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Merged Edgar Cayce

I particularly like #1: "It does not matter how many satisfied patients there are, this is worthless as evidence." So, even if a lot of highly-credible people who have been ravaged by psoriasis their entire lives sign affidavits stating that they have been cured by Pagano's treatment -- based upon Cayce's readings -- this means nothing. After all, in the final analysis, it's not quality of life that counts -- it's whether whatever quality of life one experiences is confirmed by a double-blind study!
Yes, exactly, and the fact that you don't understand this is the problem.

People lie. To themselves. All. The. Time.

It is a known psychological fact. We all do it, all the time. The only way to see the truth without corrupting it to fit our own biases is a double-blind study. This is not just true of medical conditions; it is true of what we choose for dinner. Remember all those coffee commercials? Remember Penn & Teller selling water out of a hose for $7 a bottle? Remember Mark Twain putting fancy labels on his fifty-cent-a-barrel cigars?

The problem here seems to be that you just don't understand human nature very well.

The other problem is that you don't seem to agree with the strategy of first obtaining the best objective result you can, and only then adding on percieved results. People who take pain meds and focus on the pain will suffer more than people who take pain meds and focus on the good times; but people who don't take pain meds suffer more than either of those groups.
 
With whom did you speak, Rodney? Would you forward a copy of that e-mail to me at joefox@paintmytroops.com ?
I didn't speak with anybody, but I sent an e-mail to the ARE, and received a response from Richard Peterson, Archives Coordinator. I just forwarded it to the e-mail address that you gave. Mr. Peterson did acknowledge that he had a call from someone else with almost the same question -- presumably that was you.
 
No, it's not puzzling at all. Prior to Hebra, it was a common misconception that psoriasis was infectious. An English dermatologist named Willan identified psoriasis as a distinct disease around 1800, but it didn't help that he called it Leprosa Graecorum. The fact of the matter is, psoriasis is not infectious, and Cayce's "knowledge" of psoriasis was probably based on outdated, or just plain wrong, information. Or he was just making it up.
But Cayce never said that psoriasis is contagious. Read in context, Cayce seemed to be using "infectious" to mean "can affect."

Sure, the immune system's job is to fight off "infection and other disease" (nota bene: "toxins" do not fall under that description). That's not what's happening in the case of psoriasis. The immune system is doing something other than what it is supposed to do, which is why psoriasis is classed as an immune disorder.
But what causes the immune system to do something other than what it is supposed to do?

Incorrect; psoriasis is caused by the immune system's response to certain stimuli, as the UMDNJ bit states. But before you try to weasel out of that by playing semantics with the meaning of the verb "affect," the above question isn't valid anyway, because you don't get to pick only those bits of Cayce's words which are convenient to you, i.e. count the "hits" (which aren't actually hits) and ignore the misses.
The valid question is: Was Cayce correct or incorrect when he stated that "psoriasis is an infectious condition that affects the emunctory and lymph circulation"? In bold the inconvenient bits you tried to sweep under the carpet, Rodney. Inconvenient because they are what makes Cayce's statement unequivocally incorrect.
(Note: "emunctory," according to Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary means "an organ (as a kidney) or part of the body (as the skin) that carries off body wastes." If psoriasis affects the kidneys, it's the first I've heard of it, and observing that psoriasis affects the skin isn't exactly going to win you the Nobel Prize for Medicine.)
Then I have an eye-opener for you. According to -- http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/psoriasis.jsp -- "Pustular psoriasis usually occurs in adults. It is characterized by blister-like lesions filled with non-infectious pus and surrounded by reddened skin. Pustular psoriasis, which can be limited to one part of the body (localized) or can be widespread, may be the first symptom of psoriasis or develop in a patient with chronic plaque psoriasis.

"Generalized pustular psoriasis is also known as Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis. Widespread, acutely painful patches of inflamed skin develop suddenly. Pustules appear within a few hours, then dry and peel within two days.

"Generalized pustular psoriasis can make life-threatening demands on the heart and kidneys."

Moreover, if you want claim that Cayce was on to something in reading 943-17, it means he was wrong all those times he blathered about "eliminations," "toxins" and "humors" (the man was using the term humor without irony in the 1930s and 1940s!) being carried by, variously, the "lymph circulation" or the "blood system." And those instances occur significantly more frequently, so he must have been wrong almost all the time. Not to mention the bit about psoriasis being caused by "nerve tensions" as a result of a lack of "vital forces." So even if there were something to reading 943-17 (which there isn't, except by some extremely tortuous reasoning and a massive dose of confirmation bias), that would have appeared to have been a fluke at best. Hey, throw enough darts at a dartboard...
What proof do you have that these statements are incorrect? And what was the source for Cayce's medical knowledge?
 
