Reincarnation

[jon88]

Thanks for the replies. Many good points made.

Here is a question for you. If reincarnation works how does it work?

I dont see the soul as another being inside you, I see it as a consiousness, or a life energy. This energy is in every living being, and connects every living being on the planet. Once something has died, this energy moves on and finds a new life inside a womb or egg. It travels like radio waves. Once it finds new life it then enters the form of that life.

More on memory:

If the part of "you" that is your memory were controlled by something other than the brain, then memory should remain unaffected by brain changes such as stroke, brain trauma, age-related atrophy, plaques and tangles from Alzheimer's, and so on.

As we are this life energy living through the form of a human being, we obviously have the human bodys limitations as well. One of its limitations is that it can be damaged. So when someone suffers a stroke or damages their brain and loses their memory, they will be living through the human body which now hass these added limitations so will not be able to remember anything.

Hi Jon, welcome!
Is there any reason to believe Buddha knew something more about what happens after death?

After looking at his teachings and his wisdom, I felt that he could see the truth of existense better than anyone. Remember he was around 2500 years ago, and he was so wise that I felt if there one person to listen to, be it the buddha. He said that the world was round, talked about evolution and dismissed the ideas of a god. All this long before newton or darwin and other scientists. How could he possibly have known about evolution and the shape of the world.? Once you have researched Buddhism and compare it to modern phycology, I feel it is far ahead of phycology today.

Well, it’s pretty obvious that you, and many other, don’t actually require scientific investigation and reasoning at all (personal comfort seems to be enough). Thus one might ask why you don’t go for the full prize and believe in, well, heaven and such – why settle for reincarnation when you can have whatever you wish to believe?

Thats a great point, something that I have asked myself. Before looking into Buddhism, I didnt believe in any relegion, but always felt that there was something more to life than being born, living and dying and thats it. Lookin at buddhism and other spiritual teachers I feel I have found that something.

If your interested in looking at this life energy, search the divine matrix in youtube and listen to what Gregg Braden has to say.

Cheers all

 

[Hokulele]

I dont see the soul as another being inside you, I see it as a consiousness, or a life energy. This energy is in every living being, and connects every living being on the planet. Once something has died, this energy moves on and finds a new life inside a womb or egg. It travels like radio waves. Once it finds new life it then enters the form of that life.

If energy "enters" an embryo either in the womb or an egg, it would be possible to measure such an event. It should also be possible to measure the energy leaving an organism when it dies. Several people have tried such experiments, and all have failed thus far. Although the concept of "life energy" may give you a nice fuzzy warm feeling, there just isn't any evidence of such.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

As we are this life energy living through the form of a human being, we obviously have the human bodys limitations as well. One of its limitations is that it can be damaged. So when someone suffers a stroke or damages their brain and loses their memory, they will be living through the human body which now hass these added limitations so will not be able to remember anything.

First of all energy is a word that actually has a meaning, but the way you're using it is inconsistent with that meaning. Could you explain what you mean by "life energy"?

Second, what you say about my point makes no sense.

If "we" have the same "limitations" as the body, then "we" would also end at death. You've avoided my question. If these mind activities (that seem to be the result of brain activities) can continue unaffected after the body dies, then why is it that they can't continue unaffected after the kinds of brain injuries I mentioned?

Conversely, if these things (memory, for instance) are affected by brain injury, how is it that you can claim they are unaffected by brain death?

Further, if this life energy that is "living through a body" is limited by the body, why isn't that same life energy limited by the undeveloped brain of a new born?

You claim children who can speak still have memories of a past life, but that memory not only had to span a time when one brain was dead (much worse than a stroke or Alzheimer's!) but also continued even though an newborn's brain isn't capable of processing memory yet (much less sustaining memory that depends on language).

Further, do you know that memory has been proven to be plastic and easily manipulated? Many who believe in reincarnation think that memory works like a video recording of events that is stored somewhere. This has been proven not to be the case.

