[Split]Debris piles at GZ- split from: UL Moves For Sanctions Against Morgan Reynold

WildCat said:
http://www.osha.gov/nyc-disaster/photoarchive/image4-hires.jpg
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For what reason did you repost that photo? Clearly, half of it is not only flat, it is swept with nothing more than dirt or mud, in the remainder is stacked debris.

Look, photos contain information; but one does have to examine them for content and for information, not merely post them up without assessment or analysis.

Or, in any event, that is what I would claim.
 
jammonius said:
(snip)
However, there were a lot of dump trucks involved. They were bringing in dirt in order to try to douse the after effects of DEW. Nearly 7 years later, they are still doing so.
(snip)
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Can I ask why you think dirt would be used to "douse the after effects of DEW"?

Wouldn't fire hoses/water work just as well?

What unique "after effects of DEW" require dirt?
 
Mr. Skinny said:
Can I ask why you think dirt would be used to "douse the after effects of DEW"?

Wouldn't fire hoses/water work just as well?

What unique "after effects of DEW" require dirt?
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Tell you what, why don't check out this site and let us all know what you find:

Strategic Environmental Research and Development Program (SERDP) of the U.S. Department of Defense. http://www.serdp.org/
 
jammonius said:
For what reason did you repost that photo? Clearly, half of it is not only flat, it is swept with nothing more than dirt or mud, in the remainder is stacked debris.
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It shows debris pile well over 1 story. It proves you are wrong at best, and a liar at worst.

jammonius said:
How many stories is Firehouse 10?

On what date was the photo taken?

Thanks.
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The photo was taken "in late September", and Firehouse 10 is not an underground garage.
 
jammonius said:
Tell you what, why don't check out this site and let us all know what you find:

Strategic Environmental Research and Development Program (SERDP) of the U.S. Department of Defense. http://www.serdp.org/
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I went to the site and typed in "Directed Energy Weapons and dirt" and it returned no hits.

Tell you what, why don't you just answer the question.
 
jammonius said:
That is false. The subbasements were relatively undamaged. There was no signficant collapse of those floors.
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Your statement is absolutely, utterly incorrect. All evidence points to the opposite, that the subbasement levels were heavily damaged, and that there was significant collapse of those floors.
Visual surveys indicate roughly 50% of the seven-level basement structure of the World Trade Center is now rubble as a result of the impact of the collapse of the twin 110-story towers...

...
"A significant part of the south tower fell in and collapsed everything," says Joel L. Volterra, an engineer with Mueser Rutledge Consulting Engineers, the city's local engineer on the bathtub.
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http://www.construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlines/ENR/20011008b.asp

When the twin towers collapsed, the falling structures demolished most of these supporting slabs. Portions of the permanent basement slabs crushed when the twin towers collapsed into the WTC basement.
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http://www.deepexcavation.com/casestudies4.html

Much of the tower debris that had crashed into the basement could not be removed before the 3-ft-thick walls were pinned back because, in many places, the compacted debris had replaced the floor slabs that supported the walls.
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http://www.construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlines/ENR/20020401a.asp

The primary challenge facing workers below ground is how to remove debris from the WTC's 16-acre basement without tipping over the Center's slurry wall...

... When the twin towers of the World Trade Center crashed down, so too crumbled the six supporting floors, "so the slabs are not there, the floors are not there, but the debris is doing what the floors used to do," says Daniel Hahn, senior associate engineer at the consulting company Mueser Rutledge."
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http://www.agiweb.org/geotimes/nov01/NNwtc.html


Other sources:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...937A35751C1A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B04EEDD143BF93BA2575AC0A9679C8B63

The testimony from recovery and debris-clearing workers onsite was that there was indeed significant collapse of not just the basement levels, but of debris into the WTC "tub". The final height of the debris pile is the height of the underground portion of the debris pile plus the portion which is above ground. Ergo, if you insist that the segment above ground was one story tall, you are admitting that the debris pile was multistory.
 
