Andrews Air Force Base on 9/11

[bio]

Clarke doesn't actually provide those times at all. You're giving us dubious inferences as though they were facts.

AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, Richard Clarke, page 3, Quote:

"It was 9:03 a.m., September 11, 2001. As I drove up to the first White House gate Lisa called again: "The other tower was just hit." "Well, now we know who we're dealing with. I want the highest-level person in Washington from each agency on-screen now, especially FAA," the Federal Aviation Administration. As I pulled the car up to the West Wing door, Paul Kurtz, one of the White House counterterrorism team, ran up to me. "We were in the Morning Staff Meeting when we heard. Condi told me to find you fast and broke up the meeting. She's with Cheney."

(...)

page 4, Quote:

"You're going to need some decisions quickly," Rice said off cam- "I'm going to the PEOC to be with the Vice President. Tell us what you need." "What I need is an open line to Cheney and you." I turned to my White House Fellow, Army Major Mike Fenzel. The highly competi-tive process that selected White House fellows had turned out some extraordinary people over the years, such as another army major named Colin Powell. "Mike," I said, "go with Condi to the PEOC and open a secure line to me. I'll relay the decisions we need to you."

(...)

.... Shortly thereafter, Mineta called in from his car and I asked him to come directly to the Situation Room. He had two sons who were pilots for United. He did not know where they were that day. I suggested he join the Vice President."


What proofs do you have, to say "Clarke doesn't actually provide those times at all."?

 

[gumboot]

Can we keep this thread on topic? there's ample threads about the discrepencies in the Mineta, Clarke, and so on, testimonies. This thread is about the FAA and NORAD.

 

[MikeW]

What proofs do you have, to say "Clarke doesn't actually provide those times at all."?

Look at your own quotes. He doesn't say when Cheney left his office. That quote doesn't even say Mineta arrived: to reach a time of 9:15 you must assume the conversation started beforehand, infer that Clarke meant he was recording his arrival, then hope that he arrived within a minute or two of the conversation beginning. You can do that, if you want, but don't then pretend Clarke's definitively said this: he hasn't.

The bigger problem is that you're assuming Clarke's order of events re: Mineta is correct, and there's plenty of evidence to say otherwise. See the links I provided previously, or search the forum for Mineta.

 

[gumboot]

Why did FAA contact military bases by itself?

Well, it's been explained why. Boston ARTCC were the only FAA facility to contact military bases directly - trying to contact Atlantic City first but unaware that Atlantic City no longer had an alert base, before then trying to contact Otis. This was a break with protocol, as was Boston ARTCC's call to NEADS at 0837. And the way Otis and NEADS responded to these calls broke broke protocol as well - the Commanding Officer at Otis ordered the alert pilots to their aircraft immediately, and NEADS ordered Otis to Battle Stations immediately. In fact Otis probably achieved Battle Stations a good 5 or 10 minutes early thanks to those premature calls.

Of course, Boston also followed protocol, but the protocol was too slow. In fact on 9/11 the furthest any of the flights got along the appropriate channels was UA93, which was at the stage of FAA Headquarters deciding if they would request a military escort or not when word arrived that the flight had crashed.

That, of course, is the problem with the existing protocols - they were too slow, and woefully inadequate for what happened on 9/11.

The reason is: The standard procedure failed that day. The scrambling has been coordinated by the NMCC until 9/11. Therefore the FAA headquarter and even FAA flight controllers contacted NEADS and military bases by themselves:

The only direct communication made between the FAA and military on 9/11 was a call from Cape Cod TRACON to Otis ANGB and a call from Boston ARTCC to NEADS. These calls came minutes apart, the calls were acted on (see above) and the calls marginally improved the response time.

The reason scramblings were never coordinated by the NMCC on 9/11 was because the FAA never officially requested a scramble.

The reason Boston ARTCC couldn't contact Atlantic City is because it was no longer an alert site. The 177th Fighter Wing were focused on the air-to-ground role on 9/11, and that's what their fighters were out training for when the attacks happened. Two airborne aircraft returned, and two about to take off were recalled to the flight line where they were switched over to an air-to-air role. Fighters from the 177th Fighter Wing were the first armed non-alert fighters to fly above Washington DC that morning.

 

[funk de fino]

There is absolutely no way someone who claims to have worked fast jet aircraft can be making the claims roundhead is. He has no idea about armed aircraft, scramble orders, on alert status and should know better about aircraft flying with full burners on.