But Cayce never said that psoriasis is contagious. Read in context, Cayce seemed to be using "infectious" to mean "can affect."
"Seemed"? Not good enough. Prove it.
And while you're asserting that Cayce's use of any word need not necessarily correspond to the commonly understood meaning of that word, and that we can therefore discard the dictionary in the context of this thread, you can also prove that any word or concept Cayce ever used meant what it is commonly understood to mean. You can start by proving that "14,000" actually means "14,000" in Cayce-speak, and not, say, "30,000."

But what causes the immune system to do something other than what it is supposed to do?
The "unknown stimuli" mentioned in the UMDNJ bit you quoted earlier. These cause the immune system to malfunction, and produce the collection of symptoms which are known as psoriasis. The malfunctioning of the immune system is the cause, psoriasis is the effect. By stating that "psoriasis is an infectious condition that affects the emunctory and lymph circulation," Cayce is claiming that psoriasis is the cause, not the effect.

"Generalized pustular psoriasis can make life-threatening demands on the heart and kidneys."
Fascinating. Of course, this does not apply to psoriasis generally, or even to pustular psoriasis, but specifically to Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis. As the NPF website states:
Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis is associated with fever, chills, severe itching, dehydration, a rapid pulse rate, exhaustion, anemia, weight loss and muscle weakness.
From the text of reading 943-17, it appears that the subject was suffering from simple plaque psoriasis; almost certainly not from Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis, as he makes no mention of anyhting that could be interpreted as indicating one or more of the quoted symptoms. Even if he were, though, Cayce's recommendations to the subject would do nothing to help, and would likely be counterproductive.

What proof do you have that these statements are incorrect?
Simply that Cayce made numerous statements, all of which contradicted other statements he made. So even if (and that's a very big "if") he was right some of the time, he must, logically, have been wrong the rest of the time. As it happens, the statement from reading 943-17 you have chosen to defend is the one of the few times Cayce claims that psoriasis is the cause, rather than the effect of the underlying disorder ("psoriasis is - itself - an infectious condition that affects the emunctory and lymph circulation, and causes an improper coordination of the eliminating forces of the system"), you've in effect conceded that Cayce was, at best, wrong way more often than he was right.

And what was the source for Cayce's medical knowledge?
You mean the lack thereof. Who knows? Given how spectacularly wrong he was, even by the standards of the time, we can safely eliminate even contemporary medical science, and certainly any psychic ability. Other than that, we can only speculate; old wives' tales, perhaps, or a cursory reading of medical texts predating the germ theory of disease, stuff he pulled out of his arse, or a combination of the aforegoing. The only thing we can be certain of is that he had no actual understanding of what he was on about.
 
"Seemed"? Not good enough. Prove it.
And while you're asserting that Cayce's use of any word need not necessarily correspond to the commonly understood meaning of that word, and that we can therefore discard the dictionary in the context of this thread, you can also prove that any word or concept Cayce ever used meant what it is commonly understood to mean.
I'll give Cayce a demerit for using the word infectious, but you can't get around the fact that in context he clearly was not saying it was contagious. That would have been a serious error, but he never said that in any reading.

You can start by proving that "14,000" actually means "14,000" in Cayce-speak, and not, say, "30,000."
You're totally off-base here. While Cayce may have given as many as many as 30,000 readings, only 14,306 are available --both at ARE Headquarters and on-line. The idea that the ARE has stashed away about 16,000 readings is a fantasy supported by zero evidence.

The "unknown stimuli" mentioned in the UMDNJ bit you quoted earlier. These cause the immune system to malfunction, and produce the collection of symptoms which are known as psoriasis. The malfunctioning of the immune system is the cause, psoriasis is the effect. By stating that "psoriasis is an infectious condition that affects the emunctory and lymph circulation," Cayce is claiming that psoriasis is the cause, not the effect.
Well, I would have to say that if "[g]eneralized pustular psoriasis can make life-threatening demands on the heart and kidneys", then that type of psoriasis CAUSES some pretty bad problems.

Fascinating. Of course, this does not apply to psoriasis generally, or even to pustular psoriasis, but specifically to Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis. As the NPF website states: "Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis is associated with fever, chills, severe itching, dehydration, a rapid pulse rate, exhaustion, anemia, weight loss and muscle weakness." From the text of reading 943-17, it appears that the subject was suffering from simple plaque psoriasis; almost certainly not from Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis, as he makes no mention of anyhting that could be interpreted as indicating one or more of the quoted symptoms. Even if he were, though, Cayce's recommendations to the subject would do nothing to help, and would likely be counterproductive.
In your opinion, which has no basis in any evidence. And while you are entitled to your opinion, until yesterday you didn't think any form of psoriasis affected the kidneys.

