Split Thread The Towers should not hve collapsed (split from Gravysites)

He says as much in his signature...

You can tell by the way he's phrasing everything, he's trying to be as arrogant, condescending and snide as possible to trigger reactions. He doesn't believe a word of what he's saying, he's just copying and pasting old bits from conspiracy sites that haven't been updated since 2006.

Nothing to see here. Just a little kid bored on Sunday night.
 
You can tell by the way he's phrasing everything, he's trying to be as arrogant, condescending and snide as possible to trigger reactions. He doesn't believe a word of what he's saying, he's just copying and pasting old bits from conspiracy sites that haven't been updated since 2006.

Nothing to see here. Just a little kid bored on Sunday night.

What would I do w/out patience? :D
 
What impresses me there is not so much that you get every single item wrong, but the sheer exhaustiveness of your list. Which indicates that you are not uninformed at all, but deliberately spreading misinformation. But that's just my impression.



It is breathtaking that a know-nothing can attempt to turn the facts inside-out. 1337m4n got everything right. You can't disprove a single item on his list and you dare to complain about misinformation. You conspiracy liars may be ignorant, but you sure have chutzpah.
 
It is breathtaking that a know-nothing can attempt to turn the facts inside-out. 1337m4n got everything right. You can't disprove a single item on his list and you dare to complain about misinformation. You conspiracy liars may be ignorant, but you sure have chutzpah.

He's another case of condemnant quod non intelligunt [or worse].... 'nuff said
 
Why should I? Every single point he's raised is already sufficiently debunked by truther videos circulating the net interviewing eyewitnesses, investigating photographic and audio material etc.

Every single point. Which means he compiled this list as a result of watching not just one, but a series of those videos. And then comes here and claims all of these pieces of evidence were missing. He hasn't even brought up a single point that the truther videos didn't deal with. For example: "Wouldn't they have blown up the building the very instant the plane hit it to make it look more inconspicuous?" (Maybe that point has been brought up, I don't claim to know all truther vids)

That would be a point worth debating about at some other time. But certainly not the simple denial of eyewitnesses' accounts and other stuff that is easily accessible to anyone who has the time to sit through the 2h truther video that I posted. I believe the only thing that this one doesn't deal with in detail is the seismic events. I don't remember what truther vid paid closer attention to the seismic data.


Twoofer videos are created by angry adolescents, i.e., ignorant, ineducable morons. In order to debunk something, you have to know something.
 
Alright, looking at the articles regarding this Kader factory, it's really a bad comparison to the WTC. The WTC was earthquake-proof and hurricane proof. The Kader Factory was essentially just the cheapest way to create factory space held together by scraps and ducttape. Any earthquake or typhoon would have done the same thing to the building, because there was no amount of redundancy to take care of peak loads like they occur in earthquakes, hurricanes, or fire...

I stand corrected with my in retrospect of course idiotic statement that steel buildings couldn't collapse without explosives. Lets formulate it a different way: No earthquake- and hurricane proof steel frame highrise building can be destroyed due to a fire, because the redundancy and thermal conductivity of their central structures far exceed the capabilities of simple fire to weaken the central structure.

Heh, no. The WTC would not have stood up to even a moderate sized earthquake. The splices in the moment frames are of less strength than the individual elements. For the uneducated, this means that the lateral system will fail before it dissipates much energy.

And your thermal conductivity statement is hilarious. Why don't you test it out by putting a long piece of angle iron in a fire and see how long it takes for the other end to heat up.
 
When was I debunked? Oh right, I wasn't, not in the slightest. There were some arguments regarding the behaviour of the MSM (which by then could already have been answered by looking at my sig) and many, many blatant lies. The only real argument was that controlled demolition were really hard to pull off - Which is by itself true. But unlike a fire-related collapse, not entirely impossible. The latter being my central point. Maybe it wasn't CD, maybe it was alien heat rays. Is that more probable? Every hypothesis is relatively improbable, be it 'fire', be it 'cd' and be it 'alien heat rays' - But they're not all equally improbable. You're meant to find the most rational explanation.

Lets just pretend I was debunked for now, what does that change? You don't have to pay attention to me either way. Go away if you don't like it. It's not like you are paid to read and write my obviously inane stuff now are you?

Now, back to reality. I wasn't debunked. Since my central argument is the debunking of the officious theories ("Fire") that means you can no longer, by rational standards, support the fire theory, doesn't it? Oh no. You're a conspiracy kook now. Are you gonna blame the jews? I think the jews have it bad enough without your antisemitic drivel, thank you very much.


I think most of us missed the part where you debunked the engineers, physicists, fire safety experts, and metallurgists who produced the NIST Report. Although it is highly impressive that you managed this feat without being able to read the report, perhaps you could detail the specific errors committed by the real researchers?
 
I stand corrected with my in retrospect of course idiotic statement that steel buildings couldn't collapse without explosives. Lets formulate it a different way: No earthquake- and hurricane proof steel frame highrise building can be destroyed due to a fire, because the redundancy and thermal conductivity of their central structures far exceed the capabilities of simple fire to weaken the central structure.


What makes you think that one thing has anything at all to do with the other? Wind and Earthquake design loads are typically considered to be lateral forces on the building and those might overlap somewhat, but I can't see how you're connecting that with the thermal protection placed on the steel structure - in fact they're completely separate and largely unrelated fields.

Speaking of thermal protection, why do you think we as an industry have bothered, for the last several decades, to specifically protect the steel components of a building's structure with batting, safing, sprinklers, and the like, if it's so very impervious to heat? I believe the IBC 2006 requires 3-hour ratings for structural steel on most buildings over 75 feet in height (from the top floor to the level of egress). It also requires either 2 or 3 hour ratings (I'd have to look it up) on most exit corridors and stairs and limits the total distances an occupant would have to travel to reach one of those safe passages. (Among a great many other things.)

Don't you think our clients, the owners of these buildings, should be filing lawsuits against large segments of the construction industry for wasting all of the billable time to design these things, not to mention the cost of the materials and labor to install them, if they're unnecessary? I mean we hire separate consultants to design and contractors to install these items - what a waste!


Then again, here's an interesting quote from Les Robertson which I hope will impart a little bit more insight into how building designers actually do consider cost versus redundancy:

Les Robertson said:
Yes, no doubt I could have made the towers braver, more stalwart. Indeed, the power to do so rested almost solely with me. The fine line between needless conservatism and appropriate increases in structural integrity can only be defined after careful thought and consideration of all of the alternatives.
 
What impresses me there is not so much that you get every single item wrong, but the sheer exhaustiveness of your list. Which indicates that you are not uninformed at all, but deliberately spreading misinformation. But that's just my impression.


The only problem with your argument there is that every single item in that list is completely true and correct. The problem for you is that you are using conspiracy vidos made by 14 year old kids who don't know the first thing that they are talking about and are completely misinformed. But that works in your favor because you aren't interesting in real information, but rather information that tells you what you want to hear.

And not a single person on your little twoofer movement has yet to be able to publish a paper proving the towers were brought down by explosives. Not a single person has been able to get a single court case without being dismissed with prejudice.

Oh but the majority of the world is full of misinformation and the media is controlled because a small little group of uneducated people must be correct despite not being able to prove so.
 
...
The clouds at the WTC were HOT according to eyewitnesses.
...
The 'fire' theory cannot explain any of this
...

Dabljuh, I find your theories compelling. I would be particularly interested in a summary of your discussions with structural engineers that led you to your position.
 
No arguments since my last post except laughable claims (Kader factory would have survived typhoons) lies (no researcher...) and lots and lots of name calling.

Well maybe except this: ElMondoHummus

1. Dislodged fireproofing from structural supports in the impact zone, and
2. Severed a portion of the supporting columns.
This is actually an argument that explains how the fire *could* have destroyed the many times redundant structure. There are very few of these in this thread, so you other trolls take notice and learn. The problem with this theory is first of all its excessive improbability.

Of course this is now also part of more recent officious theories. I could also argue that genetically engineered steel eating super-termites were aboard the planes that quickly began to eat away the steel construction and thus caused the collapse. There's no evidence for or against either hypothesis - remember that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The reason for this part of the officious hypothesis is not evidence or fact, but this:

*IF* we allow no alternative theories, then the destruction of central columns and the removal of significant amounts of fireproofing, however improbable that scenario may be, becomes necessary to explain the further progression of the buildings to collapse. However then we still end up with the impossibility of WTC7's collapse.

The super-termites simply seem even more implausible than mechanical removal of fireproofing by the plane, even though both options have no evidence either way. Which is why most people would support the mechanical removal theory over 'super-termites'.

*If* we allow alternative theories, and realize the actual collapse observation of all three buildings matches a CD signature far better than anything else including alien heat rays, then the rigging of the building weeks or months in advance to 9/11, no matter how implausible, becomes necessary to explain the collapse, even in the absence of any evidence whatsoever.

But no matter the improbability of any of these hypotheses, after molten iron and steel-eating thermates were found at the site, all those improbabilities vanish and leave only a small subset of options that actually can explain these phenomena - All of which involve rigging of the buildings weeks and months in advance.
 
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No arguments since my last post except laughable claims (Kader factory would have survived typhoons) lies (no researcher...) and lots and lots of name calling.
Or rather blatant denial of structural engineering...
Since your argument is so compelling be sure to speak with a few professional engineers about your claims and be sure to come back to us with the results. I'm sure with your thunderous brilliance you could sway a few structural engineers to your 'hypothesis'



so you other trolls take notice and learn.
I'm afraid you've demonstrated already your inability and lack of education in structural engineering. I'm not sure what your standard of 'learning' is, but it clearly has nothing to do with engineering or architecture, or for the matter common sense.

In any event, your flame bait failed to meet quality standards...


The problem with this theory is first of all its excessive improbability.
You're still making the argument that steel cannot lose nearly enough integrity in fire. Steel's loss of integrity is measured by percentage, 50% at 1100 oF, 90% by 1800 oF. The redundancy becomes meaningless when the steel has lost its elastic properties.


There's no evidence for or against either hypothesis - remember that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The reason for this part of the officious hypothesis is not evidence or fact, but this:

<snip>

But no matter the improbability of any of these hypotheses, after molten iron and steel-eating thermates were found at the site, all those improbabilities vanish and leave only a small subset of options that actually can explain these phenomena - All of which involve rigging of the buildings weeks and months in advance.

If we're talking about super-man or santa clause, you might have something.

Molten 'Iron': This claim would have some merit if truthers didn't have a tendency to photshop images of rescue operation to deceive people:

Here is the original picture of one of the truth movement's so-called examples of molten steel:
ligtscj8.jpg


Steel-eating thermates: When we've debunked traditional thermite the TM has invented 'super thermite'. Advertised as not even needing a fuse. Apparently it works like magic, I see the TM has taken a liking to magicians.

All of which involve rigging of the buildings weeks and months in advance.: When you can define this past the point of speculation we'll be getting somewhere. I've been waiting 7 years now for this to happen, but 'mysteriously' it has not.... I wonder why?
 
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I suppose then you are accusing the vast majority of scientists and engineers of being "paid off". How do you pay off that many people? Let's hear it.

What about the Protec demolitions company? Are they paid off? What about NIST? Are they paid off? What about Bazant and Zhou? Are they paid off?
It also shows a low opinion of human beings to assume that every person can simply be paid off. For many people (including me), no amount of money would make them cover up the murder of 1 person, let alone 3000 people.
 
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(Much snipped for brevity)

I think you need to study the Kader toy factory and the Windsor tower collapse a bit more closely. Those events buttress the point that steel is exceptionally vulnerable to fire. You should not dismiss them so readily.

Also, I think you need to take care about tossing around the "many times redundant" claim. That may be true for lateral loads, but too many times, it's cited to support the claim that the TWin Towers were exceptionally robust, and that's not been demonstrated to be the truth. I think Dr. Astaneh-Asl specifically speaks to claims about the WTC's level of robustness; assuming I'm remembering correctly, I'll try to locate that at some point, but he seemed to dismiss the notion that the towers were truly that strong (again, assuming I remember correctly). In the meanwhile, I suggest you read a few of the threads where Newtons Bit, Architect, and R. Mackey have been involved in speaking about the energetics of the towers collapse. Here's one such thread:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101791&page=6

I'd as well take care in suggesting that WTC7 would have been rigged for explosives demolition. Admitting its implausibility doesn't help the argument any; the notion has been outright falsified. For example, NDBoston is a poster here who actually worked in the building, and has flatly stated that he's never seen any sort of project that can remotely be tied into such explosives installation. On top of that, multiple people, including him, have stated that many floors were trafficed 24x7:

I actually worked at WTC7 and was there on 9-11. From the minute the first plane hit the towers, WTC7 was getting hit with debris.

In fact, when I finally got down to the lobby 45 minutes later, we were all forced to leave through the back since so much debris had hit the building and blocked the entrance.

I also would love to have someone tell me how the 28-44th floors were wired for demolition, when we packed like sardines after the merger with Smith Barney and most floors had people on them 7 days a week. ( A few floors were trading floors so it was 24x7 and many worked 6-7 days a week), and I never saw one construction crew in my time there doing anything significant.

Why won't CT's talk to people who worked at WTC7? My friends and I who worked with at Salomon are eager to talk but I'm guessing you won't like the answers.

Furthermore, the characteristics of explosives demolitions are missing from 7 World Trade's collapse. Which leads into my next point: If you want to argue the possibilty of CD, you'd also have to account for the lack of signature characteristics of such. For example, the seismographic evidence argues against this. So does the state of the steel; no components investigated show any fragmentation consistent with explosives use. On top of that, comparison with the sounds of known explosives demolitions do not match; any reports from witnesses of supposed "bombs" going off have universally been shown to not coincide with the collapses themselves, and in some cases, not coinciding on the order of hours, not mere minutes or seconds.

Saying that any of the buildings' collapses "matches a CD signature far better than anything else" is erroneous. It in fact is a claim that even many CD advocates, like Jim Hoffman, have discarded a long time ago. Explosives demolitions do not explain the bowing of columns, nor the tilt of the upper section as well as the initiation of the collapse at those upper sections of the main towers. Nor can it explain the progression of collapse in WTC 7 starting at one side, progressing up to the Penthouse, then progressing to the rest of the structure. The collapses simply do not look like explosives demolitions. But they do fit failure modes put forth by NIST; NIST constructed those models from actual observations, after all.

And further on top of all of that, the matter of opportunity is still unaddressed. Zero people have noted any sort of construction that could account for this; the "power down" myth doesn't cut it, because it only applied to a subset of floors in only one of the towers. Anyway, NDBoston is only one example of people who've come forth and said "how'd they rig these places without us seeing it?" Explosives demolition of the towers is more than just "implausible", it's outright falsified through a variety of converging pieces of evidence.

At any rate, I think you should go back and look up some of the threads where topics like this were already discussed. Much of this stuff has been covered many times before.
 
Yeah because it's completely absurd to think that a large commercial jet full of fuel traveling at 500mph could possibly dislodge fireproofing. It can rip steel apart yes, but to dislodge fireproofing foam? Absurd. It's completely irresponsible of NIST to make this conclusion as opposed to the other ones which have been ruled out for other impossibilities.

M God, it's full of stupid.
 
Just a quibble. Please stop referring to the spray-applied fire resistive material as "foam."

It was not a foam.
 
Also, I think you need to take care about tossing around the "many times redundant" claim. That may be true for lateral loads, but too many times, it's cited to support the claim that the TWin Towers were exceptionally robust, and that's not been demonstrated to be the truth.
Not demonstrated to be the truth... by the collapse, right?

For example, NDBoston is a poster here who actually worked in the building, and has flatly stated that he's never seen any sort of project that can remotely be tied into such explosives installation.

Right. Next thing you know is you'll have a different witness reporting suspicious activity and explosions here with the same sort of credibility.


Furthermore, the characteristics of explosives demolitions are missing from 7 World Trade's collapse.
lol wut

Which leads into my next point: If you want to argue the possibilty of CD, you'd also have to account for the lack of signature characteristics of such.
What? Massive dust clouds, macroscopic debris scattered all over the place, reported explosions, spontaneous vertical implosion at nearly free fall speed.

For example, the seismographic evidence argues against this.
Right, but the massive dust clouds, macroscopic debris scattered all over the place, reported explosions, the spontaneous vertical implosion at nearly free fall speed speak for it. The lack of seismographic evidence may speak against CD, but then again the fact that the windows were blown in in many buildings around the WTC speaks against the absence of CD.

So does the state of the steel; no components investigated show any fragmentation consistent with explosives use.
Steel does not fragment unless the explosion applies enough force to overcome the steel's tension. Which is why fragmentation grenades, bombs and shells usually contain a prefragmented casing and often shot too. Since it requires the explosion to overcome the tension of the steel to actually rupture it, demolition teams do not usually destroy with high explosives (to which steel is very resilient to) but instead using cutter charges, for example thermite to pre-fragment the steel, and then simply blow it away with a small charge not capable of overcoming the steel's tension.

How do I know this? Because I'm a demolitions guy in the army, and I've worked with C1, TNT and blasting cord. I wouldn't call me an expert as the army training is more pragmatic than theoretical in nature, but I'm trained to know how to bring things down - be it buildings, bridges, steel, concrete or wood structures.

On top of that, comparison with the sounds of known explosives demolitions do not match; any reports from witnesses of supposed "bombs" going off have universally been shown to not coincide with the collapses themselves, and in some cases, not coinciding on the order of hours, not mere minutes or seconds.
Proving what?

Saying that any of the buildings' collapses "matches a CD signature far better than anything else" is erroneous. It in fact is a claim that even many CD advocates, like Jim Hoffman, have discarded a long time ago. Explosives demolitions do not explain the bowing of columns, nor the tilt of the upper section as well as the initiation of the collapse at those upper sections of the main towers.
It is trivial to start the collapse at the upper section of the tower. The way you bring a tall building down is that you weaken its structure in the entire lenght. If you just blow up the basement alone with sufficient force, the building may topple over, or remain standing after falling a floor or two. That's why you need to bring down the entire length of the building's structure. Also, in CD, you do not normally fire all charges at once, nor do you apply the "more is better" philosophy of the army when it comes to the amount of explosives, the simple reason being that you only want to destroy the building, and not everything next to it too. For that reason too, you avoid blowing all explosive charges at once. Professional CD works are timed shortly after each other, avoiding the creation of an explosive shockwave that would damage nearby buildings or scatter debris all over the place.

However, that all being said, it's trivial to start the explosion at the top. The reason why you normally don't is because it takes more explosives (where with a bottom-up CD you let gravity do most of the work) and is more prone to scattering debris all over the place.

While the WTC was professional work, the twin tower's collapses both also show signatures of being a military rather than a civilian demolition team. But there should not be too much interpreted into that statement, I'm sure the reason for the top-down nature of the CD was rather to make the collapse seem more natural to the untrained eye, instead of being solely caused by pragmatically trained military agents. The enormeous dust cloud and the large area of scatter however suggests that a rather large amount of explosives was used, which suggests that there was some hurry when they were applied.

Rule of thumb for explosives: If you're in a hurry, you use more explosives to make up for the fact that you don't have the time to properly install the charges. You can get by with very small amounts of explosives if you apply them well, compared to just randomly duct taping (No, I'm not kidding) a large pile of plastic to whatever it is you want to destroy.

The collapses simply do not look like explosives demolitions.
I disagree. It looks 100% like a regular controlled demolition to me. Wait, what you say? I'm an expert and thus your own opinion is rendered obsolete? Neato!

But they do fit failure modes put forth by NIST; NIST constructed those models from actual observations, after all.
"It collapsed, so lets just modify the computer simulation until our model collapses too" and then they end up with a virtual simulation of a hollow tube made from paper machee.

And further on top of all of that, the matter of opportunity is still unaddressed.
Indeed, that is the biggest mystery. Who did it. What's clear however is that there have been months of preparations gone into this.
 
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Thank you for the schmorus borg or conspiracy fallacies there Dab. They were interesting claims in 2005, but since that year when they were all proven incorrect, it's gotten quite boring for the rest of us. You can throw out all the conspiracy cliche claims and misinformation you want, but don't expect anyone to be impressed. Feel free to look at the manny threads where all the little claims you make are shown to be completely wrong.
 
D said:
How do I know this? Because I'm a demolitions guy in the army, and I've worked with C1, TNT and blasting cord. I wouldn't call me an expert as the army training is more pragmatic than theoretical in nature, but I'm trained to know how to bring things down - be it buildings, bridges, steel, concrete or wood structures.

I do not believe you.

Show us where a military team has demolished anything close to a 110 storey building using thermite and explosives.

The truther mantra is, if it has nor happened previously it cannot happen.

You are trolling
 
Anybody who says that the Twins collapse looked "100% like a CD" doesn't know jack about CDs.

The collapse of each tower began when each building failed at the exact point where they'd been hit by the planes and several exterior and core columns were completely severed by them. For a while, the surrounding columns and girders were able to redistribute the loads that the severed columns couldn't handle via the hat truss and other load distributors but with fireproofing almost certainly dislodged at several key points, the steel in the unsevered surrounding columns began to lose their strength. The amount of weight they could support fell, just as more and more weight was being transferred to them because other columns were weakening too and trying to transfer their loads elsewhere at the same time. Eventually both towers reached a point when the unsevered columns no longer had enough strength to hold up the weight above them, the impact zones collapsed in on themselves and the rest of the buildings followed straight down because gravity works that way.

If a CD was set up in such a hurry that the phantom military demolitioneers had to plant tons of explosives to make sure they had enough, how did they get the charges in the exact places the planes would fly into? Or how did the pilots on the plane hit the exact spots where the charges were, especially considering that Flight 175 had turn hard in order to not miss the building entirely and ended up clipping the corner?
 

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