I am ex fast jet technician on Tornado F3 ADV aircraft and used to work frontline and on 10 min alert. I know he is incorrect and making false claims.

If he was ex Tomcat he would not be making these claims. This is repeating of the liar Griffins claims and nothing more.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I have no problem with your fuel usage. The Langley fighters on full burn would have been there in 6-7 minutes, and after finding and dealing with 77, could have easily been on the ground in 10-12 minutes at Andrews. They only needed burners to get there, not once on station, dealing with 77. Seven minutes max on burners.

Pilots do what they are told, and follow orders. Its plenty obvious they werent told to hurry.

You seem to have missed the part of my post about aircraft carrying drop tanks having severely degraded supersonic performance due to drag. Unclassified hard data may not be available, but I've seen estimates that the best F-16-type aircraft can do with tanks is about Mach 1.2. beachnut, R.Mackey, or someone else knowledgeable about aerodynamics can refine this. So actually the aircraft would have had to have flown for about eight minutes at about 800 kts, then dropped their tanks, and continued flying at about Mach 1.8 (even air-to-air missiles create some drag, and max speed figures are for completely clean aircraft). Eight minutes at 800 kts would get them about 120 statute miles; still short of DC, with over half of their fuel used, when they drop their tanks.

The problem with your entire scenario, however, is that you are assuming perfect knowledge of the threat, which simply didn't exist. As has been pointed out, American 77 was "lost" until just a few minutes before it struck the Pentagon; in the circumstances, conserving fuel was the sensible thing for the interceptors to do. How could they possibly have known how long they'd need to remain airborne?

 

[gumboot]

You seem to have missed the part of my post about aircraft carrying drop tanks having severely degraded supersonic performance due to drag. Unclassified hard data may not be available, but I've seen estimates that the best F-16-type aircraft can do with tanks is about Mach 1.2. beachnut, R.Mackey, or someone else knowledgeable about aerodynamics can refine this. So actually the aircraft would have had to have flown for about eight minutes at about 800 kts, then dropped their tanks, and continued flying at about Mach 1.8 (even air-to-air missiles create some drag, and max speed figures are for completely clean aircraft). Eight minutes at 800 kts would get them about 120 statute miles; still short of DC, with over half of their fuel used, when they drop their tanks.

The "elephant in the room" with regard to AA77 is that no one knew where it was and very few people even suspected it was a hijacking. The Langley fighters were not scrambled to intercept AA77 - they were scrambled to intercept AA11, which NEADS had incorrectly been told was still airborne.

Maybe if NEADS had been told AA77 was hijacked and headed for Washington DC they would have scrambled the Langley fighters, sent them on full afterburner to Washington, and ordered them to shoot the airliner down. Who knows? But that's irrelevant. Because NEADS weren't told. No one knew to tell them.

 

[bio]

The reason scramblings were never coordinated by the NMCC on 9/11 was because the FAA never officially requested a scramble.

Can anything make you wary?
The "no-coordination" that day was so strange or not?

According to Belger, since the FAA does not have direct dedicated communication links with NORAD, in a hijack scenario the NMCC has “the responsibility to coordinate DOD’s response to requests from the FAA or the FBI.”
9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004

Belger: “I´ve lived through dozen of hijackings in my 30-years FAA-career … and (the NMCC) were always there. They were always on the net. And were always listening in with everybody else. (…) The most frustrating after-the-fact scenario for me to understand is to explain … the communication link on that morning between the FAA operations center and the NMCC … I know how it´s supposed to work, but … it´s still a little frustrating for me to understand how it actually did work on that day.”
9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004 p.36

How can you blame the FAA, if the FAA successfully established phone-bridges to Richard Clarke or the secret service on that day?

Shortly after the WTC is hit, the FAA opens a telephone line with the Secret Service to keep the White House informed of all events. A few days later, Vice President Cheney will state, “The Secret Service has an arrangement with the FAA. They had open lines after the World Trade Center was…” (He stopped himself before finishing the sentence.)
MSNBC, 9/16/2001

 

[lapman]

Can anything make you wary?
The "no-coordination" that day was so strange or not?

According to Belger, since the FAA does not have direct dedicated communication links with NORAD, in a hijack scenario the NMCC has “the responsibility to coordinate DOD’s response to requests from the FAA or the FBI.”
9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004

Belger: “I´ve lived through dozen of hijackings in my 30-years FAA-career … and (the NMCC) were always there. They were always on the net. And were always listening in with everybody else. (…) The most frustrating after-the-fact scenario for me to understand is to explain … the communication link on that morning between the FAA operations center and the NMCC … I know how it´s supposed to work, but … it´s still a little frustrating for me to understand how it actually did work on that day.”
9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004 p.36

How can you blame the FAA, if the FAA successfully established phone-bridges to Richard Clarke or the secret service on that day?

