Split Thread The Towers should not hve collapsed (split from Gravysites)

Heated up by magic, no less.

No, by fire.


The original video has a much higher resolution than the youtube crap you're looking at.

I've seen high-res broadcast originals. The image is not high enough resolution to resolve the "sparks".


Even on zoomed in youtube vids, what little is visible from the sparks can be interpreted as iron sparks. But they really just look like the ones from molten steel/iron would, except maybe with a lower frequency which can be indeed explained with low resolution of the video material and the lower temperature of the eutectic in its liquid state. Of course, alternative explanations for these sparks are possible.

We don't even know that they're sparks. As I've been saying. The video has insufficient resolution.



It may be wreckage from the planes that magically heated itself up to above 1500°C, far hotter than any amount of hydrocarbon fire would.

Why would it need to be above 1500 degrees C?


If you have a better alternative than both these, I'm readily willing to review it. But for now, the thermite scenario is a better explanation for this observation than the hydrocarbon fire.

No it's not. But I don't buy the aluminium theory either - at least not only aluminium. Personally I think it was probably mainly molten glass.
 
Why would it need to be above 1500 degrees C?
To explain the color. Orange is 800-1100 Yellow is around 1100-1500, yellow-white would be 1500-2000, white is above 2000. It's called blackbody radiation, by determining the color (composition of the spectrum of EM radiation emitted in the visible range) of a sufficiently hot object, you can approximate its temperature. A cooled infrared camera can determine the temperature of items with room temperature, our own "infrared (temperature) vision" simply begins around 450° where stuff begins to glow dark red.

No it's not. But I don't buy the aluminium theory either - at least not only aluminium. Personally I think it was probably mainly molten glass.
The material appears sufficiently opaque. Of course it could be 'dirty' glass, but then still you can't explain the temperature. Glass, according to Wikipedia, melts between 1500 and 2300°C depending on the exact composition of the glass. It becomes plastic much earlier, but it certainly doesn't flow the way it does on the video at office fire temperatures (which range in temperature from realistic 600-800°C to hypothetical 1000-1100°C)
 
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I've clearly exposed the ambiguity of the terminology. If you continue to exhibit this subhuman level of intelligence, I'll just add you to the ignore list.

Go ahead and put me on ignore. My responses are for bystanders and lurkers anyway. I simply point out the errors and misrepresentations in conspiracy fantasies such as yours. If you want to quibble about minituae like the presence of a common ingredient in thermate, go right ahead. But deliberate ignorance of facts is no way to approach social or scientific inquiry, and you are deliberately ignoring the falsifications to the notion of incendiaries.

I see that you're still not acknowledging the presence of therm(a|i)te signatures in the debris. Denying real evidence just gives you more bonus points on "Who goes on my ignore list next"

Then ignore yourself, since you're the one denying real evidence. I'm not failing to acknowledge this so-called evidence. I'm falsifying it. There are no signatures of thermite or thermate left on the steel. There was no melting not attributable to surface eutictic reactions, nor did the separation points between severed beams show any signs of thermite cutting; instead, they showed distortion due to mechanical force. On top of that, there were no sightings of incendiaries use on 9/11, not by witnesses outside the towers or escapees within. And there was never any opportunity to rig the towers or WTC 7 with any such devices.

Does it have to? Is this relevant? What's relevant is this: If thermite was used, there is a good chance for the dust to contain thermite signatures. Oh, it does?

Wrong. It does not. Jones's work fails to establish that any incendiary was used. The presence of particles have a genesis which can be attributed to mundane events like welding during the construction phase of the towers. That simply does not prove thermite or thermate use on that day, or any other day. When you add that to the fact that other observations on that day indicate temperatures inconsistent with Jones hypothesis, it is simply not possible to conclude that such particles were created that day at all.

But, we know welding occurred during the construction of the towers, and that such an activity is a known source of such particles. So, what should the objective observer believe? A proposal that is contradicted by other observations, namely but not limited to the temperature ones? Or one that flows naturally from known events during construction?

The fact is, the particles in the dust identified by Jones simply does not indicate thermite or thermate use at all.

I've read that before. When I talked about horrible failures of attempting to disprove the thermite hypothesis, I was thinking specifically of that one. The guy uses photographs that shouldn't be used to falsify the chemical analysis and eyewitness accounts in the first place. Non sequitur, "I don't have a convincing photograph for thermite usage, hence there is no tiger in the bathroom." The guy doesn't understand basic principles of scientific theory and is about as convincing as the hobo telling me the other day we didn't land on the moon because the photos look shopped.

You do not understand basic principles of scientific theory yourself. For any argument that an incendiary was present and used on 9/11, evidence must exist that such incendiary was there and used. No such evidence exists. Steven Jones's proposition that observed particles indicate such use fail in that the formation of such particles can be attributed to pre-9/11 events, and wouldn't need the presence of an unobserved foreign agent (thermite) to have been formed during that time. It simply requires events known for certain to have occurred during the formation of the towers. You however continue to forward such evidence as if it's accurate, rather than falsified misinterpretations of phenomena that do not correspond to other observations in the towers (for example, the noted temperatures of the steel that was recovered, exterior column bowing, plus the time it took for the impact zone failures to occur. If, for example, Jones is correct about the use of thermite on steel, then more than the steel in the impact zone should show evidence of high temperature reactions, if not outright melting. It does not. Furthermore, the degree of column distortion is consistent with the temperatures NIST proposes, and so is the time before catastrophic failure. The temperatures associated with thermite use not only contradicts the observed amount of bowing, it does not track with any observed timeframe for failure. But you ignore all that in pushing Jones's thermite theory).