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jammonius said:
There are DEW in all ranges of the light spectrum, not just the visible. Moreover, as DEW exist and are deployed, your expert is woefully out of date.
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Yet still no evidence from you that a DEW can affect structural steel as you claim.
 
We actually have a stone cold liar who does not care that they are caught in the lie

Unbelievable
 
Disbelief said:
Yet still no evidence from you that a DEW can affect structural steel as you claim.
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While I have no doubt that a laser can be used to cut steel or even bring down a missle, I am interested in exactly what kind of DEW jammonius thinks was used. Specifics would be excellent, like the type of beam, wavelength, beam shape, power output, type of platform, power source, amount of power required on target and for what length of time etc., etc., otherwise this is all pie-in-the-sky fantasy.
 
jammonius said:
Greetings Myriad:

You pose the following query:

NCSTAR 1 footnotes

both media
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I'm sorry, but your response was in the form of text. Given the innumerable historical examples of how text can be used to mislead (far more easily than can scientific calculations which you reject for their deceptive potential), only answers in telepathic form are acceptable. I have cleared my mind (fortunately there wasn't too much in there to begin with) to receive your telepathic communication but you have not sent me any. I will take that as evidence of your intent to deceive me.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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Mr. Skinny said:
While I have no doubt that a laser can be used to cut steel or even bring down a missle, I am interested in exactly what kind of DEW jammonius thinks was used. Specifics would be excellent, like the type of beam, wavelength, beam shape, power output, type of platform, power source, amount of power required on target and for what length of time etc., etc., otherwise this is all pie-in-the-sky fantasy.
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I agree, as it would be interesting to see what can do what she claims. She stated earlier that the structural steel was damaged as was common with a DEW, so I was expecting her to show some proof of such a claim. Alas, it appears not to be.
 
Disbelief said:
I agree, as it would be interesting to see what can do what she claims. She stated earlier that the structural steel was damaged as was common with a DEW, so I was expecting her to show some proof of such a claim. Alas, it appears not to be.
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Jammonious can either get serious here, or not. If the discussion continues in this vein, I won't participate.
 
WildCat said:
One story jammonius? http://www.september11news.com/AftermathReuters5.jpg
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The photo posted in the above post is flat out deceptive. That photo comes from one of the holes in either WTC 5 or 6. Posters should not rely on overt deception here. It does not advance your cause.

As a matter of fact, before people start going off on basement this and sub-basement that, and slurry wall the other, hadn't one ought to have a proper frame of reference for what they are talking about? I think the answer is yes, there should be a proper frame of reference for what is being discussed.

Note: I here assert that the starting point for that part of the discussion consisted in the assertion, in response to my answering query of "what?" when someone said that 1 storey = 4 or 5 of them. I assert that 1 storey does not equal 4 or 5, rather it equals 1.

So, the answer turns out to have been that 1 = 5 or was it 6? because the basement levels were a debris field and count as part of the height meaurement.

But, in making that claim, none of you have really posted up what you're talking about. You haven't shown us what the basement levels or below ground levels of the WTC consisted in and you have not shown their relationship to the overall site.

As indicated at the outset, the photo quoted in the post to which this replies is not even of the subbasement or any part of it. In having this discussion, I am not here seeking to prove someone a liar and I am not decaring myself to have a monopoly on truth, either.

I would like to think we can be information oriented here and see what the data show, without declaring "jammonius lost, ha,ha,ha." If that is the case, then the data will pretty much show it to the be case and people do not have to engage in self-congratulation. Let the data do the talking.

Here, for rank starters, then, is the Warner Bros. Store that was located on the first sub-basement level -- that is, the level closest to the surface, right underneath the towers -- what debris?

Image107.jpg


It takes a series of photos to illustrate the nature of the underground levels at the WTC; and, here for starters is an overall depiction, providing the basic elements of the all important "bathtub" that encompassed the WTC to keep it dry. Had it been damaged -- it wasn't -- the site and much of lower Manhattan would have been flooded:

Image88.gif


1-Slurry walls form water-tight bathtub.
2-PATH rail lines pass under WTC 2.
3-Even cracks in the bathtub would allow water inside.
 
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