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Bill Henson Photos: Child Pornography or Art?

So politicians from different sides contradict themselves. Bugger me.
 
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Yes you did ask that. And I answered you. So you just ask the question again.
You really are a strange fellow, lionking.
 
lionking said:
Well if you can't see that Turnbull and Rudd have contradictory views over this matter, I'm lost for words.
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That would be contradicting each other.
You are indeed lost for words.
 
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It is actually quite easy to find pictures on the internet of Bill Henson's work. Type his name into google and hit the "images" link, and you will find pages of thumbnails to peruse. For those who claim his work is not erotic, here is one non-nude picture:

luminous_wideweb__430x293.jpg


I do not know the age of the model.

So here is a thought experiment. If she is 13, is this art or child pornography? I don't think so (or I wouldn't have posted it). If she were naked instead of wearing a bra and panties, would it be art or child pornography? To me, had the two been naked, this would be kiddie porn. Bill Henson is playing very close to the line. That is part of what makes him interesting.

Not having seen all the pictures from the exhibition in question, I cannot truthfully say if what the police did is legit or an overreaction.
 
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gdnp said:
... is this art or child pornography? I don't think so...
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Hu? ;)

OTOH, why should we know the age of the models in the first place? Why is it so important for the appreciation of art?

People here (directly involved in the OP issue) seem to be playing with deep psychological mechanisms. Do they have a case?
 
Chupacabras said:
Hu? ;)

OTOH, why should we know the age of the models in the first place? Why is it so important for the appreciation of art?

People here (directly involved in the OP issue) seem to be playing with deep psychological mechanisms. Do they have a case?
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I seriously don't think so. I threw down the gauntlet on actual evidence, and they took one look at the gauntlet and ran away. Now we're back to the same ol' 'what ifs' etc.

It's more 'case based on staple gunning our personal hangups to some other phenomena.' It's the same as the xtians who can't discuss homosexual marriage without bringing up polygamy, beastality, or necrophilia.
 
BillyJoe said:
There is no need for you to protect MobySeven.
If he feels offended he can easily say so himself.
As far as I know we are still friends.
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Indeed - to completely jump from quite good terms to bad on the basis of a few posts would be petty indeed. That said, I did find your post rather condescending - I assure you that I do not hold the position I hold because I'm some twenty year old know-it-all. I've thought this through, and discussed it with others.

When I presented my point of view, however, I was told that I was obsessed with sexuality and knew nothing about art (not by you). Another person then responded to my post with by saying that children aren't able to make an informed decision about going to the park, that they are able to make an informed medical decisions (some better than adults), and that therefore they are able to make an informed decision about being photographed in the nude. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that response came from left field bizarro world.

So you'll excuse me if I bow out of this conversation, because quite frankly I've had enough. I have better things to do with my time than participate in a conversation where people accuse me of being a sexual deviant for the heinous crime of thinking a child might not fully understand the ramifications of posing naked for a photographer. It's nothing personal against you BillyJoe, but I'm outta here.
 
Chupacabras said:
Hu? ;)

OTOH, why should we know the age of the models in the first place? Why is it so important for the appreciation of art?
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sorry for the ambiguity. I think you got my point.

As to the age of the models, this is not relevant if it is art, but it is relevant if it is porn. Adult porn is legal. Kiddie porn is not.

People here (directly involved in the OP issue) seem to be playing with deep psychological mechanisms. Do they have a case?
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The point I was trying to make here is that people have said that just because the children are nude does not mean they are pornographic or even erotic. I suspect without actually looking at the pictures. I stated that I found some of the pictures erotic, and was told that this says more about me than about the photos. So I defy anyone to tell me they do not find the photo I posted as fitting any reasonable definition of "erotic".
 
lionking said:
So politicians from different sides contradict themselves. Bugger me.
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Oppositional politics. You can be sure that if the University of Melbourne takes a stance on this, the Student Union will be right behind them disagreeing vehemently.
 
gdnp said:
It is actually quite easy to find pictures on the internet of Bill Henson's work. Type his name into google and hit the "images" link, and you will find pages of thumbnails to peruse. For those who claim his work is not erotic, here is one non-nude picture:

[qimg]http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/04/26/luminous_wideweb__430x293.jpg[/qimg]

I do not know the age of the model.

So here is a thought experiment. If she is 13, is this art or child pornography? I don't think so (or I wouldn't have posted it). If she were naked instead of wearing a bra and panties, would it be art or child pornography? To me, had the two been naked, this would be kiddie porn. Bill Henson is playing very close to the line. That is part of what makes him interesting.

Not having seen all the pictures from the exhibition in question, I cannot truthfully say if what the police did is legit or an overreaction.
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Like many of his pictures it is very atmospheric and dark. Personally I find it moody but not erotic. However I appreciate others might have different tastes but I don't think it is inherent in the picture. I can't tell how old the couple are but clearly they are not little children. Is it a bra and pants or a swim suit even?

However, the picture is the picture, if they were younger, if they were naked, if they were having sex. If it were child porn would it be child porn? - well obviously yes but it isn't.

A complaint was made and the police have acted. A similar thing happened in the UK not so long ago and the decision was "no case to answer" the pictures returned and the exhibition went ahead. Will the same thing happen in this case?
 
lionking said:
Are you suggesting that police took action for no reason at all? Some day you may have to acknowledge that Australia does not operate according to your moral code. In the meantime, enjoy your imaginery highground.

Neither you or anyone else has put a convincing case for the ability of a child to give informed consent to nude photographs of themselves.
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Ok, since you don't seem to want to answer my questions, let me rephrase them to something more similar to what you are asking.

You seem to be stating that a child cannot give informed consent to have nude photographs of themselves taken.

Can a child give informed consent to have clothed photographs taken of them?
Can a child give informed consent to have photographs taken of them while in a bathing suit?
Can a child give informed consent to have photographs taken of them in underwear?
Can a child give informed consent to have photographs taken of them in a g-string? In pasties? Nude, but covered by hands or other objects?

I am honestly curious at what point you think the child loses the ability to give informed consent.

ETA: Also, when you are talking about a child, are you talking about a 4-year old? A 10-year old? A 17-year old?
 
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This will probably just drive anti-Henson posters to run away again, but I have to ask what you guys think the purpose or role of art in society is? Why do you think it's worth protecting at all?
 
To express ideas in a creative way; to inspire and challenge people to think.

Freedom of Expression is a value worth protecting in many societies.
 
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