Are Truthers' accusations against Silverstein based on latent anti-Semitism?

The above, followed by
is just precious!. All you left out is "and btw, my dog is bigger than yours! Nya, nya, nya."

I'm not the one running away from a simple question.

MM said:
I wonder, though, if you're missing the point, entirely?

I can see the point of you rrunning away from the question.

If you give me an answer to the quite simple and basic question I would answer any of your questions. Even the goalpost shifting wife beater ones.


Are you up to it?
 
Back in the "old days", before people knew about WTC7 and "pull it", many still knew about WTC1 and WTC2, whose leaseholder was the same Silverstein that we are talking about.

Back in those old days, were 911 Truthers who believed that the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2 was CD, and that Silverstein was the leaseholder, also due (at least partly) to anti-Semitism?

Missing the point there as usual. The accusations against Silverstein are that he personally was involved in the planning and execution of a CD of WTC7. Anybody who believed that the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2 was carried out at Silverstein's orders, without even the flimsy and inadequate evidence of the "pull it" quote, would have even less grounds for their suspicion, and hence the likelihood of anti-Semitism as a motivation seems to me even greater.

To recap: It's not about CD, it's about whether Silverstein ordered it personally.

Dave
 
Incorrect. In fact, you're helping me prove my point since, as I predicted, you would not state a percentage. (And if you had, you would not produce any evidence for your claim.) You babble about a "high" percentage, but can't tell us how high that is.

BTW, since "more or less than half of you liars are Jew-haters" is identically the set of {any percentage such that "you liars are Jew-haters"} - { exactly 50% such that "you liars are Jew-haters"}, that means that you have no idea how many "liars" are "Jew-haters", except that it's not exactly 50%. (And, of course, you really don't know whether or not it's exactly 50%, either.)

Which is my point. Your 'arguments' below


taken literally, proves nothing to me about the 911 Truth movement, as a whole. We've all gotten emails from some dudes claiming that they have a can't lose business proposition in Nigeria, but only require X dollars to realize their riches. Just what are we supposed to conclude from such emails - that all Nigerians are charlatans? That a "high percentage" of Nigerians are charlatans? Or that any percentage ( except possibly 50% :) ) could be charlatans?

Tell me, has it ever occurred to you that the person sending such an email might not be a native of Nigeria, at all? This would be analogous to emails being sent by a shill, deliberately smearing Jews, for purposes of disinformation. The ultimate purpose being to allow people like yourself to turn around and smear the 911 Truth Movement.


No, actually, it'd be very difficult to demonstrate. In fact, since the same sort of real research that could show, quantitatively, that anti-Semitism is rife in the 911 Truth Movement could also show that it is not, asserting this with real confidence is just as hard as asserting it's opposite. Your standards of proof, though, are so flimsy, that if I was willing to similarly adopt some cheesy criteria, it should be relatively easy to determine this.

E.g., I could request that the next newsletter to the membership of the Scholars for 911 Truth and Justice include a questionairre, asking
1) "Are you anti-Semitic?"

and, borrowing from your ludicrous statement earlier

2) "If you believe that the collapse of WTC 7 was via CD, and if you were then informed that Silverstein was not Jewish, would you then reverse your opinion and believe that the WTC 7 collapse was not via CD?"

The results of such a survey* are easy to predict, since even if there was anti-Semitism above 'normal', most people would not want to admit to it.

However, for the shallow of mind, that might find great significance regarding the character of the Nigerian people based upon the crap in their email box, such considerations are besides the point. The bonanza-in-Nigeria emails keep on a-comin', and what further proof could a "rationalist", indeed, a "triumphant rationalist", require? Apparently, for some "triumphant rationalists", no further proof at all.

I have a much better suggestion. Since you must be getting tired bashing all of us "loons" all the time, why don't you write to the Anti-Defamation League, and ask them to sponsor some real research into the CT community, to see if there is some statistically improbable spike in anti-Semitism? Since somebody taking ADL money would probably be prejudiced to deliver what they thought the ADL wanted, extra care would have to be taken to find honest and reputable researchers.

Of course, since science depends upon independent verification, most scientists would chose to wait as the 911 Truther/Anti-Semitism body of research began to accumulate, until a picture might emerge that one could confidently point to and say "the 911 Truth Community is X% more likely to be anti-Semitic than non-Truthers".

