What's Wrong With Richard Dawkins?

Unless Dawkins states that he regards faith as fixed, false belief, which is highly unlikely, even for him, we are safe to assume that the title "God delusion" refers to a pathological belief from mental illness.


Why are we "safe to assume" that? Of course if you'd bothered to read the book you'd know that he meant delusion as a false or unfounded belief. But then I would have thought most people would realise that.
 
I'll have to agree, it's not particularly useful.

While I like how Dawkins isn't wearing the kid gloves and isn't treating religion like the woman in the dress, he's still not getting anywhere useful by his methods. At the very least, plastering it up on the cover of his book isn't guaranteed to sell.

Still, he sold a very great many copies in spite of the title. And he did have a great many other arguments besides "they're delusional". I say that the good outweighs the bad; even if he didn't bring anything new to the table, he still wrote it in a very down-to-earth way that was easier for me to understand, and to articulate what I already thought.


I disagree, I think "the God Delusion" is a good title because it gets right to the point and is more likely to grab peoples' attention than "Breaking the Spell" or "the End of Faith". It's the kind of title that gets a reaction.

I also disagree that he's "not getting anywhere useful". Sure the amount of out right converts may not be that much, but he's given a lot of atheists confidence in their lack of belief and most importantly he's brought the issues out in to the open to be discussed and debated.
 
Indeed. Sometimes you need to let people know they have something on their face to get them to look in the mirror. Ridiculousness responds to scorn. If you can't prove that it's not ridiculous to run around pretending the Emperor is wearing magical clothes, then by golly, prepare to be ridiculed by folks like me. I wish there were adults brave enough to do it for me when I was a kid.
 
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He's not saying that the word "delusion" is only used as a psychiatric term. He's saying that the title "The God Delusion", when translated into German, was translated into "Der Gottes Wahn", and Wahn has a very specific meaning, so the meaning particularly meant for The God Delusion is the one that was translated -- and we know that translations are always without error, right? ;)

In fact, "Wahn" would be more appropriately translated as "madness", "insanity" or "lunacy" in most cases. "Fieberwahn" would be "delirious (because of fever)" and I think that "delirious" has quite different connotations from "delusional" as well.

I've never been happy with the German translation of the title. Where "god delusion" is a "factually incorrect idea about god" I would see "Gotteswahn" in a different light. (Something the 9-11 terrorists might have suffered from: The insane notion that they ought to fly airplanes into buildings because of their god.")
 
Let´s say my sister believes in a deist god, one who set the motions of the universe and does not intervene at all. How could Dawkins attack that argument? He can´t. I don´t think believers have any problem with God definitions or even contradictions in its definition because it is just a matter of faith. Like I have faith that there will be world peace, can you refute it or deny that claim?


He can attack it with Ockhams Razor, just like you would attack any baseless, unfalsifiable claim.


Then how can he possibly attack something he doesn´t even know what it is? He is supposed to be a scientist, I would have started by defining my object of investigation to begin with. He picked the easiest one, the jewish or roman catholic god.


He does define it, he defines god as a supernatural being that created the universe.


I dont remember saying they are compatible, I would say they are two ways to interpret reality, one based on hard evidence and another based on faith.
The example of Isaac Newton shows that you can still be an intelligent human being while you believe in non scientific stuff. I do not see any wrong with that, UNLESS you have to kill someone for their opposite beliefs or call them stupid.
Dawkins cannot stand this situation, he goes crazy and becomes hostile when he founds that some people choose to believe in god despite lack of hard evidence. I do not see a problem. Who is he, who am I or who are you to decide what other people SHOULD or SHOULD not believe?


Got any examples of Dawkins "going crazy and becoming hostile"? I don't think he's ever denied that perfectly intelligent people can and do believe in god, you're attacking a strawman.
 
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You confuse "proof" with "truth".
Your magical sphere is wrong again.

The fact one doesn't prove a truth doesn't make it false.
Very good. Because nothing at all makes a truth false, since a truth is true by definition of the word.

A useful theory would be a true one. A false theory would eventually 'prove' to be less useful.
Not at all! Since you couldn't find any mentioning of "truth" in the Wiki text about theories, you simply dream-up a relation between usefulness and truth here, adhoc. Don't move on, you'll inevitably run your head against the brick wall.
 
