Offer to the Truth Movement: Let's Settle It

Well, i hardly think it would "settle it", but reading these debates
about WTC as a layman, i wonder why these combatants don´t come together
and actually build a model of one of the towers and try to bring it down
in a fashion that resembles the Twin Towers collapse?

The "come together part" is the biggest obstacle i presume?

There will be conflicts on how the model should be constructed and how the experiment is going to be conducted etc , just a wild guess....;)

Do numerical models count?

If they do, then Drs. Bazant and Verdure, Dr. Greening, and Dr. Seffen have created numerical models -- not full-blown simulations, mind you, but mathematical models under varying assumptions -- that demonstrate this nicely. So has Jim Hoffman of the Truth Movement, although oddly he rejects his own conclusion. In contrast, there have been no simulations or models that predict a partial collapse that don't have extremely large and obvious flaws.

Regarding full-blown simulation of the collapse, this is the only one I know of, which has some questionable assumptions but nonetheless gives us a starting point.

If you insist on a physical simulation, Dave Rogers is correct to bring up questions of scaling. These can be solved with some care.

Frankly, the issue of progressive collapse is not the least bit in dispute. Only the uneducated and the paranoid continue to cling to this belief. As a result, there isn't much professional scientific interest in modeling the collapse. Other questions, such as the effectiveness of fireproofing, global response of complex designs, and the actual severity of "ordinary" office fires are much more important.
 
Two Questions


1.Why did OBL deny involvement in the 9/11 attacks. I would think he would have been proud of his efforts.


2. Why did the terrorists (in particular at the Pentagon) go out of they're way to cause the least amount of damage and loss of life.

It makes perfectly good senee to me to have attacked a reactor or something that would have brought the country to a complete standstill, and affected perhaps millions of lives, and actually have accomplished that with less chance of mission failure. ie...tough spiral was made at Pentagon to hit a sparsley populated area, roof would have been easier and more damaging.

Towers could well have been missed by untested pilots, a nuclear facility would have been an easier target, and the "scare factor"100 times more.
 
Two Questions


1.Why did OBL deny involvement in the 9/11 attacks. I would think he would have been proud of his efforts.

It isn't clear that he did. The denial so frequently referenced was second-hand, from the Taliban, and very soon after the event. I suspect that that Taliban was doing their best attempt at damage control, and trying to stave off their impending removal from power. There are plenty of reasons that explain this behavior, yet are consistent with him actually planning the operation.

However, we need not speculate, because bin Laden did admit involvement and has expressed pride therein, in numerous communications since then. We cannot accept only this first outlier while dismissing the rest. Either all of his messages are suspect (in which case we turn to the forensic evidence, which pins it on him securely), or we accept that he did eventually admit it completely. Either way there's no compelling case to be made that he wasn't involved.


2. Why did the terrorists (in particular at the Pentagon) go out of they're way to cause the least amount of damage and loss of life.

They did not. If you're referring to the aircraft hitting the recently reinforced wedge of the Pentagon, there's a reason why that wedge was rebuilt first -- it's the side facing Reagan National Airport, and thus the side most likely to be struck by an aircraft. It's also the side that Hani would have been in the best position to hit, given his trajectory and location when he apparently first achieved a visual fix on his target.

One could also make the case that, had an unreinforced section been struck, less of the burning fuel would have been captured inside the structure, instead punching right through. It's not clear the loss of life would have been higher. This is debatable.

It makes perfectly good senee to me to have attacked a reactor or something that would have brought the country to a complete standstill, and affected perhaps millions of lives, and actually have accomplished that with less chance of mission failure. ie...tough spiral was made at Pentagon to hit a sparsley populated area, roof would have been easier and more damaging.

Towers could well have been missed by untested pilots, a nuclear facility would have been an easier target, and the "scare factor"100 times more.

I've seen this referred to as the "If I Ran the Zoo" fallacy. We can only speculate about the inner feelings of the terrorists. I've seen it reported in many places that the attack was symbolic, attempting to hit symbols of the American economy, military, and government in that order, and this is entirely plausible.