If X > 0, that should make you happy, though if X is also less than 5, say, your joy would be greatly diminished.

Although I'm sure that a "triumphant rationalist" like yourself can't imagine this, if the 911 Truth Community was less likely to be anti-Semitic than non-Truthers, you may have to find yourself another hobby.


Funny, but I don't feel embarrassed, at all. How about you?


* Of course, such a survey lacks a control group. Finding a control group for 2) is probably difficult, but finding a control group for 1) should be relatively easy. I don't think most of the population knows about the collapse of WTC 7.

When you find yourself arguing about how many NAZIs you have in your group. YOU LOSE.
 
I'm sorry that I've been busy lately, and have been unable to explore the forum as much as usual.

In answer to the title: In many cases anti-Semitism may be the case, but IMO it is not the majority (at least not consciously). I think the attention generated by the "pull it" line has been the major factor in Silverstein becoming a target for the rants of "twoofers," rather than his family background. However, his Jewish heritage has probably attracted anti-semites to the "Twoof" movement.
 
As a response to some of metamars' comments, above, I would say this. If the Salomon Bros Bldg (now more frequently referred to as WTC7) had been owned by, say, Donald Trump, who is also an actual NYC real estate mogul, but who is not Jewish, I believe that there would have been very little discussion about the collapse of the building. Just like there is very little about any of the other buildings outside of the two towers themselves.

The fact that the man was named Silverstein, a surname which practically cries out, "yoo hoo, Jew!", drew the sharks, and sadder to say, a wading bird as well. Red I. isn't magz, or atrain, or one of those types, but clearly there is something there.

Also the "dentures" quote from him is mystifying. Does Silverstein wear dentures? If so, what relevance does it have to anything? Is there a vast dental conspiracy out there? (I have a friend, a dentist, who went into dental forensics because of 9/11. He spent his nights and weekends for some time after the event working on the identification of remains. For what it's worth, he denies there is a conspiracy.)
 
As a response to some of metamars' comments, above, I would say this. If the Salomon Bros Bldg (now more frequently referred to as WTC7) had been owned by, say, Donald Trump, who is also an actual NYC real estate mogul, but who is not Jewish, I believe that there would have been very little discussion about the collapse of the building. Just like there is very little about any of the other buildings outside of the two towers themselves.

The fact that the man was named Silverstein, a surname which practically cries out, "yoo hoo, Jew!", drew the sharks, and sadder to say, a wading bird as well. Red I. isn't magz, or atrain, or one of those types, but clearly there is something there.

Also the "dentures" quote from him is mystifying. Does Silverstein wear dentures? If so, what relevance does it have to anything? Is there a vast dental conspiracy out there? (I have a friend, a dentist, who went into dental forensics because of 9/11. He spent his nights and weekends for some time after the event working on the identification of remains. For what it's worth, he denies there is a conspiracy.)

And yet for all of this from you, Pom, LashL, and the rest who have latched on to this silly line of thinking, not one of you can quote me making an anti-semitic remark.

This is not so much insultng as illogical. As has been pointed out by meta, how do my criticisms of General Myers or Bush or Cheney square with this supposed anti-semitism?

The longer this goes on, the longer you will prove yourself to be disinterested in logic and reasoning and in your desperation, rely on the most petty and baseless attacks. This tactic of attacking me as a supposed anti-semite is the opposite of critical thinking, the opposite of what this forum is supposed to promote. Meshugganah!
 
SDC: I'm not sure that I agree with you, though I'm also not sure that you're wrong.

It seems to me that the wellspring of 911 truth is that the towers' collapse "didn't look right" (admittedly as a manifestation of various deeper psycho-pathologies; hard wired type I error bias, hatred of authority, fear of the uncontrollable, incredulous jingoism and racism - probably more against Arabs than Jews, etc, etc), and as far as I know WTC7 is the only other building that we have collapse footage for.

