[Split]Debris piles at GZ- split from: UL Moves For Sanctions Against Morgan Reynold

Although the key is illegible, I will take your word that the color gradations go from -25 to 100 and that there are 5 colors. OK so far? So that means each color has an undifferentiated range of 25 ft, still OK? That means, then, that simply within each color, your chart measurement has a possible error of from 1 to 25 ft.

Note, if the entire chart is only showing 125 ft, of which only 100 is above 0, the chart contains a built in error rate of 25%

That is useless information, in my view.

What those of you who need this chart to work for you might do, is correlate specific areas of it to some of the better photographs posted on earlier pages of this thread. This assumes, of course, that there exists a genuine interest in knowing the height of relevant areas of GZ.

Perhaps all of us can step back here and ask ourselves whether, within this thread, there exists sufficient data to advance the state of knowledge on the issue of GZ's height?

13012484ff412c0bce.jpg
 
Although the key is illegible, I will take your word that the color gradations go from -25 to 100 and that there are 5 colors. OK so far? So that means each color has an undifferentiated range of 25 ft, still OK? That means, then, that simply within each color, your chart measurement has a possible error of from 1 to 25 ft.

Note, if the entire chart is only showing 125 ft, of which only 100 is above 0, the chart contains a built in error rate of 25%

That is useless information, in my view.

What those of you who need this chart to work for you might do, is correlate specific areas of it to some of the better photographs posted on earlier pages of this thread. This assumes, of course, that there exists a genuine interest in knowing the height of relevant areas of GZ.

Perhaps all of us can step back here and ask ourselves whether, within this thread, there exists sufficient data to advance the state of knowledge on the issue of GZ's height?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/13012484ff412c0bce.jpg


Can we assume that reports stating that ALL structural steel was recovered--none of it was "dustified"-- were false? How do you know this?
 
Perhaps all of us can step back here and ask ourselves whether, within this thread, there exists sufficient data to advance the state of knowledge on the issue of GZ's height?

Sure. I believe there is sufficient data to show that you are either delusional or in denial.
 
Image151.jpg




groundzero.jpg


For reference and use in conjunction with the color chart in post # 441
 
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[qimg]http://drjudywood.co.uk/articles/DEW/dewpics/Image151.jpg[/qimg]



[qimg]http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/images/groundzero.jpg[/qimg]

For reference and use in conjunction with the color chart in post # 441

How many days into clean-up, are your pictures? Lots of cranes.
 
It might or might not be possible to pick a spot that is common to the chart in 441 and the 2 pics in 444. Also, another hampering factor is that they are not all aligned in the same N/S configuration. However, it may be possible to engage in useful comparison here, we'll see.
 
How many days into clean-up, are your pictures? Lots of cranes.

Good question. I, too, noticed that there's evidence of signficant cleanup in the first picture in 444 in comparison with the second.

It may be we'll have to take a bit longer and find pictures that appear to be common in time. By the way, say again the date of the Lidar chart?

thanks
 
Of course, we now know that posting pictures, statements, charts, you name it, is next to useless in any event as people do not believe their own eyes in connection with the events of 9/11.

Jammonius you got this correct at least. Except you are the one who refuses to believe your own eyes . the only explanations I can see are either you are deluded or you are just playing games.

It is useless to engage you in any meaningful discussion. you are not related to Terral by any chance?
 
By the way, say again the date of the Lidar chart?

You're joking, right? I think this just goes to show that you don't even bother looking at your opponent's arguements. Just keep repeating "GZ was flat, GZ was flat, GZ was flat," I'm sure in some reality it wil become true.
 
oh, alright, 9/19. Now, can we agree to look for overhead or other relevant angle photos from at or near the same date? Or is that not a direction posters want to go in?
 
Although the key is illegible, I will take your word that the color gradations go from -25 to 100 and that there are 5 colors. OK so far? So that means each color has an undifferentiated range of 25 ft, still OK? That means, then, that simply within each color, your chart measurement has a possible error of from 1 to 25 ft.