 

[Fnord]

How does one go about measuring the soul?

What physical properties does a soul have?

That 1907 experiment by Dr. MacDougall notwithstanding, there has been no reliable measurement made of a soul. Why is this?

I'm not looking for mere philosophy here. I'm seeking a definitive answer - something practical and useful.

That is, assuming that 'The Soul' is something more than a sophist's immaterial construct.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Is there any difference between what you call "life energy" and the concept of a "soul" or "spirit"?

I think there is not. Just misusing the word "energy" to make it sound less like a supernatural or religious concept doesn't make it so. Using the word "energy" the way you do adds nothing to the meaning of what you are saying (as compared to using a word such as "soul").

 

[Loss Leader]

However we are all free to have our beliefs and ideas, and I simply see reincarnation as a better belief. Its more comforting to believe you have many chances at life instead of just one. For me that feeling outweighs the need to scientifically prove it.

So long as you recognize that you have chosen your beliefs based on personal predeliction and that there is nothing objectively true about them, I am very happy to allow you the freedom to indulge yourself.

However, please never mistake your "comforting" beliefs with reality. Never believe that they are true simply because they are unfalsifiable. There are an infinite number of unfalsifiable ideas in the universe and each one has exactly the same weight as the next. It is up to the person who promotes a system of belief to prove its truth, not vice-versa. And you cannot do that.

I wish you well in your quest for spiritual peace.

 

[JoeEllison]

I don't believe a word of it.

 

[Mashuna]

After looking at his teachings and his wisdom, I felt that he could see the truth of existense better than anyone. Remember he was around 2500 years ago, and he was so wise that I felt if there one person to listen to, be it the buddha. He said that the world was round, talked about evolution and dismissed the ideas of a god. All this long before newton or darwin and other scientists. How could he possibly have known about evolution and the shape of the world.?

Well, Aristotle was writing about a spherical earth around that time, so it wasn't unheard of. What exactly was the buddha saying about evolution?

 

[Civilized Worm]

I suppose if your coming from a scientific skeptical mindset this is not a belief that you could take on yourself as it goes against western science. If you require scientific evidence to believe in something then reincarnation is not for you. However personally I dont need science to tell me it does or doesnt exist. Human conciousness is a vast topic and quite simply for me the view of science is too black and white. For me the buddha knew more about it than a scientist could ever know.

If you're not interested in what science or reason have to say then why are you asking us our views? Of course we're going to come at it from a sceptical angle, this is a sceptic forum. What did you hope to achieve by coming here?

 

[Bikewer]

All the things that are commonly cited as "evidence" of reincarnation are now much better explained by other things.
"Child prodigies" were once felt to be such evidence; a gifted child musician "must have been a musician in a previous life." But we know now that the prodigy thing is more closely related to autism; a hyperdevelopment of one area of the mind usually associated with less development elsewhere.
"He looks just like uncle Abdul!" (and has some mannerisms too...) before we knew anything about DNA and how physical traits are passed on, and also how receptive very young children are to picking up mannerisms and speech patterns.

"Memories" of past lives would have been convincing to primitive people, and should be vastly less so to us with our greater understanding of psychology and just how inventive and creative our minds are. Not that this deters "regression therapy" hacks....

 

[jon88]

If you're not interested in what science or reason have to say then why are you asking us our views? Of course we're going to come at it from a sceptical angle, this is a sceptic forum. What did you hope to achieve by coming here?

I don't know really. Didnt want to achieve anything I just wanted to discuss reincarnation. Probably picked the wrong forum.

Out of interest, what do you guys get out of skepticism? I'm not attacking anyone here im just genuinly interested. Obviously a bit of skeptism is healthy but on these forums there is a lot of skeptism. Does it give you pleasure to prove or dissaprove a theory? Doesnt it get boring living life so scepitically?