Shortly after the WTC is hit, the FAA opens a telephone line with the Secret Service to keep the White House informed of all events. A few days later, Vice President Cheney will state, “The Secret Service has an arrangement with the FAA. They had open lines after the World Trade Center was…” (He stopped himself before finishing the sentence.)
MSNBC, 9/16/2001

Can you provide proof that there was a dedicated, hardwire link between the FAA and NMCC?
If it was an ASDL link or even a IP link, I can see why they would have difficulties. After the first crash, the phone lines would have been clogged and the internet backbone would have been clogged as well with video and audio streams. We used to use ASDL links for our video conferencing. Even though we had 6 lines, there were many times that none of them would connect for various reasons.

 

[tsig]

The main problem this day was, that the FAA could not reach the the NMCC until 10:17 a.m on 9/11:
10:17 am: FAA finally joins NMCC Teleconference. It cannot join because “technical difficulties.” So leaders from NORAD and FAA are out of contact during crisis.
9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004

“Prior to 9/11, FAA’s traditional communication channel with the military during a crisis had been through the National Military Command Center (NMCC). They were always included in the communication net that was used to manage a hijack incident.” Berger says that, since the FAA does not have direct dedicated communication links with NORAD, in a hijack scenario the NMCC has “the responsibility to coordinate [Defense Department]‘s response to requests from the FAA or the FBI.” [9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004 pdf file; 9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004]
Monte Berger was FAA Acting deputy Administrator.

The National Military Command Center (NMCC) within the Pentagon “is the focal point within Department of Defense for providing assistance. In the event of a hijacking, the NMCC will be notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA. The NMCC will, with the exception of immediate responses as authorized by reference d, forward requests for DOD assistance to the secretary of defense for approval.”
US Department of Defense, 6/1/

NMCC could not be contacted by the FAA - due to "technical difficulties? Are you serious and believe that incredible story?

I launch my planes

I fly them all around the sky

I don't know where and I don't know why

I fly them here and there and all around the world

Some say I'm doing alright for a guy.


(melanie)

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Can you provide proof that there was a dedicated, hardwire link between the FAA and NMCC?
If it was an ASDL link or even a IP link, I can see why they would have difficulties. After the first crash, the phone lines would have been clogged and the internet backbone would have been clogged as well with video and audio streams. We used to use ASDL links for our video conferencing. Even though we had 6 lines, there were many times that none of them would connect for various reasons.

Just as a small derail: Oh, man, do I ever remember the difficulty of getting internet news that day! NYTimes and other news sources basically got slashdotted. We ended up getting rabbit ears for the teleconferencing "equipment" (a Sony 30" TV; we don't have cable at work) to watch the news.

There was something really ominous about hearing that the second tower got hit, and seeing news sites just hang, or even time out with 408 errors. We all at work thought the first hit was a fluke, just some lost private pilot, but the second hit really got our attention.

[/derail]

 

[tsig]

His statement makes clear he knows how to intercept a plane.He needed do anything else that morning. It would be foolish to think a fighter pilot doesnt know air interception.

All they have to be told is where, and what to do.

You do a very poor job of defending the standdown, very poor.

Those two fighters at Langley could have flown on burners to the Pentagon, dealt with 77, and landed at Andrews, same with the Otis assets.

The fact is, they just plain didnt want them getting there, and did a very poor job of balancing out how to look competent and aggressive all while creeping to intercepts, and late at that.

I enjoy the rolling out of this debunkable spewage you guys post. It lets me know, from this bastion of official lie slurpage, just how thin the veneer covering this treasonous set of acts is.

If i had a good audio video operator, and an hour on a prime time netowrk, i would have these people scurrying into the rat holes they belong.

The plausibility of a standdown dwarfs the official, three times morphed slime we have been told vai official channels.

So If frogs could fly dwarfs would rule.

 

[roundhead]

9:06 a.m.: Order to halt traffic is expanded to include the entire northeast from Washington to Cleveland. FAA's air traffic control center outside Washington D.C. notifies all air traffic facilities nationwide of the suspected hijacking of American Airlines Flight 11.