I disagree that the roof of the Pentagon would be an easier target. Aircraft are easier to control near a level attitude than in a sharp dive. The Pentagon is high enough that it's pretty straightforward to hit it from the side, as experiments with untrained subjects in simulators have demonstrated. Aiming for the roof doesn't leave as much room for error. You only get one shot at it.

I also dispute the effectiveness of an attack on a nuclear power plant. That's one of the few buildings that might actually survive. Symbolically it would be significant, but I don't see it offers any significant advantage over what was actually done.

I can also think of several scenarios that would be much worse, in terms of casualties and lasting economic damage. No, I will not make these public. But just because one can imagine a potentially more effective plan in no way casts doubt upon the plan itself, nor does it negate the fact that the plan they executed was, sadly, undeniably effective.
 
Yes, i think Daves explanation was exemplary, but my next question was:

What would be the closest thing to compare this collapse with?

If the progressive collapse is not in dispute, what other examples do we
have of it, if any?
 
Yes i mean a physical model.

Why would a large model behave differently than a small model ?
Would not the laws of physics treat them equally and fairly?


That's precisely why it's an issue.

Let me explain it simply.

Imagine a creature that is a perfect cube measuring 10m by 10m by 10m. It also has a mass of exactly 10kg. It therefore has a total volume of 1000m3 (10x10x10) and therefore a density of 0.01 (10 / 1000).

Now let's say we decide to make a 1/10 scale model of our creature to test how it performs under certain conditions.

So we create a creature that's 1m x 1m x 1m. Except it now has a volume of only 1m 3 (1x1x1). We've reduced the dimension by a factor of 10, but volume by a factor of 1000!

It gets worse. Density, of course, is a non-changing trait for a particular substance. It's a product of the atomic mass of the various elements that make up the creature.

But with a volume of only 1m, our creature now only weights 0.01kg. We've reduce the creatures mass by a factor of 1000 as well!

But how does this apply to 9/11? Well our problems only get worse. Let's say we wanted to simulate dropping our fella off a 100m high wall. But we're quite attached to him, so we decided to test our 1/10 scale model creature and drop him off a 1/10 high wall.

Now the Gravitational Potential Energy of an object is calculated as mgh or mass x gravity x height.

So for our actually fella we'd be looking at 10 x 9.8 x 100 which gives us a PE of 9,800J.

In contrast our scale fella works out to be 0.01 x 9.8 x 10 which gives us a mere 0.98J.

That's right, we've reduced our scale factor by only ten, but we've reduced the amount of energy involved by a factor of TEN THOUSAND. That's a big problem.

And that's why you can't use scale models to test the collapse of the WTC.
 
We're all aware of the fact that there were multiple entities at Ground Zero examining the debris in the aftermath of the collapse, among them an NYPD Crime Scene Unit, an FBI's Evidence Response Team, the New York City Medical Examiner's representatives (in plain english, the city coroners), the Customs Agency, etc. Of particular interest is the FBI's Evidence Response Team's findings. Are you aware of the release of any report by the FBI documenting their findings at Ground Zero?



I'm not aware of any report from the FBI about its findings at Ground Zero, and I wouldn't expect there to be one - the evidence was gathered for prosecution in court, not for a scientific paper. Amongst other things, the purpose of the evidence is to prove the positive, not to disprove the negative. You don't see experts at a murder trial testifying that the victim was certainly not killed by a bow and arrow; you give evidence that they were shot by a gun belonging to the defendant.

Having said that, it has been reported that the initial FBI investigation was assuming that the aircraft impacts had been joined by coordinated truck bombs in the building basement or similar. Given their initial hypothesis, it seems at least possible that the FBI Evidence Response Teams (there were fifty of them working the Fresh Kills crime scene alone, and more at Ground Zero and the other sorting areas) looked for evidence of explosives in the early days of their investigation.
 