When it comes to spirituality, no amount of arguing about this not being proven and this experiment being carried out properly is going to help you. I believe in it because of the feeling I get from it, like a deep knowing. This is something my brain cant really understand. And out of the endless brain chatter trying to understand, or the silence, I know which I prefer.

I see it like this. Science can teach you about a fruit. It can tell you what it looks like, its chemical properties, what it feels like etc. But until you have tasted the fruit, you can never say you have truly experienced it. Ultimately the proof lies not in the intellect, but the feeling and experience you have.

 

[Rodney]

"Child prodigies" were once felt to be such evidence; a gifted child musician "must have been a musician in a previous life." But we know now that the prodigy thing is more closely related to autism; a hyperdevelopment of one area of the mind usually associated with less development elsewhere.

We do? Please document -- you can start with Mendelssohn and Mozart.

 

[fuelair]

Here is a question for you. If reincarnation works how does it work?

I mean lets say I die in a minute - how long does my whatever wait around to find another body to be reborn into? Is there a Que? Do I have to take a test in the - where do I go anyway? --- to qualify for the next body? Like if I get an A on the test do I get to come back as some swank millionaire who gets to have menage a trios every night but if I get a C I come back as Ben Stein or something?

and if people are jsut in this spinning wash machine from beginning to end how do you explain the increase population?


Hey MAYBE that's it. All the new souls are born again fundies with their souls up their buts!? Or do the soul(?) just divide - maybe that's why there are so many knuckleheads out there.


Oh also, WHY is EVERYONE a reincarnation of some FAMOUS person like Kings and queens and such but are total losers in this life? You can't believe the number of people I've met who were Louis the XIV for example.

Sorry, but you have to live out 10 bug lifes and get an F on the test (it's all multiple choice though) to come back as Ben Stein. And you don't want to know what it takes to come back as an equivalent of Idi Amin.

 

[kerikiwi]

I don't know really. Didnt want to achieve anything I just wanted to discuss reincarnation. Probably picked the wrong forum.

Out of interest, what do you guys get out of skepticism? I'm not attacking anyone here im just genuinly interested. Obviously a bit of skeptism is healthy but on these forums there is a lot of skeptism. Does it give you pleasure to prove or dissaprove a theory? Doesnt it get boring living life so scepitically?

When it comes to spirituality, no amount of arguing about this not being proven and this experiment being carried out properly is going to help you. I believe in it because of the feeling I get from it, like a deep knowing. This is something my brain cant really understand. And out of the endless brain chatter trying to understand, or the silence, I know which I prefer.

I see it like this. Science can teach you about a fruit. It can tell you what it looks like, its chemical properties, what it feels like etc. But until you have tasted the fruit, you can never say you have truly experienced it. Ultimately the proof lies not in the intellect, but the feeling and experience you have.

You did not pick the wrong forum to discuss reincarnation or any other flight of fancy. Discussion does not mean agreement. But if you meant you wanted to affirm your beliefs, then yes, you picked the wrong forum.
What do we get out of skepticism? An understanding of the wonderful universe we live in.
Yes, there is pleasure in disproving a theory. It's a great feeling and experience.
Why would inquiring into all things be boring?
It seems you think skepticism means negativity. You are wrong.
You prefer to believe things because they make you feel good, regardless of their truth.
Others prefer to inquire and understand.

 

[Hokulele]

Out of interest, what do you guys get out of skepticism? I'm not attacking anyone here im just genuinly interested. Obviously a bit of skeptism is healthy but on these forums there is a lot of skeptism. Does it give you pleasure to prove or dissaprove a theory? Doesnt it get boring living life so scepitically?

I do not find life boring at all. There are many things that give me pleasure, several of which can be found in the various threads in the Community section of this forum. Watching the moon occult Saturn in a telescope evokes feelings of awe and beauty, surfing on a big wave is exhilarating and sometimes terrifying, cooking (and eating) a fancy dinner with good friends is satisfying in many ways, singing at the top of my lungs as I drive down the highway is uplifting, and snuggling up to my husband on the couch at night is comforting. None of these are any less fulfilling because I enjoy thinking critically.

When it comes to spirituality, no amount of arguing about this not being proven and this experiment being carried out properly is going to help you. I believe in it because of the feeling I get from it, like a deep knowing. This is something my brain cant really understand. And out of the endless brain chatter trying to understand, or the silence, I know which I prefer.

Honestly, I get the same feeling, like a deep knowing, from knowing. The observable universe is a fascinating thing, and there are many questions and challenges that can be faced with the scientific method that are much more satisfying than most spiritual questions. This is mainly because there is a very good chance that the answers can do so much more than merely feed one's own sense of self. From what I have seen, all questions of spirituality tend to be extremely selfish and self-centered.

For example, pondering the question of whether or not I will be reincarnated may bring me a sense of comfort, but applying the same effort to developing a cure for cancer could potentially bring real comfort to millions.

I see it like this. Science can teach you about a fruit. It can tell you what it looks like, its chemical properties, what it feels like etc. But until you have tasted the fruit, you can never say you have truly experienced it. Ultimately the proof lies not in the intellect, but the feeling and experience you have.

Science can tell you which fruits to avoid.

 

[Magyar]

Out of interest, what do you guys get out of skepticism? I'm not attacking anyone here im just genuinly interested. Obviously a bit of skeptism is healthy but on these forums there is a lot of skeptism. Does it give you pleasure to prove or dissaprove a theory? Doesnt it get boring living life so scepitically?

The REAL world is a far more intersting, exciting and incredible world than any nonsense feeble minded humans have been able to come up with - from organized religion to modern day mystical nonsense they all PALE by comparison to reality. Discovering and coming to understand this reality is far more pleasurable an endevour then swallowing the mindless idiotic twattle you or any of the other woos I've ever heard produce.

The bad side is that this puts skeptics into a minority and it forces skeptics to face some realities. See bellow

When it comes to spirituality, no amount of arguing about this not being proven and this experiment being carried out properly is going to help you. I believe in it because of the feeling I get from it, like a deep knowing. This is something my brain cant really understand. And out of the endless brain chatter trying to understand, or the silence, I know which I prefer.

As someone already pointed out, you are welcome to believe WHAT EVER you like as long as you realize (and I know you won't) that you are being intellectually dishonest and lazy and a moral coward when you buy into the song and dance of your chosen woo. This is my main objection to to all religion. Why do I say this?

There is NO difference between the thought process you exhibited above and those of the
heroin junky, suicide bombers, hate groups and a whole host of other evils whose root cause is this "like a deep knowing" while displaying a willfull ignorance to reality that is available to you.

Dealing with this reality can be frightening because part of it is having to face just how insignificant you are in the world. This scares most people, as it has seemed to scare you, and one all too frequent reaction to this fright is to run to some woo that can be spoon fed to you without any work from you to face reality, face your fear or question any morality. All you have to do is be just like Dorothy and wish for it.

I see it like this. Science can teach you about a fruit. It can tell you what it looks like, its chemical properties, what it feels like etc. But until you have tasted the fruit, you can never say you have truly experienced it. Ultimately the proof lies not in the intellect, but the feeling and experience you have.

HORSESH8 WITHOUT THE SCIENCE you have NO FRICKING idea whether you are in fact
tasting the actual fruit or an artificial flavoring with red dye #8 that some snakeoil charlatan sold you. You are again displaying the mind of a spoiled child who wants his cake and eat it too. You want to believe that YOU are so special that you can just get the fruit spoon fed to you WITHOUT having to till the earth, plant the seed and pull the weeds.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Out of interest, what do you guys get out of skepticism? I'm not attacking anyone here im just genuinly interested. Obviously a bit of skeptism is healthy but on these forums there is a lot of skeptism. Does it give you pleasure to prove or dissaprove a theory? Doesnt it get boring living life so scepitically?

Reality is incredibly exciting. It's way better than the most outlandish "spiritual" wishful thinking fiction you can come up with.