Again, you really need to read the following:
http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm

http://www.google.com/search?q=ther...t:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

So go ahead and put me on ignore if you want. Ignore the fact that observations contradict the possibility of thermite. Ignore the fact that Jones's reliance on particles not linked to the events of 9/11 fails to prove any such conclusion. It doesn't matter whether you're convinced or not; this information is out there for people who genuinely want to learn the truth about 9/11. If you want to exclude yourself from that group, go right ahead; nobody here is going to care. You've demonstrated that you'd rather indulge in the fantasies anyway, so instead of engaging you, we'll just use you as an object lesson for the rest of the readers and lurkers here.
 
1337m4n, I'm sorry, I hate to say this, but no, Ba(NO3)2 is not a product, it is an additive.


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/Misc.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermate

The product of thermate combustion would include nitrate and barium oxide. And a basic thermite reaction would simply be combustion between ferrous oxide and aluminum, producing aluminum oxide and plain iron.

I don't want to contradict posters debating truthers here, but unfortunately, the information was wrong. Just wanted to make sure the info here is correct, that's all.

HT: Arkan Wolfshade, back in 2006

Though I retract my jumping to conclusions about the specifics, does my overall point still stand? Should thermite not leave behind telltale signs of its use or presence? Were such signs found at the WTC?

We have Steven Jones's microspheres, of course, but Crazy Chainsaw has already gone over those ad nauseum in other threads. I can't think of anything else.
 
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To explain the color. Orange is 800-1100 Yellow is around 1100-1500, yellow-white would be 1500-2000, white is above 2000. It's called blackbody radiation, by determining the color (composition of the spectrum of EM radiation emitted in the visible range) of a sufficiently hot object, you can approximate its temperature. A cooled infrared camera can determine the temperature of items with room temperature, our own "infrared (temperature) vision" simply begins around 450° where stuff begins to glow dark red.

I understand blackbody radiation - I used to work as an assistant to an armourer. However it's nowhere near as simple as you're explaining it. The actual colouring varies a lot depending on the material being heated. For example, steel begins glowing a faint yellow colour at about 200 degrees C, moves through yellows, oranges, reds and violets into blues and greys before starting back into red and then rising again through cherry, orange, salmon, yellow, lemon, and white. The amount of molecular defects in glass, the fact that it doesn't really have a melting point, and the fact that it contains little in the way of black body material makes it a poor choice for applying black body radiation.

This is all, of course, before even considering the colour balance of the video camera.



The material appears sufficiently opaque.

At that resolution it would be impossible to tell.


Of course it could be 'dirty' glass, but then still you can't explain the temperature. Glass, according to Wikipedia, melts between 1500 and 2300°C depending on the exact composition of the glass. It becomes plastic much earlier, but it certainly doesn't flow the way it does on the video at office fire temperatures (which range in temperature from realistic 600-800°C to hypothetical 1000-1100°C)

This is all incorrect, of course. Some glasses flow freely at temperatures as low as 500 degrees C. Glass doesn't actually have a "melting point" what you've cited is the liquidis temperature.
 
Repeat the investigation of Prof. Jones regarding the composition, structure and origin of the metallic microspheres in the dust and from a range of samples on the actual steel in the debris.

Created by the magical thermite right?
 
Though I retract my jumping to conclusions about the specifics, does my overall point still stand? Should thermite not leave behind telltale signs of its use or presence? Were such signs found at the WTC?

We have Steven Jones's microspheres, of course, but Crazy Chainsaw has already gone over those ad nauseum in other threads. I can't think of anything else.

My apologies, all I was trying to do was point out that the Ba(NO3)2 was not a product of thermate combustion, but rather an original ingredient. It actually disassociates into barium oxide and nitrates during the reaction, and those would be the signs that thermate had combusted. But I agree with the rest of that statement: Thermite would indeed leave behind numerous telltale signs, not the least of which would be obvious melting/cutting characteristics on the steel components!

I hesitate to say that "thermite" i.e. the basic, root components would never be found. After all, those components are merely aluminum and iron oxide, both of which was present in insane abundance at the towers. The question is whether there's any indication that there's some actual thermite combustion, not merely ingredients present. The evidence of combustion other than small, localized, natural reactions is nil.

And yes, agreed on CC's discussion of microspheres. I'll read Jones work over again at some point and see if there are any other characteristics he brings up. I can't recall any at the moment.
 
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Repeat the investigation of Prof. Jones regarding the composition, structure and origin of the metallic microspheres in the dust and from a range of samples on the actual steel in the debris.

Is this the only evidence for your theory then?
 