Originally Posted by Rodney: "What proof do you have that these statements are incorrect?" Simply that Cayce made numerous statements, all of which contradicted other statements he made. So even if (and that's a very big "if") he was right some of the time, he must, logically, have been wrong the rest of the time. As it happens, the statement from reading 943-17 you have chosen to defend is the one of the few times Cayce claims that psoriasis is the cause, rather than the effect of the underlying disorder ("psoriasis is - itself - an infectious condition that affects the emunctory and lymph circulation, and causes an improper coordination of the eliminating forces of the system"), you've in effect conceded that Cayce was, at best, wrong way more often than he was right.
The cause of psoriasis is unknown to modern medicine. The relationship between psoriasis and the underlying condition is undoubtedly complex, and may involve a vicious cycle of cause and effect.

Originally Posted by Rodney: "And what was the source for Cayce's medical knowledge?"
You mean the lack thereof. Who knows? Given how spectacularly wrong he was, even by the standards of the time, we can safely eliminate even contemporary medical science, and certainly any psychic ability. Other than that, we can only speculate; old wives' tales, perhaps, or a cursory reading of medical texts predating the germ theory of disease, stuff he pulled out of his arse, or a combination of the aforegoing. The only thing we can be certain of is that he had no actual understanding of what he was on about.
Except that a number of medical doctors disagree with you completely.
 
Look Rodney. After 2+ threads and weeks of posting you know full well what needs to be provided in these forums to qualify as evidence, proof, etc. Are you going to put forth such information, or are we going to just keep dancing around semantic arguments and bickering over interpretations of a guy that's been dead for decades (no, not Nostrodamus)? Because, frankly, it's getting boring.
 
I'll give Cayce a demerit for using the word infectious, but you can't get around the fact that in context he clearly was not saying it was contagious. That would have been a serious error, but he never said that in any reading.
I haven't used the word "contagious" in this thread; that was you. So you concede Cayce was wrong to use the word "infectious." That's the first halfway honest thing you've said in this thread so far.
You're totally off-base here. While Cayce may have given as many as many as 30,000 readings, only 14,306 are available --both at ARE Headquarters and on-line. The idea that the ARE has stashed away about 16,000 readings is a fantasy supported by zero evidence.
As I said, if words don't mean the same in Cayce-speak as they do in English, who can tell what anything means?
In your opinion, which has no basis in any evidence.
Go to hell. Show me why there's any basis to believe that subject 943 specifically had Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis. Explain also how the "treatment" recommended by Cayce in reading 943-17 is supposed to help in the event of Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis.
And while you are entitled to your opinion, until yesterday you didn't think any form of psoriasis affected the kidneys.
Once again, you have to misrepresent what I say in an effort to score a point. I did not use the phrase "any form of psoriasis"; like Cayce, I was speaking of psoriasis in general. I concede I hadn't heard of Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis, but that may have something to with the fact that it's a rare form. And even then, you have stretch the meaning of the word "affect," since VZpp doesn't affect the kidneys directly, but causes effects which in turn place a strain on the heart and kidneys. It's rather like saying a common cold affects your hands because you have to use them to blow your nose.
The cause of psoriasis is unknown to modern medicine. The relationship between psoriasis and the underlying condition is undoubtedly complex, and may involve a vicious cycle of cause and effect.
"May." You don't know. All that quoting out of context, twisting words, misrepresenting others' statements, and the best you can come up with is that one thing Cayce said might be correct, in an extremely vague sort of way, conveniently disregarding the many other things he said which were plainly wrong. You really are pathetic.
Except that a number of medical doctors disagree with you completely.
By "a number," you mean "one," namely Mein. And he isn't a dermatologist, won't conduct a proper clinical trial to back up his claims, and can't get his lousy article published in a professional journal.
That hardly even qualifies as an appeal to authority; it's a crappy excuse for one, at best.

I think I'm done with this thread, frankly.
 
As I said, if words don't mean the same in Cayce-speak as they do in English, who can tell what anything means?
Well, it'll certainly make it a lot easier for Rodney to retrofit Cayce's ideas to current knowledge:
Almonds prevent cancer? No, what Cayce actually meant by "almonds" was "radiotherapy", and what he meant by "prevent" was "treat".
 