No, it absolutely does not mean this. You have misunderstood, conveniently, the purpose of the color-coding. The boundaries between colors are like contour lines on a topographical map; they merely indicate that all of the areas of a certain color fall into a range of heights. This should be clear from looking at the map, as there are significant details easily discernible within each band.

In fact, according to an article from Point of Beginning, from March 28, 2001, the accuracy of LIDAR surveys at the time was within ± 2 ft, and possibly better depending on conditions.

Note, if the entire chart is only showing 125 ft, of which only 100 is above 0, the chart contains a built in error rate of 25%

That is useless information, in my view.


The above belies a gross misunderstanding of the interpretation of engineering data. First, "error rate" refers to the frequency of errors within a data set. The term you want is "accuracy." Second, as has been noted, even if the accuracy were ±25% (which it isn't, as discussed above), the chart would still indicate that the debris pile for 1 WTC was at least 75 ft tall Additionally, the "entire chart" shows over 1000 feet of altitude; the color bands near the surface are the narrowest because that area is of the most interest.

What those of you who need this chart to work for you might do, is correlate specific areas of it to some of the better photographs posted on earlier pages of this thread. This assumes, of course, that there exists a genuine interest in knowing the height of relevant areas of GZ.


How this chart aligns with a map of Ground Zero is obvious, because the outlines of the remains of most of the buildings is obvious. And as for "need[ing] this chart to work," it's quite clear that you are the one who desperately needs it not to work, as it utterly destroys your one-story debris pile fantasy.

Perhaps all of us can step back here and ask ourselves whether, within this thread, there exists sufficient data to advance the state of knowledge on the issue of GZ's height?


Wishful thinking. The evidence presented is overwhelming; however, you clearly need to pretend that there's still room for debate.
 
Although the key is illegible, I will take your word that the color gradations go from -25 to 100 and that there are 5 colors. OK so far? So that means each color has an undifferentiated range of 25 ft, still OK? That means, then, that simply within each color, your chart measurement has a possible error of from 1 to 25 ft.

Note, if the entire chart is only showing 125 ft, of which only 100 is above 0,...


To clarify, the color gradations for the entire map cover a much wider range. The five colors representing the range from -15 to 100 are the colors in which the debris field are depicted, clearly indicating debris heights ranging from at the very minimum, -6 to 76 feet, which is at least six stories.

...the chart contains a built in error rate of 25%


This is not an error rate, simply a decision to limit the resolution of the color scheme employed by the cartographers to make the map easier to read. A higher resolution of height data is used in the shading algorithm which visually conveys the slopes of the surface.

(Have you ever used a U.S. Geological Survey contour map? It's typical to have contour lines at 100-foot elevation intervals, but that does not mean that there is any 100-foot error in the data.)

Typical aerial LIDAR survey accuracy for height in 2001 was approximately +/- 3 inches. I have inquired at CARSI what the accuracy of the 9/19/01 Ground Zero survey is, for both height and ground-plane position. (And also, whether any higher resolution renderings and/or the raw numeric height field data are available.) I'll let you know any responses I receive.

That is useless information, in my view.


Our views are no one's concern but our own. What's important is the case you can make based on rational evaluation of evidence.

What those of you who need this chart to work for you might do, is correlate specific areas of it to some of the better photographs posted on earlier pages of this thread. This assumes, of course, that there exists a genuine interest in knowing the height of relevant areas of GZ.

Perhaps all of us can step back here and ask ourselves whether, within this thread, there exists sufficient data to advance the state of knowledge on the issue of GZ's height?


No, we do not have to do any such thing. The direct height measurements via LIDAR have precedence over indirect measurements from photographs. There is no advancing the state of GZ's height beyond the LIDAR maps unless more accurate direct height measurements exist.