It isn't clear that he did. The denial so frequently referenced was second-hand, from the Taliban, and very soon after the event. I suspect that that Taliban was doing their best attempt at damage control, and trying to stave off their impending removal from power. There are plenty of reasons that explain this behavior, yet are consistent with him actually planning the operation.

However, we need not speculate, because bin Laden did admit involvement and has expressed pride therein, in numerous communications since then. We cannot accept only this first outlier while dismissing the rest. Either all of his messages are suspect (in which case we turn to the forensic evidence, which pins it on him securely), or we accept that he did eventually admit it completely. Either way there's no compelling case to be made that he wasn't involved.




They did not. If you're referring to the aircraft hitting the recently reinforced wedge of the Pentagon, there's a reason why that wedge was rebuilt first -- it's the side facing Reagan National Airport, and thus the side most likely to be struck by an aircraft. It's also the side that Hani would have been in the best position to hit, given his trajectory and location when he apparently first achieved a visual fix on his target.

One could also make the case that, had an unreinforced section been struck, less of the burning fuel would have been captured inside the structure, instead punching right through. It's not clear the loss of life would have been higher. This is debatable.



I've seen this referred to as the "If I Ran the Zoo" fallacy. We can only speculate about the inner feelings of the terrorists. I've seen it reported in many places that the attack was symbolic, attempting to hit symbols of the American economy, military, and government in that order, and this is entirely plausible.

I disagree that the roof of the Pentagon would be an easier target. Aircraft are easier to control near a level attitude than in a sharp dive. The Pentagon is high enough that it's pretty straightforward to hit it from the side, as experiments with untrained subjects in simulators have demonstrated. Aiming for the roof doesn't leave as much room for error. You only get one shot at it.

I also dispute the effectiveness of an attack on a nuclear power plant. That's one of the few buildings that might actually survive. Symbolically it would be significant, but I don't see it offers any significant advantage over what was actually done.

I can also think of several scenarios that would be much worse, in terms of casualties and lasting economic damage. No, I will not make these public. But just because one can imagine a potentially more effective plan in no way casts doubt upon the plan itself, nor does it negate the fact that the plan they executed was, sadly, undeniably effective.




I have come to the conclusion you are out of your mind, no matter your credentials or education.


Flying a plane that clips light poles, right on the deck, and impacts a building right above ground level is easier than simply flying in through the ceiling of the building. You are friggin crazy.

Its a wonder clipping five poles didnt take the plane down .Its also almost impossible to beleive a guy with at most extremely limited skills could fly a large jet into a wall with his engines 8-10 feet off the ground.

The pilot performed quite a manuever just to line up on that wall.
 
Last edited:
I have come to the conclusion you are out of your mind, no matter your credentials or education.


Flying a plane that clips light poles, right on the deck, and impacts a building right above ground level is easier than simply flying in through the ceiling of the building. You are friggin crazy.

Its a wonder clipping five poles didnt take the plane down .Its also almost impossible to beleive a guy with at most extremely limited skills could fly a large jet into a wall with his engines 8-10 feet off the ground.

The pilot performed quite a manuever just to line up on that wall.

And training dive bombers is easy! Diving into a structure is difficult because the nose of the aircraft is rarely pointed in the same direction that the plane is flying. Flying horizontal is easy because the using level ground as a reference is basic. All pilots do it to land.
 
The pilot performed quite a manuever just to line up on that wall.

What?? What do you mean by "quite a maneuver"? Look at the map here. He did a simple turn, most likely to lose altitude. He continued on to hit the same side - the Western side - that faced the direction he was coming from the whole time.

If Hanjour maneuvered around to hit the North or East side, I'd concede your point, but he didn't. He hit the same side he had been heading towards for miles.
 
If Hanjour maneuvered around to hit the North or East side, I'd concede your point, but he didn't. He hit the same side he had been heading towards for miles.[/QUOTE]


This testimony, refutes your above statement, concisely.