As Euromutt pointed out, the best you can do is create room for the possibility that Cacey was right.

I'll let somebody smarter than me explain why that doesn't help:

Abraham Lincoln said:
"I believe it is an established maxim in morals that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false, is guilty of falsehood; and the accidental truth of the assertion, does not justify or excuse him."
 
I haven't used the word "contagious" in this thread; that was you. So you concede Cayce was wrong to use the word "infectious." That's the first halfway honest thing you've said in this thread so far.
As I said, if words don't mean the same in Cayce-speak as they do in English, who can tell what anything means?
First, since Cayce used the word "infectious" in 1932, it's possible he was using it in a sense that it is not used in today. Second, if he did use that word incorrectly, it may have simply been a slip of the tongue because I have checked on-line every other Cayce reading and he never said anything similar to that.

Go to hell. Show me why there's any basis to believe that subject 943 specifically had Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis. Explain also how the "treatment" recommended by Cayce in reading 943-17 is supposed to help in the event of Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis.
Once again, you have to misrepresent what I say in an effort to score a point. I did not use the phrase "any form of psoriasis"; like Cayce, I was speaking of psoriasis in general. I concede I hadn't heard of Von Zumbusch pustular psoriasis, but that may have something to with the fact that it's a rare form. And even then, you have stretch the meaning of the word "affect," since VZpp doesn't affect the kidneys directly, but causes effects which in turn place a strain on the heart and kidneys. It's rather like saying a common cold affects your hands because you have to use them to blow your nose.
Your statement was: "If psoriasis affects the kidneys, it's the first I've heard of it." I then quoted a reputable source that stated: "Generalized pustular psoriasis can make life-threatening demands on the heart and kidneys." Maybe you can show the exchange to someone outside this forum and obtain their opinion as to whether I misrepresented what you said.

May." You don't know. All that quoting out of context, twisting words, misrepresenting others' statements, and the best you can come up with is that one thing Cayce said might be correct, in an extremely vague sort of way, conveniently disregarding the many other things he said which were plainly wrong. You really are pathetic.
Thank you for the compliment, ;) but you still haven't shown that Cayce's psoriasis treatment doesn't work. No, that doesn't mean it does work, but that's completely different than it having been debunked. I would also note the following quote from noted psoriasis researcher Alice Gottlieb: "Ten years ago, research on the pathogenesis of psoriasis focused primarily on affected skin cells. Today, its primary focus is the immune system." See -- http://www.umdnj.edu/umcweb/marketi...cations/umdnj_magazine/hstate/win99/psor2.htm -- If you consider Cayce's approach a little more objectively, you will see that is what he was essentially saying. His focus was never on affected skin cells, but on the body's circulatory system.

By "a number," you mean "one," namely Mein. And he isn't a dermatologist, won't conduct a proper clinical trial to back up his claims, and can't get his lousy article published in a professional journal.
That hardly even qualifies as an appeal to authority; it's a crappy excuse for one, at best.
You're wrong if you think that Mein is the only medical doctor who believes generally in the efficacy of Cayce's psoriasis treatments or overall approach to medicine. Cayce is known as the "Father of Holistic Medicine" and there is an American Holistic Medical Association that generally subscribes to his views. If you check out -- http://www.holisticmedicine.org/ahma/public?action=findDoctors -- and search on some large states, such as California, you will find many holistic doctors. To be sure, still a distinct minority, but hardly just one doctor who believes in Cayce's psoriasis treatments or general approach to medicine.

I think I'm done with this thread, frankly.
See you down the road.
 
Edgar made amazing psychic predictions, no less than 14000,and about 90% were accurate.
How do you think he did it?
 
He didn't...

Sorry - don't know who you are talking about until we have scientific evidence.

Scottch
 
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Sorry - I still don't see your evidence. Can you give me a reference/body of work/possible people that I could contact and look at the evidence?

"Why People Believe Weird Things" is a great resource by Michael Shermer. Within the book, Shermer elaborated on many of the fantasy-prone and non-specific ideas that Edgar Cayce had professed.

Beyond their rebuttals - do you have anything else to offer?

Scottch
 
Sorry - I still don't see your evidence. Can you give me a reference/body of work/possible people that I could contact and look at the evidence?

"Why People Believe Weird Things" is a great resource by Michael Shermer. Within the book, Shermer elaborated on many of the fantasy-prone and non-specific ideas that Edgar Cayce had professed.

Beyond their rebuttals - do you have anything else to offer?

Scottch

what he and others did was to brag about the few wrong predictions.
as i said they were very few
 

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