Why is prostitution illegal?

Maybe. Or perhaps you have a need to justify paying someone for sex by imagining the average prostitute's life is far happier than it actually is.

No, I really don't.


Well I'm sure glad we have you to tell us how and how we should not be happy to live our lives. Thanks.

I don't understand the question.

Do you want to help them out? Do you arguments of objectification still apply? Are men still in power when it's a woman buying the services?

Men who are arrested for buying sex, as well as being punished, are offered help to alter their behaviour.

So castration then?

How many prostitutes have been abused, raped, are habitual drugs users, or have STD's? Are these not problems?

How many non-prostitutes have been abused, raped, are habitual drugs users, or have STD's? Are these not problems?

Part of the problem here is you seem to believe the majority of prostitutes want to be prostitutes.

Part of the problem is that you're content to assume that the vast majority of prostitutes don't want to be prostitutes. I wonder what actual experience you have of the situations. I've seen quite a few ****ed up things in this regard. I also recognise the canards you present for what they are.
 
Why is the goal to reduce prostitution? Why can't the goal be help the people who want to get out to help them get out; support the people who enjoy the business like any other job; punish the people who are using the system and the workers illegally, just like any other business; and not punish the people who want to partake in this service like any other service?

Because prostitution is generally undesirable. Legal brothels only help those women who can work in them. Where to the large numbers of women who turn to prostitution to fund a drug habit go? IMO having legal brothels sends the wrong signal about how we should treat each other - it reduces human sexuality and women to a commodity. It demeans men.
 
Because prostitution is generally undesirable.

And it isn't that undesirable to some people. And hey, lots of jobs are "generally undesirable".

Legal brothels only help those women who can work in them. Where to the large numbers of women who turn to prostitution to fund a drug habit go? IMO having legal brothels sends the wrong signal about how we should treat each other - it reduces human sexuality and women to a commodity. It demeans men.

People reading "Pick Up Girls In Thirty Days!" are reducing human sexuality.

Seriously, what sort of soap box terminology is that?

Your personal emotional views don't necessarily translate to everyone else's.
 
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IMO having legal brothels sends the wrong signal about how we should treat each other - it reduces human sexuality and women to a commodity.

So let's get real - at the end of the day you don't like the idea of sex if it doesn't come with flowers and chocolates attached right?

Prostitution is just the tip of the world of ****ed up human sexuality.

It demeans men.

IYO - and why is that a concern of yours exactly anyway?
 
http://www.socialstyrelsen.se/NR/rdonlyres/A688D624-4505-431F-A9CF-DCD7C12D0539/2719/200413128.pdf

Prostitution as an occupation
There is one view of prostitution that did not emerge from your interviews, but should be mentioned nevertheless. Research conducted in The Netherlands found that one-fourth of the 187 women included in the study who sold sex were content with their work (Vanwesenbeeck, 1994). However, the remaining 75 per cent of the women engaged in prostitution were in poorer health than a control group of non-prostitutes.21

Thus, 25 per cent of the women regarded prostitution as a simple business enterprise which could provide job satisfaction and was comparable to any other kind of work. "Sex worker" is the term used in The Netherlands where, as in several other countries, there are labour unions which seek to improve
working conditions for both men and women engaged in prostitution. 22.

This concept of prostitution predominates in The Netherlands and several other European countries. Prostitution, sex-purchasing and bordellos are legal in several member-states of the European Union (EU). The extent of sex-purchasing and prostitution is greater in most of those countries than in Sweden. The fact that Sweden is a member of the EU, where acceptance of prostitution is more widespread, may of course influence public debate and efforts to eliminate prostitution in Sweden. There are, for example, prominent Swedish public debaters who advocate the approach of The Netherlands and other countries with similar policies.

[Notes]

21 One-fourth of the 187 women suffered from serious stress, with poor physical and mental health, and a strong tendency to risk-taking behaviour. Other women– fifty per cent of the 187– formed an intermediate subgroup with poorer health than the control group. Determining how these women felt were primarily such factors as childhood experiences, their financial situations, survival and control strategies (e.g. switching off emotions, trivializing physical or psychological abuse), support from other women, and contacts with sexpurchasers.
See Månsson & Hedin (1998) for a useful summary of Vanwesenbeeck's study and a discussion of the results in relation to other research on prostitution.

22 See, for example, interview with Rosinha Sambo in Hivaktuellt 2003:4.

What were you saying, Cyborg?
 
I'm off to bed. I'll be back tomorrow to kick your asses.;)

I leave you with a line from the film 8mm:

"The devil doesn't change, you do."
 
What were you saying, Cyborg?

Thus, 25 per cent of the women regarded prostitution as a simple business enterprise which could provide job satisfaction and was comparable to any other kind of work.

BAN IT NOW!!!

