good example :). Witt is not as bad as that, I'll grant you.

This is a post by Perpetual Student no 527. Here is the "straw man"

This doesn't seem connected to what you said about Woit and Smollin, but perhaps I misunderstood your earlier comment.

Also I try not to pass derogatory comments about anyone, which is more than can be said for a lot of posters on this forum.

Witt fits all the symptoms of what I consider to be a mild mental illness - he's a classical example of the "I know the theory of everything and everyone that came before is wrong and the establishment is suppressing me because it's afraid of my new ideas" physics crank. Believe it or not, I have personally encountered examples of at least 30 such people in the last decade or so. For something so specific it's far more common than you might think.
 
So how can you justify the statement:...

The statement said nothing about Witts motive.
It was a personal belief about good and bad publicity.




Well if he went through the peer review system like everyone else his work wouldn't get published. And then we wouldn't be debunking his theory. And you wouldn't be throwing accusations of jealousy round without any evidence. Simple....

Since when does posing a question equate to "throwing accusations around". However, if the cap fits,by all means wear it.


So does everyone who's ever been published in PRL, ApJ, NPA...

Agreed. Have you been published?
 
The statement said nothing about Witts motive.
It was a personal belief about good and bad publicity.
So in what sense do you think this thread is doing Null Physics good?

Since when does posing a question equate to "throwing accusations around". However, if the cap fits,by all means wear it.
As I read it, your question implied it was a distinct possibility. I could have misunderstood you of course.

Agreed. Have you been published?

Not yet. But my name should be on at least two papers being submitted to peer reviewed journals in the next year.
 
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With respect to the addictiveness of this forum, I cant wait for winter to be over so I cant indulge in my other addiction, Amateur Astronomy and Astrophotography. Perhaps I can win one of Witts monthly photo competitions. $500US to ZAR is a tidy sum. Some new astrogear perhaps.
Then you wont be hearing too much from me.
 
So in what sense do you think this thread is doing Null Physics good?.

I've been through this in earlier posts


As I read it, your question implied it was a distinct possibility. I could have misunderstood you of course..

No problem

Not yet. But my name should be on at least two papers being submitted to peer reviewed journals in the next year.

I am looking forward to reading these papers. Be sure to let me know where to find them once published. Good for you.
 
Skwinty:

I will state why I find Witt’s book so objectionable. The following is taken from his own web site:

“Terence Witt studied physics at Oregon State University, but soon became disenchanted with the emptiness of its standard models and switched his major to electrical engineering. Witt graduated with a BSEE in 1984.”

Well, that’s it! As an undergraduate, he decided the standard models of physics were wrong. All the geniuses of the twentieth century:

Einstein
Bohr
Schroedinger
Heisenberg
Born
Feynman
Hawking
Others (omitted due to my ignorance)

Are wrong! A BS student at Oregon State decided they were all wrong!

His education went as far as a BS in EE!

Based on comments I’ve read on this and his own forum, much of what he says does not stack up to experimental evidence, which is the whole point of physics – to explain what actually happens in the real world. Further, the mathematics he uses (concerning infinity) is ludicrous.

He has written a book to the general science reading public instead of a paper (or book) for peer review. Is the average accountant, dentist or astronomer who reads his book supposed to convince the learned word of physicists of the worth of his theories? What more is there to say?
 
Skwinty:

I will state why I find Witt’s book so objectionable. The following is taken from his own web site:

“Terence Witt studied physics at Oregon State University, but soon became disenchanted with the emptiness of its standard models and switched his major to electrical engineering. Witt graduated with a BSEE in 1984.”

Well, that’s it! As an undergraduate, he decided the standard models of physics were wrong. All the geniuses of the twentieth century:

Einstein
Bohr
Schroedinger
Heisenberg
Born
Feynman
Hawking
Others (omitted due to my ignorance)

Are wrong! A BS student at Oregon State decided they were all wrong!

His education went as far as a BS in EE!

So a big part of your objection is that he only has a Bachelor's Degree?

Are you serious?