Danielle O' Brien


"The Speed, the maneuverability,the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You dont fly a 757 in that manner.Its Unsafe."

The above quote of course doent even consider clipping light poles and being just barely off the deck prior to impact.

No, i think hitting the roof would have been way easier, a much bigger target, and caused way, way more damage and loss of life.

I am way passed being convinced otherwise. In short, hardest target , with least damage, and involved most dangerous path to hitting building
 
I have come to the conclusion you are out of your mind, no matter your credentials or education.


Flying a plane that clips light poles, right on the deck, and impacts a building right above ground level is easier than simply flying in through the ceiling of the building. You are friggin crazy.

Its a wonder clipping five poles didnt take the plane down .Its also almost impossible to beleive a guy with at most extremely limited skills could fly a large jet into a wall with his engines 8-10 feet off the ground.

The pilot performed quite a manuever just to line up on that wall.

Have you ever flown a plane? Just wondering…
 
Have you ever flown a plane? Just wondering…

Nope.

I go by what was obviously a consenus among experts that the manuever was military like and obviously involved a very good degree of skill.

I also know of at least one example where a plane hit a lightpole or similar object and came down immediately because of it.

In this case it hit 5 poles without seeming effect. As the plane had a quite level attitude at impact, only several feet off the deck.

I would like an experts opinions on how easy it is to fly a jetliner several feet off the deck and maintain level flight. After having survived impact with 5 lightpoles. And after having performed a remarkable maneuver to even get to that point.

Remarkable to even experts.

Even more remarkable when the guy had problems with even a Cessna.

Whole lot of factors make this whole scenario stink to high heaven
 
Last edited:
I have come to the conclusion you are out of your mind, no matter your credentials or education.


Flying a plane that clips light poles, right on the deck, and impacts a building right above ground level is easier than simply flying in through the ceiling of the building. You are friggin crazy.

Its a wonder clipping five poles didnt take the plane down .Its also almost impossible to beleive a guy with at most extremely limited skills could fly a large jet into a wall with his engines 8-10 feet off the ground.

The pilot performed quite a manuever just to line up on that wall.

Are you a pilot? If you are, would you find flying a less-than-standard-rate turn to be "quite a maneuver"?
 
Are you a pilot? If you are, would you find flying a less-than-standard-rate turn to be "quite a maneuver"?


The ATC'S in that quote certainly didnt consider it less than standard. They thought it exactly the opposite.
 
It probably would have, had the plane not impacted the Pentagon a split second later. Read up on something called momentum.



The engines were nearly at ground level at impact. That leaves zero room for error.

Common sense would dictate that even a few hundred yards away, those poles would have a major impact on the attitude of that plane.

Btw, we are talking about a guy who wasnt allowed to even rent a Cessna because he sucked at flying even that . In particular if that was who was at the controls

Its an UNBELIEVABLE story that invites a very high degree of speculation.
 
The engines were nearly at ground level at impact. That leaves zero room for error.

Common sense would dictate that even a few hundred yards away, those poles would have a major impact on the attitude of that plane.

Btw, we are talking about a guy who wasnt allowed to even rent a Cessna because he sucked at flying even that . In particular if that was who was at the controls

Its an UNBELIEVABLE story that invites a very high degree of speculation.

What, like 360 degrees?
 
The engines were nearly at ground level at impact. That leaves zero room for error.

How fast was the plane moving when it hit the lightpoles and how far away was the first lightpole? You should know these answers to have any sort of doubt about the apparent lack of effect of the poles on the plane's trajectory.
 
The engines were nearly at ground level at impact. That leaves zero room for error.

Common sense would dictate that even a few hundred yards away, those poles would have a major impact on the attitude of that plane.

Btw, we are talking about a guy who wasnt allowed to even rent a Cessna because he sucked at flying even that . In particular if that was who was at the controls

Its an UNBELIEVABLE story that invites a very high degree of speculation.

What do you think knocked down the poles?
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom