• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

WTC 1 & 2. What happened after collapse initiation?

Big chunks of structural parts are thrown out sideways. Heiwa is told that the upper block crushes down the structure below ... but Heiwa cannot see any upper block with roof and antenna crushing anything ... and then that this upper block lands on the rubble it has created below ... and that finally the upper block collapses. The roof and antenna should therefore be found on top of the rubble but is not found. Heiwa does not believe in fairy tales.
Perhaps because you can't see what happens behind a cloud of dust... On what basis do you assert that the antenna should be at the top? How do you know it would retain a coherent form during and after the collapse? You're asserting things without basis...

Heiwa does not believe that a steel tower with composite floors can be crushed into rubble by a little bit of structure getting loose up top.
You really should start thinking about SCALE. 'a little bit of structure' is ambiguous, just what constitutes as 'a little bit' to you? I saw between 15 and 29 floors of tower fall 12 ft in the initiation. How much do you think those upper sections weighed? How much additional force do you think they hit the floors below the entire section with? simple physics, if a floor was unable to arrest collapse then the mass falls an additional floor height, and the process repeats...

Why is it that you people treat the towers like solid objects?
 
The perimeter columns begin to fall or fail? What is happening to the core columns as the upper section of the tower begins to tilt?
The actions are one and the same, the weight from the structure above combined with heating and the change in geometry from the truss sagging causes them to fail at their connections (most likely, there will potentially be other failure modes but I think connection failure was dominant). Once they have failed at their connections, their only support is from above, therefore they switch to tension.

The core columns have very little ability to resist a rotation, they were only braced on the lowest floors and relied on the moment frame construction of the exterior walls and truss interconnects to handle these sort of forces. As a result they will also fail, potentially at their connections or simply become malleable enough to be bent without much force (depending on their heat).



tanabear said:
NIST stated that one of the objectives of their investigation was to determine:

"why and how the WTC 1 and 2 (the WTC towers) collapsed after the initial impact of the aircraft, and why and how WTC 7 collapsed."
This is more explicitly explained in a series of particular bullet points in the NIST report. Their generalised statement is unfortunately too general but if you are to read that section of the NIST report you may understand more why they did not simulate the whole collapse.

tanabear said:
Why is there any significance to collapse initiation then? If they don't go beyond collapse initiation then they can't tell us why the collapse was global as opposed to merely a local event.
In a way here you are correct, NIST cannot tell you from their authority that the collapse 'should be' global. However they referenced the work of Bazant and as I said, these models have been extensively improved including by members of your own movement. They show that collapse indeed is expected to be global.

With regards to collapse initiation, this is what can be stopped in future buildings. It is pointless trying to spend money on finding out what happened in a collapse when the collapse should never have started in the first place. This is what NISTs recommendations address and they have been accepted by the international community.
 
That was the point I made in my original post. The people here at JREF believe in consensus science as opposed to the experimental method. The educated world at one time largely accepted Aristotle's belief that heavy objects fell faster than lighter objects. Then an upstart scientist named Galileo attempts to test this concept experimentally. Known as the falling bodies experiment, it showed in the absence of air resistance, the speed of a falling body is independent of its weight. What is the best way to determine scientific truth, an opinion poll or the experimental method?

So now all your movement has to do is supply a "Galileo" to prove the "consensus science" regarding 9/11 incorrect.

Why have you been unable to do that?
 
He's not saying that the floor trusses maintained their connections through the entire collapse. It was reference to the incorrect initiation. I fail to see why this is still a debate. In 2005 when Sunder spoke with Popular Mechanics he clearly discussed the pancaking with regards to the squib effect. At this point truss failure was not NIST's belief, because NIST had explained in 2004 that the trusses maintained their connections to the perimeter columns during the collapse initiation. http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=shyam_sunder

Yes after column failure there was some pancaking. Of course there was a pile driver effect.

Compare What Sunder said with Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, "the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially."
PM Sunder:
The WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air — along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse — was ejected with enormous energy. 'When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window,' NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. 'Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition', Sunder adds, 'but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception.'"

Hoffman had the same problem and misconception.

NIST publicly discarded the pancake collapse hypothesis with the publication of their FAQ in August of 2006. It states,

"NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon."

When people speak of the upper block destroying the lower block, then this is the pile-driver explanation. Shyam Sunder stated,

"the entire top of the building came down, pretty much in freefall.."

How is this consistent with pancaking?

People who agree with the official story have had a hard time accounting for the squibs that appear beneath the demolition wave. So they have attempted to create some simple analogies to explain them. His piston analogy is in no way consistent with the pancake collapse hypothesis causing the squibs. These squibs were emerging from floors that were not pancaking, so he needed to come up with a different analogy to explain them. As well, NIST really does not go beyond collapse initiation. They don't have to because Bazant has already shown that the collapse once started would be global. Zdenek Bazant stated in a recent paper,

"In the structural engineering community, one early speculation was that, because of a supposedly insufficient strength of the connections between the floor trusses and the columns, the floors ‘pancaked’ first, leaving an empty framed tube, which lost stability only later. This hypothesis,
however, was invalidated at NIST by careful examination of the photographic record
..."

But if you believe it was a pancake/piledriver collapse, then which floors pancaked and which did not? You should be able to tell by observing the photographic and video record of the collapse.

There is nothing relevant about the collapse of the towers after initiation. I still have no response from you or anyone about why it could be relevant?

It is relevant from a scientific standpoint because if the assumption is that inward bowing of the perimeter columns initiated the collapse, then the dynamics after initiation should appear similar to what happened to the towers on 9/11. How do we know this to be the case? We don't. How would the dynamics of a collapse look different between truss failure, column failure or controlled demolition?
 
It is relevant from a scientific standpoint because if the assumption is that inward bowing of the perimeter columns initiated the collapse, then the dynamics after initiation should appear similar to what happened to the towers on 9/11. How do we know this to be the case? We don't. How would the dynamics of a collapse look different between truss failure, column failure or controlled demolition?

Sorry could you put this into English please?

The bowing of the perimeter columns did what ? What case?

What are you talking about?
 
Last edited:
A) The jet fuel fires melted the steel. This was the first popular explanation given for why the towers collapsed. This hypothesis was supported by various experts soon after 9/11.

1 - Not "melted", softened, reduced the strength. Rendered it unable to support the weight of the building above the fire damaged area.

As for the rest of the stuff ... when the supports are no longer able to resist gravity, gravity wins. Under the influence of gravity, weights tend to head straight down. To make them do anything else, you have to apply a force in another direction sufficient to move the weight in that direction. How heavy was the top of the building?

In the words of any quality control person: It exceeded its design envelope, which resulted in a catastrophic failure.
 
Perhaps because you can't see what happens behind a cloud of dust... On what basis do you assert that the antenna should be at the top? How do you know it would retain a coherent form during and after the collapse? You're asserting things without basis...


You really should start thinking about SCALE. 'a little bit of structure' is ambiguous, just what constitutes as 'a little bit' to you? I saw between 15 and 29 floors of tower fall 12 ft in the initiation. How much do you think those upper sections weighed? How much additional force do you think they hit the floors below the entire section with? simple physics, if a floor was unable to arrest collapse then the mass falls an additional floor height, and the process repeats...

Why is it that you people treat the towers like solid objects?

Heiwa should stand next to a 15 story building and see if it is just a little bit of structure. And think about what would happen if you dropped it twelve feet. When you are looking at a picture of a 110 story building from a distance maybe 15 stories does not look so large. The same goes for the small fires. I have been shown pictures of small fires that actually were a couple of stories high.
 
1 - Not "melted", softened, reduced the strength. Rendered it unable to support the weight of the building above the fire damaged area.

As for the rest of the stuff ... when the supports are no longer able to resist gravity, gravity wins. Under the influence of gravity, weights tend to head straight down. To make them do anything else, you have to apply a force in another direction sufficient to move the weight in that direction. How heavy was the top of the building?

In the words of any quality control person: It exceeded its design envelope, which resulted in a catastrophic failure.

Welcome!

And it is not just jet fuel; That was expended rather quickly; The jet fuel started class-a fires throughout the building that were the ultimate factor that decided its fate.
 
Heiwa should stand next to a 15 story building and see if it is just a little bit of structure. And think about what would happen if you dropped it twelve feet. When you are looking at a picture of a 110 story building from a distance maybe 15 stories does not look so large. The same goes for the small fires. I have been shown pictures of small fires that actually were a couple of stories high.

I maintain that a drop or slump of "mere" inches would have been unstoppable.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by my "poor history and philosophy of science lesson", but since you don't like my example I'll let Michael Crichton explain,

"I want to pause here and talk about this notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had.

Let's be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.

There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period."

Agree or disagree?



If many floors were smashed and compacted into each other, then how do you know this wasn't due to the pile-driver effect? The original explanation promoted by the NOVA documentary was that the buildings pancaked. The initiating event for the pancake collapse was theorized to be truss failure, i.e. the floor trusses broke away from the perimeter columns and the floors began falling on top of each other in a progressive fashion. So truss failure leads to a pancake collapse of successive floors. NIST promoted the idea of column failure due to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns. The trusses maintained their connections to the perimeter columns, and as the floors sagged, the columns were bowed inward and eventually they snapped. This caused the upper block to come crushing down on the lower block. So Shyam Sunder in that interview is stating that there was no pancaking due to the fact that the floor trusses maintained their connections to the perimeter columns. Are you saying that column failure lead to a pancake collapse?



What is dishonest about my signature? I just quoted you and Undesired Walrus. Scientists who have looked at the evidence have questioned the official story, but most aren't paying any attention.


Mark refuted your dishonest insinuations.

Who are the scientists who swallow the fantasy movement's lies?
 
Real engineers and physicists? Rather uniformed diletants. Plenty of those at JREF! Some say they are PhDs but you can buy that title on Internet for a penny. With reference to rubbish the rubble seen being produced and ejected from WTC1 at 911 is good evidence that gravity alone did not cause the WTC1 destruction!
Reason is that gravity forces and released potential energy applied to steel structures with composite steel/cement floors do not produce rubble of any sort! Only local failures ... but no real rubble. Read http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm .
Maybe Nist was blinded by all these smoke, dust, debris and rubble when producing its report? Anyway, Nist failed to address the issue.


I wonder why those uniformed dilletantes are able to destroy your rubbish so easily. Please stop asking people to read your worthless, thoroughly discredited tripe. You are an ineducable incompetent.

If PhDs are available for a penny, the three bucks you paid was too much.
 
Sorry could you put this into English please?

The bowing of the perimeter columns did what ? What case?

What are you talking about?

In other words, if the collapse initiation is due to truss failure would its destruction look the same as if column failure initiated the collapse, i.e. can we expect the collapse to look different based on where the initial failure occurred or should it look the same regardless? Is the video tape evidence so ambiguous that we can't tell how the tower is being destroyed? Is it pancaking or is it a pile driver?

And on the same theme:

A 9/11 Debunker states, "the towers were not destroyed via explosive charges from the top down."

A 9/11 Truther responds, "Okay, but if it were true, how would the collapse of each tower look different from what was actually observed?"
 
Last edited:
Perhaps because you can't see what happens behind a cloud of dust... On what basis do you assert that the antenna should be at the top? How do you know it would retain a coherent form during and after the collapse? You're asserting things without basis...


You really should start thinking about SCALE. 'a little bit of structure' is ambiguous, just what constitutes as 'a little bit' to you? I saw between 15 and 29 floors of tower fall 12 ft in the initiation. How much do you think those upper sections weighed? How much additional force do you think they hit the floors below the entire section with? simple physics, if a floor was unable to arrest collapse then the mass falls an additional floor height, and the process repeats...

Why is it that you people treat the towers like solid objects?

I wonder how all these experts can see what happens behind a cloud of dust. Any ideas?
So you saw 15 floors of WTC1 fall 12 ft? I didn't. Not seen on any video.
Nist & Co treat the tops of the towers as solid objects. I don't.
All your questions are actually answered in my articles. Read them.
 
This I do at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm . When parts fail and displace due to gravity, they seek a new equilibrium.

That is about the stupidest bit of purported engineering I have ever read in my entire life.

This is a mechanical system that cannot tolerate any major failure.

It is not at all like a lattice grid building.

If you have a slump in a building damaged as this one was, and with a considerable segment of the perimeter walls softened, ripped out, and otherwise compromised what happens is that the material that falls in to the floor below pushes out on the walls, snaps, the ordinary 5/8" bolts that attach the floor trusses to the perimeter columns and slides the very narrow clip the truss rests on out from under the lip of the truss. And that makes the next floor fail in turn. It only takes a deflection of about 2' outward to make this happen and less if the floors where the event started are already slumping due to softening by the fire.

This sequence cannot arrest and does not take very much energy at all to keep running; FAR less than the gravitational potential energy provides.

The system will shed wall segments in large bits and those acquire some lateral velocity explaining why wall segments were found so far from the building.

The core need not participate in this failure mode as indeed we saw with the second tower.

I've said it before; You do not understand the structure of this building or the theory of "operation" whereby it stood, so you have no hope of understanding how it failed.

I suspect the thing is beyond your capabilities, but if you want to have it explained to you in some detail, just ask and many of us here can help you learn.
 
This I do at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm . When parts fail and displace due to gravity, they seek a new equilibrium.


I know this is hopeless, but the engineers and scientists have decided that you are unworthy of their continued attention, so I--someone who knows nothing about engineering--will allow myself to be tutored by you.

Let's imagine a very tall building, say, 110 stories high. We magically remove the 109th floor and the 110th floor drops onto the 108th. You contend, I assume, that the 110th becomes the new 109th and a "new equilibrium" has been established. So far, so good.

Now, let's magically remove the 80th floor. Floors 81 through 110 drop onto the 79th floor. You're saying that this is the same thing? Really? Are you seriously arguing that dropping thirty floors onto a floor designed to support the single floor directly above it won't crush the whole structure?

You think the same "new equilibrium" would be established as in the first instance?

Please--enlighten me.
 
And let's not forget to ask ourselves how the collapse initiation would be different if caused by space beams.
 
A 9/11 Debunker states, "the towers were not destroyed via explosive charges from the top down."

A 9/11 Truther responds, "Okay, but if it were true, how would the collapse of each tower look different from what was actually observed?"



Watch a few videos of controlled demolitions using explosives.
I suggest you turn off the sound, if you only wish to focus on appearance.

The first thing you'll notice is that the building is gutted. This is done for a reason. I'll let you guess what that reason is (hint: it has to do with pressure waves).
Next, before the collapse, you will see a series of flashes. These will travel throughout the area to be demolished. To my understanding, they destroy secondary supports and structures that might interfere with a nice, neat implosion.
Immediately after the first flashes, you will see more flashes. Lots of flashes. These cut the main supports.
From there, gravity takes over. understand something: buildings want to fall. Gravity is a persuasive siren, eternally trying to lure all things into her crushing embrace.
Gravity is always acting on a building. The only reason most buildings do not collapes is because their structure is carefully designed to resist this inexorable force. Weaken a part of it, you weaken the sturcture. Weaken enough parts, and the structure will fail.
In a real controlled demolition, all the supports will be severed, withing a very short time frame. This prevents any one support throwing the collapse off-kilter before it gives way.

How does this differ from what you would expect to see in WTC 1 & 2?
For one thing, there are no flashes.
For another, only a few floors failed initially. The rest came tumbling down because the structure could not handle that kind of strain. As an engineering student, I apologizze on behalf of the whole profession if you don't like the idea that engineers didn't have the forsight to factor having the top part of a skyscraper fall on the bottom section into their designs.

It has been explained eloquently in other threads why the upper section would not tip or slide over the side like a tree being felled.

And I hope you can understand that the collapse can only progress in one direction: downwards, into the bosom of that temptress gravity.

However: note all the the debris being jetisoned out to the side. The main mass of the building went the only direction it could go: down.
But on it's way, it displaced some other parts, and sent large chunks of debris flying a considerable distance. Debris which caused considerable damage to, among other things, nearby buildings.

That is why real controlled demolitions use so many explosives in so many places. To cut the supports so that pieces don't fly everywhere.

If we assume that the demolition contractors were utterly amoral, and aside from dropping a building that had people in it (because you can argue that they weren't told it would be occupied, even though the fact that it wasn't gutted would be, to say the least, suspicious), then you could assume that said contractors might concievably be willing to demolish a building, in secret, in the middle of down town New York, without caring about the ejected debris and the damage that might cause.

If you can find a demolition contractor willing to place the required explosives in secret in a public office building in downtown New York, leaving no traces behind at all, on a short schedule, knowing that the demolition will injure or kill innocent people, for a never-before-tried type of demolition and making it progress silently and without visbile flashes or recorded seismic shocks, all the while pulling in the walls in the manner that was observed, then all that's left is to ensure that the plane hits the building around the same area the explosives are (because it would look suspicious if the plane hit the top 5 floors, but the collapse started a good distance below that) and the explosives and their detonators somehow survive the impact and ensuing fires.


So, if you can do all that (and probably a few more things I forgot), then you might have a controlled demolition that would resemble what was witnessed.

Assuming nothing else went wrong.


I will have you note that the situation I put forward is what you and all other "towers were controlled demolition" proponents are claimig happened. It is not a straw man.

Unless, of course, you are either a no-planer, no-claimer, space-beamer, or mini-nuker. Or any combination thereof.
In which case, get help.
 
Since the people here at JREF believe in consensus science as opposed to the experimental method, maybe now they can come to a consensus regarding what happened to the towers after collapse initiation. So offer your best explanation for what happened after collapse initiation?
E=mgh (take a physics course and stop making yourself look undereducated)

The energy of the building was released. If you understood physics, you would see how the building was overwhelmed. If you need a hit, there is information in NIST and many other sources showing the strength of the WTC, and the possible limits that were exceeded leading to failure. Physics is what shows you why the damage at the WTC complex looked like hundreds of 2000 pound bombs hit the WTC. I wonder why you are unable to produce a simple energy equation, E=mgh!

Why is 9/11 truth, and you void of all signs of understanding simple math, and physics? Why are you so lacking in knowledge of 9/11 and actually posting a very dumb OP?

7th year, and not a clue for 9/11 true or you, why?
 

Back
Top Bottom