:eye-poppi
 
So a big part of your objection is that he only has a Bachelor's Degree?

Are you serious?

It wasn't my argument, but I don't see what you find invalid about it. Obviously a formal degree doesn't prove one understands anything, and the lack of one doesn't prove one doesn't understand it. It is, however, a very strong indication.

Suppose I came along with a miracle cure for the common cold. All of modern medicine is wrong, I say, totally wrong - there are no such things as these invisible "viruses" doctors talk about. I have a much simpler and easier to understand mechanism - you just have to avoid moonlight at all costs, and your cold will be cured (after all, the moon is a cold place!). No one will listen because my theory threatens the whole medical establishment - they just have too much to lose.

What would you think about that? If you found out that my medical qualifications stopped at a bachelor's in psychology (a subject more closely connected to medicine than EE is to the kind of physics Witt is discussing), would that not be a rather important piece of evidence in the case for my quackulence?
 
Perpetual Student:

I'll start with a direct quote from Witts book.

"Yet after all the progress - after Socrates, Aristotle and Lucretius paved the way for Newton, Planck and Einstein, after tens of thousands of scientists have probed deeply into Nature - no-one has a clue of "WHY" the universe is here, how it really works, or what it is ultimately composed of" end quote.

The main complaint here, as I see it, is that science doesnt ask the "WHY". Now, I dont interprete this as meaning that science is wrong, rather that science is concerned with theories that agree with measurement and observation.

Freeman Dyson says the following

"This is often the way it is in physics - our mistake is not that we take our
theories too seriously, but that we do not take them seriously enough. It is always hard to realize that these numbers and equations we play with at our desks have something to do with the real world. Even worse, there often seems to be a general agreement that certain phenomena are just not fit subjects for respectable theoretical and experimental effort..............But as soon as we mention the words value and
purpose, we run into one of the most firmly entrenched taboos of
twentieth-century science. Hear the voice of Jacques Monod (1970), high priest of scientific rationality, in his book _Chance and Necessity_:

"Any mingling of knowledge with values is unlawful, forbidden."

Monod was one of the seminal minds in the flowering of molecular biology in this century. It takes some courage to defy his anathema. But I will defy him, and encourage others to do so. The taboo against mixing knowledge with values arose during the nineteenth century out of the great battle between the evolutionary biologists led by Thomas Huxley and the churchmen led by Bishop Wilberforce. Huxley won the battle, but a hundred years later Monod and Weinberg were still fighting Bishop Wilberforce's ghost. Physicists today have no reason to be afraid of Wilberforce's ghost. If our analysis of the long-range future leads us to raise questions related to the ultimate meaning and purpose of life, then let us examine these questions boldly and without embarrassment. If our answers to these questions are naive and preliminary, so much the better for the continued vitality of our science..................................... .Goedel proved [see Nagel and Newman (1956)] that the world of pure mathematics is inexhaustible; no finite set of axioms and rules of inference can ever encompass the whole of mathematics; given any finite set of axioms, we can find meaningful mathematical questions which the axioms leave unanswered." end quote.

It has often been stated by posters on this thread who have devoted much to the study of science, that the purpose of science is to describe reality and not explain it.

When lay men ask the "WHY" question of scientists, the answer is often that it is a meaningless question or the layman does not have the knowledge and understanding of science.

Now, I agree that some of Witts statements have been provocative to say the least, so a back lash is not unexpected. However, in my opinion, a lot of his descriptions make sense, although I cannot comment on the math and most of the physics as I am not qualified to do so.

With respect to the list of great scientists, whom you say Witt has said are wrong, I looked up all references to the greats in his book.
Witt mentions most on your list and a number of others not on your list.

From what I see, he never said they were wrong, in fact he states that he bases his theories on logical extensions of their physics.
If he takes issue with some of their conclusions then he is doing what every scientist does.

I agree that the infinity issue sounds ludicrous, but then has infinity really been tamed. Read the thread "Are we allergic to infinity" and see the range of opinions.