My apologies, all I was trying to do was point out that the Ba(NO3)2 was not a product of thermate combustion, but rather an original ingredient. It actually disassociates into barium oxide and nitrates during the reaction, and those would be the signs that thermate had combusted. But I agree with the rest of that statement: Thermite would indeed leave behind numerous telltale signs, not the least of which would be obvious melting/cutting characteristics on the steel components!

I hesitate to say that "thermite" i.e. the basic, root components would never be found. After all, those components are merely aluminum and iron oxide, both of which was present in insane abundance at the towers. The question is whether there's any indication that there's some actual thermite combustion, not merely ingredients present. The evidence of combustion other than small, localized, natural reactions is nil.

And yes, agreed on CC's discussion of microspheres. I'll read Jones work over again at some point and see if there are any other characteristics he brings up. I can't recall any at the moment.

There is no need to apologize; you are correcting errors. That is what skeptics do.

What you say makes me wonder, though: if the necessary components of thermite were abundant within the Towers, and there were also plenty of "sparks" (eg an airplane impact, raging fires, a collapsing building, etc) is it possible that a small-scale thermite reaction could have occurred all on its own, without needing any evil conspiracy?
 
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I'm still waiting for any truther to show me what power on earth could have stopped the upper 15 floors of the WTC after the first 0.5 seconds of slippage.

ETA - Please don't say god or I will ask why he (or she) saved the cross at the WTC instead of the almost 3000 people that died.
 
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I'm still waiting for any truther to show me what power on earth could have stopped the upper 15 floors of the WTC after the first 0.5 seconds of slippage.

ETA - Please don't say god or I will ask why he (or she) saved the cross at the WTC instead of the almost 3000 people that died.

Perhaps a non-benevolent god, like Khorne or Cthulhu. :D
 
Heated up by magic, no less.


If you were born, say, 300,000 years ago and currently speaking to fellow "cavemen", that might have some weight. These days, however, the enlightened peoples of the earth call it "fire".
 
What you say makes me wonder, though: if the necessary components of thermite were abundant within the Towers, and there were also plenty of "sparks" (eg an airplane impact, raging fires, a collapsing building, etc) is it possible that a small-scale thermite reaction could have occurred all on its own, without needing any evil conspiracy?

Yes. Bringing Al and Fe2O3 together at sufficiently high temperature will result in simultaneous oxidation of Al and reduction of Fe (thermite is simply a redox reaction). However, reaction rates will be limited by surface area (and by extension, particle size). Self-sustaining thermite reactions need the reactants to be finely divided and intimately mixed.
 
The charges would be ignited via remote control, not requiring any cabling.


Newtons Bit said:
One of the problems the NYFD had on the 1993 WTC bombing is that their radios didn't work in the stairwells.


With the mass of NYFD radio transmissions that succeeded from the tower's stairwell in 2001, what do you suggest?

Please address this issue again Dubljuh. Are you suggesting that radio transmissions were intermittent in the WTC? If there was even a chance the radio signal couldn't get to some of the charges it would make radio initiation unfeasible. If some of the charges ignite and some don't the results will be completely unpredictable. Therefore it would required the miles and miles of det cord or shocktube I suggested earlier. Just add this to the MANY problems your theory has yet to overcome.

LLH
 
Please address this issue again Dubljuh. Are you suggesting that radio transmissions were intermittent in the WTC? If there was even a chance the radio signal couldn't get to some of the charges it would make radio initiation unfeasible. If some of the charges ignite and some don't the results will be completely unpredictable. Therefore it would required the miles and miles of det cord or shocktube I suggested earlier. Just add this to the MANY problems your theory has yet to overcome. LLH
No, this is a load of BS. That's a non-problem. Any issues with diminished reception inside the core can be resolved by simply using a stronger transmitter from a closer distance. The argument that the core somehow would produce a faraday's cage is a proven complete fabrication. Using RC is perfectly feasible.
 
Yes. Bringing Al and Fe2O3 together at sufficiently high temperature will result in simultaneous oxidation of Al and reduction of Fe (thermite is simply a redox reaction). However, reaction rates will be limited by surface area (and by extension, particle size). Self-sustaining thermite reactions need the reactants to be finely divided and intimately mixed.
Also note that office fire temperatures are not sufficient in initiating a thermite reaction. The scenario of naturally ocurring rust in the building to somehow have initiated a thermite reaction is completely improbable.
 
If you were born, say, 300,000 years ago and currently speaking to fellow "cavemen", that might have some weight. These days, however, the enlightened peoples of the earth call it "fire".
Bring me an office fire that burns 1500-2000°C hot. Doesn't happen. That means the "fire heated it up" theory is completely improbable and thermite remains the most probable explanation for the observed phenomenon.
 
For example, steel begins glowing a faint yellow colour at about 200 degrees C, moves through yellows, oranges, reds and violets
At this point I stopped reading and put you on ignore. There's no use in reading the arguments of people who apparently spend most of their "scientific investigation" whacked out on LSD.

Keep it civil. Don't accuse people of drug use or insanity, temporary or otherwise. Attack the argument, and not the person making the argument.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jmercer
 
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