When it comes to spirituality, no amount of arguing about this not being proven and this experiment being carried out properly is going to help you. I believe in it because of the feeling I get from it, like a deep knowing.

I hope you realize that you're using "knowing" in some sort of figurative way. What you describe is believing, not knowing.

I see it like this. Science can teach you about a fruit. It can tell you what it looks like, its chemical properties, what it feels like etc. But until you have tasted the fruit, you can never say you have truly experienced it. Ultimately the proof lies not in the intellect, but the feeling and experience you have.

I look at it like this: you can dream about a fictional type of fruit, but the ONLY one you can experience is the real one.

Science and skepticism lead you to much better descriptions of reality than stuff that's made up regardless of (or in spite of) the evidence.

 

[jon88]

You did not pick the wrong forum to discuss reincarnation or any other flight of fancy. Discussion does not mean agreement. But if you meant you wanted to affirm your beliefs, then yes, you picked the wrong forum.
What do we get out of skepticism? An understanding of the wonderful universe we live in.
Yes, there is pleasure in disproving a theory. It's a great feeling and experience.
Why would inquiring into all things be boring?
It seems you think skepticism means negativity. You are wrong.
You prefer to believe things because they make you feel good, regardless of their truth.
Others prefer to inquire and understand.

I see. I actually dont believe in things just because of the feelings to me. Its just that what defines my truth is different. To me when it comes to spirituality I see it as the truth, but my truth comes from feeling and intuition rather than scientific proof. My own experience to me is more truthful than scientific evidence.

I dont think that skepticism is negative, but there seems to me to be an attitude of wanting to prove people wrong. When I mentioned Stevenson and reincarnation, there wasnt any acknowledgement that some of his work you just cant explain. As far as skeptics are concerned the families could have been lying, or stevenson didnt carry out strict enough research, so thats enough to dissaprove it. What about if the families wernt lying?.

Skeptics come from the mind set that anything to do with conspiracy theorys or weird stuff is rubbish, and they try to find the holes in it. Coming from any mindset will affect your judgement. If I come fron the mindset that I was born on the planet mars, I will find and percieve evidence that suggests this. How about coming from an open mind, one that sees clearly and and is not judgemental. I dont mean to sound patronising if I am, but maybe if you analyze yourself, you may find this to be true.

 

[Fnord]

Spirituality is ...

... a man without a library ... and the library has no books ... and each book is without pages ... and upon each page, there are no words ... and the words themselves have no meaning ... as read by an illiterate man ... a man without a library ...

​

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Its just that what defines my truth is different. To me when it comes to spirituality I see it as the truth, but my truth comes from feeling and intuition rather than scientific proof. My own experience to me is more truthful than scientific evidence.

You have a strange definition of "truth". Do you think that something that is false scientifically can be true to you?

I have a theory that a great many people who believe in things supernatural (especially the more "New Age" type of beliefs) also believe that there is no single objective reality but that each person can create (or create by perception) their own universe. I think this is also reflected in the use of language. I've been commenting on your uses of "energy" and "knowing" and now "truth", but I've seen far more egregious examples where someone uses a word to mean something that no one else would think it means.

The trouble with this approach is that it makes communication difficult, if not impossible. Language works by convention. A word means what it means because we mostly agree on what it means.

If you start coming up with your own meanings, just like inventing your own personal "truth" or your own subjective universe, you give up the chance of communicating effectively--especially about the reality that we all share.

Science and evidence-based knowledge also has much better results than "truth" based on subjective experience or feeling and intuition. The computer you're reading this on is just one example. My guess is you're surrounded by technology like this (TV, stereo, GPS, drugs in your medicine cabinet, etc.)--which system of discerning the "truth" do you think led to this technology?

What has the system based on personal feeling and intuition given us? Sylvia Browne? Astrology? Conflicting notions of reincarnation and the afterlife? Other unproven ideas based on wishful thinking?