However, if you wish you can attempt to cast doubt on the accuracy of the LIDAR measurements by showing that they are inconsistent with heights shown in photographs. This would require photographs carefully documented as to date, and careful photometric analysis of them shown step by step so that the methods and calculations can be verified by others. Such analysis typically includes establishing each camera's location, view angle, and focal length based on multiple fixed landmarks whose positions are themselves established by an accurate spatial map (I'd suggest CARSI's NYCMap for this purpose.) Even then, establishing the exact horizontal position and height of a point in the rubble simultaneously (which is 3 unknowns, with only 2 pieces of data to determine them from, the coordinates of the point in the photo image) is going to be a challenge. You'll have to identify the same point in 2 or more photographs taken from different viewpoints and do some math. I doubt that you'll be able to approach the likely (pending verification from CARSI) +/- 3 inch accuracy of the LIDAR data but if there are major inconsistencies in the map you should be able to show them. If you want to do this I'll help examine the results, but the burden of proof for such a claim would be on you and I'm not interested in doing your work for you.

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For those interested in post-9/11 cartography, I'd like to correct an error in an earlier post. I provided what I stated (and thought) was a link to CARSI's page of other Ground Zero mappings and images, but it turns out that page doesn't have its own url so the link went only to CARSI's home page. To see the many fascinating map images, go to http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/~carsi/, then click "Presentations" on the site menu bar, then click the "Woodward Gallery: Charting Ground Zero" link, and finally the "click link to view images" link at the top of the page.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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I cross-posted with SpitfireIX. I based my +/- 3 inch figure on information on a commercial LIDAR site that appeared to be dated 2001, and I also miscalculated (interpreting a conversion result of 6 inches as +/- 3 when it should have been +/- 6). I could edit my post but I'll let the error stand and correct it here. +/- 6 inches vertical accuracy matches what the PoB article describes as typical "published accuracy specifications" but their more thorough analysis is worth considering.

Pending further information from CARSI, I'll accept Spitfire's +/- 2 feet figure, though I will point out that the Ground Zero survey was done specifically to cover a relatively small area and therefore could have been done from a lower altitude, reducing some of the error sources the article describes.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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Yay! Finally a topic I know something about!

I would like to offer a correction to the corrections being made here. The LIDAR data used at the time is likely to have errors in the vertical around +/- 6" due to the nature of how it was being surveyed. However, the TIN may introduce additional errors, as only the corners of each triangle would be accurate, anything on the faces are interpolations. So the total possible error would depend on how closely the data points are sampled. Without having the raw data handy to do a grid analysis, I can roughly calculate from the LIDAR TIN images posted here that the horizontal spacing ranges from about 2 feet to 15 feet, and some of the slopes seem to be fairly steep. This could introduce an error anywhere up to 5' in the vertical. This is certainly close enough for clean-up work, and definitely less than "1 storey" in error. Having access to the raw data would certainly make it much easier to calculate error rates.

The ironic thing about jammonius' comments is that if the site were really as flat as he is claiming, the vertical errors in the triangulation would be almost nil. It takes a steep site to generate large vertical errors.

Jammonius, do you understand how surveying works? Regardless of whether you are using GPS, LIDAR, total station, or pulling good old chains, the most critical part of conducting a survey is establishing benchmarks, and then tying and re-tying the survey into those benchmarks. The ensures the accuracy of the resulting maps, charts, and other presentation pieces.

If Myriad is successful in accessing the raw data (I may put in a request as well as I do have the software that can generate these types of maps from pretty much any source info), we can check the locations and elevations of the benchmarks, compare them to what was known prior to 9/11, and come up with a much better view of the accuracy of the data. As Myriad has commented earlier, photographic analysis is subject to extreme errors compared to raw survey data. With survey data, benchmarks are known and thoroughly documented. With a photograph, not so much. Lens distortion, perspective, camera tilt angle, and (if you are talking about aerial or satellite photos), the general slope of the site can all add to potential pitfalls in estimating elevations.
 
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Hokulele,

I wonder if we could somehow overlay a false-color LIDAR image onto one or two of the site pictures just to show how they relate?

-Ben


CARSI did one here, although I am not thrilled with their use of transparency (WARNING: The image on the linked page is very large and may take a while to download). If you have a preferred site image, shoot me a link as it would be fairly easy to overlay. Please make sure at least two reference points outside of the WTC footprints are available so I can line them up accurately. Buildings on adjacent lots would be fine. The more, the merrier.
 

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