The fact is, all of their 'hook' talking points - freefall speed, symmetrical collapse - apply equally to WTC7 or the twin towers (which is, admittedly, to say not at all :)). However, critically, WTC7 wasn't hit by a plane, so suspicion glues to it. *

From this perspective, the "pull it" thing is just part of the package, and the heredity of its originator completely incidental for the majority of those spreading the meme. It may well be that it only got inflated to this scale (perhaps even originated) because he is Jewish, but that does not ipso facto make its proponents anti-semitic.

It's exactly the same as the anti-Israel lobby. There are many on the left, like myself, who trenchantly disagree with Israel's foreign policy, and can accept fully that part of the reason that resistance to this holds traction is anti-semitism, while not being themselves anti-semitic.

Although I'm willing to accept that the truth movement - or the anti-Israel movement - themselves (as collective psychologies) are latently anti-semitic, and that many members are full blown Nazis, I just don't think you can impute motives so easily to people who are by nature picking up talking points wherever they appear to advance the cause; it reveals desperation to be noticed, perhaps, but can be rooted in rightism, leftism, anti-Americanism, anti-semitism, anti-capitalism... you name it.

Anyone agree with me here? Am I just talking into the wind? :D

* ETA: As metamars pointed out on page 1, NISTs hesitance on the matter can only help...
 
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Confuseling, I don't have a particular argument with you, we just see things somewhat differently. Part of my general view is that, in Western culture in general (also, probably, in Islamic, but I'm not an informed party), there is always a deep seated tendency to look for the Jew when there are disasters. It has waned since WW2, but it comes from the origins of Western culture -- the rise of Christianity, which was built on a rejection of Judaism, in the late Roman empire. If I recall correctly, Irving Howe (in "World of our Fathers") called it a chronic wound -- sometimes open, sometimes scabbed over. But there, in the culture, acknowledged or not.

Red I. is no magz, for example, that's obvious. It's evident that he (? she? it?) doesn't think of himself (etc) in anti-semitic terms. But I think in The Silverstein Affair he has been caught up in a classic cultural trope. He may even be Jewish; but most modern Western (European and American) Jews are more "western" than specifically Jewish, nowadays.

So much for philosophy. Now, who's for burning down a church? Yeeeeeeeeeehah!
 
Red I. is no magz, for example, that's obvious. It's evident that he (? she? it?) doesn't think of himself (etc) in anti-semitic terms. But I think in The Silverstein Affair he has been caught up in a classic cultural trope. He may even be Jewish; but most modern Western (European and American) Jews are more "western" than specifically Jewish, nowadays.

Let me see if I got this right. Not once did I use any anti semitic remarks when I criticized Silverstein, but somehow I'm secretly anti semitic.

And if by some chance I happen to be Jewish, I'm not really Jewish because Jews aren't as Jewish as they used to be.

And I'm the jew-hater. This is what passes for logic around here?
 
Confuseling, I don't have a particular argument with you, we just see things somewhat differently. Part of my general view is that, in Western culture in general (also, probably, in Islamic, but I'm not an informed party), there is always a deep seated tendency to look for the Jew when there are disasters. It has waned since WW2, but it comes from the origins of Western culture -- the rise of Christianity, which was built on a rejection of Judaism, in the late Roman empire. If I recall correctly, Irving Howe (in "World of our Fathers") called it a chronic wound -- sometimes open, sometimes scabbed over. But there, in the culture, acknowledged or not.

Red I. is no magz, for example, that's obvious. It's evident that he (? she? it?) doesn't think of himself (etc) in anti-semitic terms. But I think in The Silverstein Affair he has been caught up in a classic cultural trope. He may even be Jewish; but most modern Western (European and American) Jews are more "western" than specifically Jewish, nowadays.

So much for philosophy. Now, who's for burning down a church? Yeeeeeeeeeehah!

I'm with you entirely, as per;

...That said, there is clearly a pattern, whereby anybody who seeks a sinister Svengali, a behind the scenes boogeyman, will probably pick a Jew. People in the West are sadly culturally primed for this, and mud sticks to other mud. It's awful, but it's the basic witch-burning group dynamics of human psychology, and I don't think there's lots you can do about it. It's an indelible stain written into the very fabric, perhaps even of hominids, rather than whoever you think of as the narrower 'us'.
...

But I'm just trying to state that you can fall for this trope without being latently anti-semitic. Moved perhaps by cultural forces of latent anti-semitism, but that speaks nothing of your individual psyche.

Let me draw another parallel; this new metrosexuality thing has some of its origin in preened and well-kempt stereotypes of gay men. That does not in any way shape or form mean that if I gel my hair thoroughly and wear a salmon pink t-shirt then I am latently homosexual. Methodological individualism cuts both ways.

ETA: and I'm extreeeemely up for burning some religious meeting places of no denominational specificity :D
 
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I'm with you entirely, as per;



But I'm just trying to state that you can fall for this trope without being latently anti-semitic. Moved perhaps by cultural forces of latent anti-semitism, but that speaks nothing of your individual psyche.

Let me draw another parallel; this new metrosexuality thing has some of its origin in preened and well-kempt stereotypes of gay men. That does not in any way shape or form mean that if I gel my hair thoroughly and wear a salmon pink t-shirt that I am latently homosexual. Methodological individualism cuts both ways.

ETA: and I'm extreeeemely up for burning some religious meeting places of no denominational specificity :D

Pretty much agree. It's not a matter of an individual's anti-semitism as much as it's the general cultural trope; it's the response that is most easily available. We are embedded within our cultures more than we realize. Few of us can see beyond the borders.

As for gel, and pink, all I can say is that this is not my trope nor my Fach or leitmotiv. In fact, I say yuck.
 
As for gel, and pink, all I can say is that this is not my trope nor my Fach or leitmotiv. In fact, I say yuck.

:D I can't argue with that. My hair's about a foot long, so if I were to gel it I think the only way would be up. Also, Fach - good new word, for which I am grateful.

Incidentally, I must also thank metamars for his kind words about my contribution to his sociology thread. I apologise for its slightly tangential nature, and hope perhaps to be able to come back to the original topic when I have more time and maybe more information. I note that you posted the first chapter of the book in question, but alas, an essay is calling, and I'm in the process of moving house.

Still, good debates, and it's this side of things I'm interested in. I'll leave the engineering to the engineers... :)
 
No, what passes for logic is you insisting that Silverstein lied, but not being able to say what he lied about.

Dave

I've articulated endlessly how I think Silverstein was being dishonest in his interview, and not once did I bring up his religious or ethnic background. All of this jew hater talk originates with the so called skeptics, which is often the case around here.

More importantly, I never accused Silverstein of a crime since lying and botching an interview is not a criminal offense. I have been far more scathing in my criticisms of Giuliani, Myers, Bush and Cheney, and oddly, I have not been called anti-Italian, anti-general, anti-frat boy Conneticut blue blood, or anti-cyborg.
 
I've articulated endlessly how I think Silverstein was being dishonest in his interview, and not once did I bring up his religious or ethnic background. All of this jew hater talk originates with the so called skeptics, which is often the case around here.

More importantly, I never accused Silverstein of a crime since lying and botching an interview is not a criminal offense. I have been far more scathing in my criticisms of Giuliani, Myers, Bush and Cheney, and oddly, I have not been called anti-Italian, anti-general, anti-frat boy Conneticut blue blood, or anti-cyborg.
If you aren't anti-semitie, why do you find such a need to defend yourself?
 
Well sometimes you protest to much and that doesn't bode well.

I said before that I don't feel personally insulted, although I expect if someone called you a jew-hater you would want to defend yourself.

Primarily, I find the quick connection of criticizing Silverstein with anti semitism to be illogical and counter to the spirit of this forum.
 
I said before that I don't feel personally insulted, although I expect if someone called you a jew-hater you would want to defend yourself.
Of course I would but then I would drop it.
Primarily, I find the quick connection of criticizing Silverstein with anti semitism to be illogical and counter to the spirit of this forum.
You mean there aren't those in the truth movement that blame Silverstein for the exact same reason those same people claim Mossad was involved (IE Daniel Lewin was aboard flight 11 as an agent of Saryat Maktal although he retired 5 years prior and founded Akami who had offices in Boston and San Fransisco), same people who claim the "dancing" Israelis were Mossad, same people who claim the protocols of the elders of zion are true and accurate, same people who deny the holocaust, same people who claim jews (whom the mask as zionists) are evil? You mean there are none of those? Believe me Red, the connection isn't being bandied about for no reason.
 

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