Seriously, I don't quite understand why you think my stand would change - you're the one with the unrealistic expectations and the imposition of moral standards that not everyone shares. I presume you would want this 25% to stop doing the work they do whether or not they wanted to do so in order that you could ensure the other 75% definitely couldn't so that they could be "protected".

I don't know exactly how you think making it illegal will achieve anything of the sort - you're going to waste at least 25% of your time trying to help people who don't need help.
 
Because prostitution is generally undesirable.
Your opinion. Period. Some people will agree, some not. Hey, a lot of people think that being "spiritually religious" is a generally desirable trait. Does that mean it's always true?
Sorry, your opinion.

Legal brothels only help those women who can work in them.
True. I agree. So let's make them all legal and help women (and men) who are in the industry instead of punishing all of them...

Where to the large numbers of women who turn to prostitution to fund a drug habit go?
Dunno. Since prostitution is illegal, there's not much of a choice. Maybe when it's legal, they can more easily get help for their habit.

IMO having legal brothels sends the wrong signal about how we should treat each other - it reduces human sexuality and women to a commodity. It demeans men.
Your opinon. Too bad you see it that way. Perhaps if people see women (and men) who give pleasure to people who need it not as someone who is reducing human sexuality, but helping a fellow human being feel companionship, give comfort and release, and be help remove loneliness for a while, it might not seen as "reducing human sexuality"....


'sides, couldn't that be said about marriage? I hear "Don't have sex until you're married" by "moral" people all the time. Doesn't that reduce human sexuallity to a commodity? "No sex until we're married. Oh...and by the way, the engagement ring should cost at least two months of your salary. Ooooo! Also if we ever get divorced, you have to give me half your stuff and salary...."

...hmmm. Sounds like prostitution to me........
 
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And I'm pointing out there are more than two, and the forced dichotomy is a false one. Given the right combination of attached conditions, I could foresee either way being supported --- I can see either position being supportable if the right conditions are combined. Additionally, it looks to me like this has become an unrealistic ideological battle-thread, and I don't see why it need be so; I prefer meandering discussions based on realism and actual life examples. I just prefer real life in all its horrible complexity to forcing simplistic choices.

You don't prefer 'real life', you prefer forcing shades of grey onto a dichotomous question. Again, the legal/illegal question is a legitimate dichotomy. Just because there are many positions contained WITHIN the legal/illegal dichotomy doesn't stop it from being dichotomous any more than a Macdonalds employee asking a customer if they want fries with their meal is a false dichotomy because there are different sizes of fries.

Stop calling fallacies where they don't exist and just deal with the fact that some questions only have two answers.

Additionally, I've worked in the treatment and rehab of young alkies and druggies, many of whom were prosis. For me, this isn't just some abstract theoretical discussion where people can prove themselves "right".

Really? Well, let me be the first to say, "I don't give a rat's ass."

Only choices for a debate: Is speech free or not? False binary.
Only choices for a debate: Is an (unspecified) criticism justified or not? False binary

Thus my small example of libel; libel law and cases (and all its history) illustrate why the above two are false dichotomies.

Funny. See, in all the libel cases I had to study, in every single one the judge came to a decision at the end, and issued a judgment in favour of either the plaintiff or the defendant. In not one case was the same act ruled as being simultaneously legal and illegal - it is always one or the other (and that ruling then sets the precedent for future cases in deciding what is legal or illegal).

So, again, you are incorrect. Your small example of libel would have done better had you put a bit of research into what you were talking about. But then, that might have messed up your imaginary shades of grey.
 
Because prostitution is generally undesirable.

Sorry, I think my computer is playing up. See, I know you meant to say, "In my biased and unqualified opinion, prostitution is generally undesirable." But for some reason the first part is missing.

Anyone else having this problem with Opera?
 
Sorry, I think my computer is playing up. See, I know you meant to say, "In my biased and unqualified opinion, prostitution is generally undesirable." But for some reason the first part is missing.

Anyone else having this problem with Opera?

...I'm using Firefox... but it seems to have the same problem.... :D

But wait, there was something else that was bothering me....what was it? Hmmm

Oh yeah, this statement:

It demeans men.

So wait....you are so concerned about how a man is demeaned by purchasing a prostitute's services, yet the man is the one who is more powerful, by your own words,

It's the oldest profession simply because men had and have more power than women.

so...if men have so much more power over women, how can a man, going to a woman prostitute, be demeaned? I mean, he does have so much more power over her. So how is it demeaning to us more powerful men?
 
In order to find out if Sweden's laws lessen the exploitation of women as compared to legalized prostitution, you need to find a way to measure exploitation and then compare the various methods implemented to find out which lessens the exploitation the most. My study provided that. Your position (Ivor) is that keeping prostitution illegal, but focusing the punishment on the clients is better.