Why hasnt NORAD scrambled any fighters to protect Washington D.C. by 9:05? How could they not have? Two airliners have already hit the WTC. Nine minutes ago the transponder on American Airlines Flight 77 was shut off and it made a 180 degree turn and has been heading directly for Washington D.C. for 6 minutes. Perhaps now would be a good time to remember that New York City and Washington D.C. are far and away the top two cities in the United States that would be targeted by terrorists. Why hasnt NORAD scrambled any fighters to protect Washington D.C. by 9:05? Stand Down.


9:11 a.m.: The two F-15 Eagles from Otis Air National Guard station in Falmouth; Massachusetts finally make it to NYC and the WTC. So, it takes these two F-15s, which have a top speed of 1875+ MPH, 19 minutes to cover the 153 miles from Otis to the WTC. This means their average flight speed from Otis to the WTC was only 483.2 MPH or just 25.8% of their top speed. A little math exposes these window dressing fighters for what they are. Thank you NORAD for your September 18, 20001 Press Release. Stand Down.



9:24 a.m.: The FAA notifies NORAD that American Airlines Flight 77 has been hijacked. The FAA lost contact with American Airlines Flight 77 when the transponder signal stops at 8:56 a.m. -- Why does it take 33 minutes for the FAA to tell NORAD that American Airlines Flight 77 has been hijacked? Impossible. Stand Down.


Why wasnt Langley AFB scrambled at 8:20 or 8:40 or 8:46:26 or at the very least at 9:02:54? How could NORAD possibly have waited the 21 minutes from the time United Airlines Flight 175 hits the South Tower of the WTC at 9:02:54 before finally scrambling Langley at 9:24? Waiting these 21 extra minutes to finally scramble Langley is the real smoking gun Stand Down that no one can get around


9:30 a.m.: Two, possibly three F-16 Fighting Falcons code-named Huntress take off from Langley AFB headed at first toward at NYC. A couple of minutes into their mission, according to General Haugen "A person came on the radio and identified themselves as being with the Secret Service" and said, "I want you to protect the White House at all costs." The F-16s laid in a new course and vectored to Washington D.C. Since both Washington D.C. and New York City are both north of Langley, and this happened within a couple of minutes of take-off, this was not a factor in why these F-16 fighters were flying so slow.


Why were these fighters headed to NYC when American Airlines Flight 77 has been headed directly for Washington D.C. for the last 31 minutes, and with their communication and transponder turned off for 34 minutes? There are no airliners headed for NYC or anywhere else with their communication and transponders turned off. Also, at 9:25 air traffic controllers have already informed the United States Secret Service in Washington D.C. that American Airlines Flight 77 is approaching them very fast. So why are these F-16s first flying toward NYC? Stand Down.


9:33 a.m.: According to The New York Times, American Airlines Flight 77 was lost at 8:56 when it turned off its transponder, and stayed lost until now. Washington air traffic control sees a fast moving blip on their radar at this time and sends a warning to Dulles Airport in Washington. Is it conceivable that an airplane could be lost inside United States air space for 37 minutes? Stand Down


8:43 a.m.: The FAA notifies NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 has been hijacked. NORAD has officially admitted that the FAA told them about the hijacking of United Airlines Flight 175 at 8:43. So, now NORAD knows about two hijackings and American Airlines Flight 11 has been barreling down on New York City since turning south at 8:26, and is just 3 minutes away from impacting the WTC. What does NORAD do with this new information? Do they immediately scramble the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts? Again, no they dont, they sit on this most vital information of now two hijacked airliners. Stand Down.


8:46 a.m.: NORAD orders the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts to scramble two of their F-15 fighters. This is from the 102nd Fighter Wing's mission statement of September 11, 2001. "Our aircraft and their crews are on continuous 24-hour, 365-day alert to guard our skies. The 102nd Fighter Wing's area of responsibility includes over 500,000 square miles, 90 million people, and the major industrial centers of Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington, D.C."


NORAD, by their own account, held on to the most vital information of American Airlines Flight 11 hijacking for at least 6 minutes before ordering Otis to scramble. NORAD, by their own account, held on to the most vital information of United Airlines Flight 175 hijacking for at least 3 minutes before ordering Otis to scramble.

 

[roundhead]

To say a plane became "invisible"because it turned its transponder off is fantasy.


Confirm this by visiting the Canadian Defense website again,
"Canada-United States Defense Regulations."

http://www.dnd.ca/menu/canada-us/bg00.010_e.htm
or
http://www.Public-Action.com/911/norad

"NORAD uses a network of ground-based radars, sensors and fighter
jets to detect, intercept and, if necessary, engage any threats to
the continent."

Transponders help to filter out all identifiable aircraft for NORAD
and allow them to focus on those craft that are unidentified. An
aircraft flying without a transponder gets special attention. NORAD
must have known when each of the transponders in the four "suicide"
jets was turned off, and must have known immediately. At all times,
NORAD must have known the location of each of the four planes.



The Christian
Science Monitor says of Flight 11:

"Shortly afterward, as aircraft (sic) was making its turn toward New
York City, the plane's transponder was turned off. With its
transponder off, its altitude became a matter of guesswork for the
controllers, although the plane was still visible on radar ..."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0912/p1s1-usju.html

 

[bio]

Can you provide proof that there was a dedicated, hardwire link between the FAA and NMCC?
If it was an ASDL link or even a IP link, I can see why they would have difficulties. After the first crash, the phone lines would have been clogged and the internet backbone would have been clogged as well with video and audio streams. We used to use ASDL links for our video conferencing. Even though we had 6 lines, there were many times that none of them would connect for various reasons.

I should proof, that the hijack-net to the NMCC had to sustain? No - that is your job debunker: Proof, that it really had to fail due to "technical difficulties"! And proof, why the "hijack-net" to NMCC stood at 10:17 am again (but to this time everything was over, as we know nowadays).
I know, what you will tell me: Just a coincidence. That is incredible, because FAA was able to set up bridges to others.

10:17 am. FAA finally joins NMCC Teleconference. It cannot join because “technical difficulties.” So leaders from NORAD and FAA are out of contact during crisis.

8:50 am. According to a statement by two high-level FAA officials, “Within minutes after the first aircraft hit the World Trade Center, the FAA immediately established several phone bridges [i.e., telephone conference calls] that included FAA field facilities, the FAA command center, FAA headquarters, [Defense Department], the Secret Service, and other government agencies.”
9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003

 

[roundhead]

The FAA informed NORAD of American Airlines Flight 11 striking the World Trade Center. NORAD says it doesnt tell the two F-15 pilots now scrambling to take-off from Otis that American Airlines Flight 11 has hit the WTC until 8:57. Why not? Especially when there is another hijacked airliner, United Airlines Flight 175, so close to New York City -- and at 8:49 it turns and heads straight on for New York City?

 

[lapman]

I should proof, that the hijack-net to the NMCC had to sustain? No - that is your job debunker: Proof, that it really had to fail due to "technical difficulties"! And proof, why the "hijack-net" to NMCC stood at 10:17 am again (but to this time everything was over, as we know nowadays).
I know, what you will tell me: Just a coincidence. That is incredible, because FAA was able to set up bridges to others.

Yes, it 100% up to you to prove that they had a hard link. Just because the setup "phone bridges," does not mean that the could be sustained, especially with the HUGE amount of phone traffic. You also have to prove that the sustained the other bridges for the entire time. You then have to prove that the difficulty only happened on 9/11 and no other time in history. You are the one making the claim that the difficulties were manufactured. The onus is on you to back that up.

 

[T.A.M.]

This entire topic boils down to this.

If you are able to (seems impossible for the truthers to do) look at what happened with a PRE 9/11 mindset, there was nothing inappropriate or suspicious about the actions of the FAA, NORAD, or the ATCs involved. There were mistakes, no doubt, even some blunders, but I have yet to see one shred of evidence concerning the alleged "standdown" that makes me go "hmmm that is suspicious", and I have seen in the 2 years here, almost everything the truthers have on this argument.

TAM

 

[kookbreaker]

But hey, it took Stinett 17 years of study to finally get Pearl Harbor right. .

Stinett didn't get anything right. He merely wasted his time finding a way to put out a bunch of endnotes that make it seem like his work is researched, but in fact his sources contradict him.

The only folks who support Stinett's work are fools, conspiracy-driven nutcases, and far-right neo-cons who want to thrash FDR's legacy.

 

[tsig]

For the record, i have posted over at CIT maybe 10 times in my life. Go check. In my short time there i was able to see how Craig was railroaded over here. Hence my post (you are obviously referencing)about being here.

I have yet to form an opinion as to his findings regarding the Pentagon, and if you like read my posts over there for confirmation of that.


Regarding my Naval service, tread lightly friend. I can provide any manner of proof of my service, schools attended, duty stations, you name it. Things somebody who hasnt served wouldnt have a clue about.
Up to an including a certain hash experience inside a Tomcat engine on the Kennedy's hangar deck:

Just another in the roundhead barrel.