Agreed, he never went the route of peer review and that was an error, if the objective was to be accepted by the scientific community.

However, when you consider his prime questions, what would the scientific community have to say.
Here are his prime questions.

quote
1.Why does the universe exist?
2.Where did it come from?
3.What, at the smallest level is it made of?
4.What caused it?
5.What existed before the beginning?
6.Where did all the material come from?
7.Why did the Big Bang happen and does time predate the Big Bang?
end quote.

Are these questions not worthy of an answer and will mainstream science answer these questions?

Sol: Benjamin Franklin was a politician who discovered electricity. Bill Gates was a college student who pioneered the personal computer. Michael Faraday was a bookbinder who rewrote electromagnetism
 
Sol: Benjamin Franklin was a politician who discovered electricity. Bill Gates was a college student who pioneered the personal computer. Michael Faraday was a bookbinder who rewrote electromagnetism

Did you even read what I wrote? Your examples are completely irrelevant (not to mention wrong).

As for your list of questions (which are rather redundant, by the way), they are mostly well within the purvue of mainstream cosmology. Real scientists are working on questions like those very actively, publishing countless papers and books. These are people that actually have an education in the field, that have bothered to learn what we know about physics so far, what experiment and observation tells us, which past theories have succeeded and which have failed. They have put in the years and years of hard work necessary to understand the advanced mathematics that goes into modern physics. They submit their papers for review, accept corrections, compare their predictions to experiments, and learn from their mistakes. These are people spread across the world, some alone, most in groups, collaborating, discussing, talking with each other and with physicists in other areas. I don't know if they will ever answer those questions, but it's perfectly possible.

That's science. What Witt does is delusional.
 
With respect to the addictiveness of this forum, I cant wait for winter to be over so I cant indulge in my other addiction, Amateur Astronomy and Astrophotography. Perhaps I can win one of Witts monthly photo competitions. $500US to ZAR is a tidy sum. Some new astrogear perhaps.
Then you wont be hearing too much from me.
Still talking about money. $500 is not a tidy sum. It won't even fill the fuel tanks on a semi.
 
Did you even read what I wrote? Your examples are completely irrelevant (not to mention wrong).

.

The young Michael Faraday, one of four children, having only the most basic of school educations, had to largely educate himself.[5] At fourteen he became apprenticed to a local bookbinder and bookseller George Riebau and, during his seven-year apprenticeship, he read many books, including Isaac Watts' The Improvement of the Mind, and he enthusiastically implemented the principles and suggestions contained therein. He developed an interest in science and specifically in electricity.

Benjamin Franklin (January 17, 1706 [O.S. January 6, 1705]April 17, 1790) was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America. A noted polymath, Franklin was a leading author and printer, satirist, political theorist politician, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman and diplomat. As a scientist he was a major figure in the Enlightenment and the history of physics for his discoveries and theories regarding electricity.

Gates is one of the best-known entrepreneurs of the personal computer revolution.
After Intel released the Intel 8080 CPU, Gates realized that this was the first computer chip which cost less than $200 that could run BASIC, making it the most affordable chip at the time to run inside a personal computer.[16]

REF WIKIPEDIA
 
Still talking about money. $500 is not a tidy sum. It won't even fill the fuel tanks on a semi.

Convert it to South African Rands and its about R3500.00.

My 40 litre tank holds about R400.00 worth of gas.
R3500.00 will buy some stuff here.
 
Obviously a formal degree doesn't prove one understands anything, and the lack of one doesn't prove one doesn't understand it. It is, however, a very strong indication.

Yes i did read your post, and my examples relate to the statement in bolding

Suppose I came along with a miracle cure for the common cold. All of modern medicine is wrong, I say, totally wrong - there are no such things as these invisible "viruses" doctors talk about. I have a much simpler and easier to understand mechanism - you just have to avoid moonlight at all costs, and your cold will be cured (after all, the moon is a cold place!). No one will listen because my theory threatens the whole medical establishment - they just have too much to lose.

Who are you appealing to with this example, ducks, must be given your quackery.
 

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