Sweden's method seems to mean that prostitutes are less likely to get beat up then in places where the prostitutes are arrested--that is true; women who work in places where it's legal, however, have better protection of the law and money for treatment regarding drug addiction--also, they have an incentive... (a high paying job they want to keep) for doing so... There is no evidence that the women in Sweden feel less like they "have" to have sex for money-- or that even one women has experienced less "exploitation"--your claimed goal. Sweden's goal seems to take away the ickier social aspects of prostitution... they do have less trafficking-- it doesn't mean that less women are trafficked.

Trafficking, nonconsensual sex, and violence are already against the law. Loitering is also against the law in many cases. Most states have laws to deal with the social problems with the sex trade. Legalizing and taxing the profession gives you more resources to enforce those laws-- all laws where nonconsensual sex occurs.

A majority of women involved in the sex trade have indeed been abused sexually-- this means that for many years, people were taking sex from them-- many feel empowered to finally be able to get paid for what others have taken freely. Taking sex form an unwilling partner is much more exploitative, don't you think? Having a pimp take a girls money and beat her up is also more exploitative. So is making her afraid of losing her livelihood by going to the police.

In order to make a case that a given method lessens the exploitation of women--(your supposed goal) you'd need to compare it to other methods and have a statistical means of measuring "exploitation" as my article did. There have been many documentaries and many books on the subject. I've read and watched many. We all have a vested interest in protecting vulnerable people in our societies. But we really don't have a right to regulate who consenting adults have sex with and the reasons they do so or what consenting adults do in private-- whether it involves the exchange of money for orgasms or not.

When choosing a method for dealing with a problem-- you need to define the goal... find a means of measuring so that you can see which methods are the best for reaching that goal. There are male prostitutes, transgendered prostitutes, people with fetishes, people who are turned on by anonymous sex, men who feel insecure due to virginity, men who recently lost spouses-- there are men willing to pay or barter for sex and partners of both genders willing to make that trade. Sweden's solution may be better than traditional methods of handling illegal prostitution, but you have offered nothing to suggest that Sweden's method is better than places where it's legalized in regards to "exploitation of women" or women feeling like they have to have sex for money.

In many cases through out history, prostitutes have had in much better than their non-prostitute counterparts in regards to control, finances, and exploitation. Many men consider their wives people who must give them sex on demand. How is that less exploitative than what a prostitute is subject to?

Laura Shaner's book on the subject and interviews with the women is a good source for hearing what women had to say on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheri's_Ranch

It's the prostitutes themselves and the clients who use them whose voices need to be heard in regards to deciding whether prostitution should be legalized, regulated, illegal, and who should get punished and how for what... and what sort of treatments and so forth should be offered at what cost and what sort of ways they feel exploited and how those things might be addressed.

Non consensual sex is already illegal. Nobody has made a valid case as to why prostitution between consenting adults should be as far as I can tell. Humans are free to have sex with whom they want and humans are free to give their money to whom they want.
 
Just ask any Christian Fundie, they will tell you. Sex is dirty, sex outside of marrige is immoral, and prostitution is burn-in-hell evil.

The moral aspect of this issue is nothing whatsoever to do with sex
 
The moral aspect of this issue is nothing whatsoever to do with sex

So what exaactly is the moral issue? That prostitution is inherently a male act of violence against women :rolleyes: ?

Seriously, how are prostitutes any more "exploited" than anyone else who has to use the assets they have to make a living, even if they don't like their job? And that is assuming that everyone finds sex work to be undesirable and reduces human sexuality.
 
I think scrubbing hotel rooms or cleaning zoo poop would be a hard way to make a living. I don't think you should ever force people to do these things against their will. However, I trust the market to set the price on these services and would find it invasive if the government tried to protect people from being "exploited" by doing such undesirable jobs.

It's not something I, personally, would want to do if I had a choice... but I would be glad to do it if it the alternative was poverty. If the alternative was doing that and just getting by or being phone sex operator and making a good living-- I'm pretty sure I'd do the latter.

Fiona, you said in another thread that it's wrong to take away someone's choice... and yet in this situation you seem more than willing to take away some peoples choice.

There is a huge difference between consensual sex (including bartering sex for money or goods) and nonconsensual sex where sex is "taken" without regard to what the giver wants.
 
C'mon. A lot of jobs are stressful and have negative health effects. Just like a lot of people don't like doing their jobs.

It has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

LOL!

A study of prostitutes in a country with legalised prostitution has nothing to do with the debate as to whether legalising prostitution achieves what its advocates claim?

All that matters is your belief that it would make things better.
 
Sorry, I think my computer is playing up. See, I know you meant to say, "In my biased and unqualified opinion, prostitution is generally undesirable." But for some reason the first part is missing.

Anyone else having this problem with Opera?

I've yet to meet a person whose opinion is not biased. What qualifications should I be looking into getting?
 

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