Belief in invisible entities talking to you in ways indistinguishable from schizophrenic delusions or mythological characters or imaginary friends IS delusional... even if it's just a nebulous entity you call god and can't describe but you somehow "believe" he wants you to have faith in him. He wants you to pretend the emperor is wearing clothes even though you don't see a stitch of clothing... he wants you to trust that others do.

Isn't that what all religion is about? How isn't one as delusional as any other? How isn't it delusional to believe that consciousness not only can, but "does" exist in immaterial forms and that people can "know" about these invisible entities through "faith" and "feelings" and "revelations" and so forth? And how can you tell a real true invisible/ immeasurable entity from an imaginary one? And why isn't the sanest option not to believe in any such things until or unless the evidence warrants it.

That is delusional know matter how you slice it. Sorry. It is. Try to explain how it's less delusional than rain dancing or other kinds of magical thinking. Go ahead. If you don't think it's delusional... don't get mad at me or Dawkins-- show us evidence why it's less delusional than the stuff YOU'd call delusional. I suspect that people are mad at Dawkins because that is much easier than understanding that there is no more reason to consider their beliefs more credible than all those wacky myths and beliefs that those "other" people have that they don't "believe in".

Why isn't it delusional to believe in invisible forms of consciousness? What else would you call it? Why should people be made to feel special for having one particular type of delusion? Doesn't all the actual evidence we have show that consciousness depends upon a material brain? And despite eons of beliefs in invisible entities from demons, to unicorns to sprites to gods to souls to ghosts to angels-- we haven't an iota of evidence! And if someone believes in gods-- doesn't that make them vulnerable to anyone who claims to know what this god wants? If they believe in eternal souls, aren't they vulnerable to anyone who can convince them that they have "secret" about how these souls can lead happier eternities?

So yes-- it's delusional... the more strongly you believe in such things despite this overwhelming lack of evidence coupled with the overwhelming knowledge we've come to accumulate as to how people fool themselves-- then you are delusional. You are as "delusional" as those convinced the earth was flat. You're not necessarily bad or stupid or anything... you ARE ignorant... and you ARE delusional. Even if I don't say it... I think it. I was delusional too. Talking about it like this helped me see this. Provoking the questions I provoke and Dawkins provoked and Randi provoked helped me understand this. I don't care if people are delusional... unless they think it's something ennobling and pass it on to the kiddies with threats of hell so it will take. I don't care , except they need to demonize atheists to keep their nutty delusion from seeming delusional to them. Theists want to be respected and not mocked for their childish beliefs, but they make me afraid to speak up about my lack of belief. They do not give the respect they want in return. Nor do apologists. If they don't want to know about my atheism, they just need to keep their beliefs as private as they want me to keep mine and Scientologists to keep theirs. That isn't too much to ask is it. If you want to be taken seriously, learn to spell and speak and actually read the people you criticize... quit pretending to know stuff... provide evidence of your claims-- examine your biases... be on tenth the man Dawkins is.

I think it's wrong because it makes people ignorant and afraid to think while feeling "in on" divine secrets they must indoctrinate into others. Moreover, it causes them to have to see "ill intent" that isn't there to "keep the faith". It's just the way Scientology HAS to see those who speak out against Scientology as suppressive people. How is the attacks upon Dawkins ire any different than that? Where's the evidence. Where is he or any atheist as nasty as theists I've linked:

More for memorial day, btw:

http://www.youtube.com/user/blairscott

Of course the theists and apologists won't watch this... they want to believe in and encourage the evil atheist and the "faith is harmless" delusion whether than discuss facts or evidence or anything real.
 
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Let´s say my sister believes in a deist god, one who set the motions of the universe and does not intervene at all. How could Dawkins attack that argument?
With logic. If the deist god was undetectable, how did your sister ever find out about the existence of such a god in the first place? A deist god would not have had a Bible written. A deist god would not be answering prayers or intervening in anyone's lives.

Another way this has been described is to say a deist god is so undetectable as to be irrelevant.


I don´t think believers have any problem with God definitions or even contradictions in its definition because it is just a matter of faith. Like I have faith that there will be world peace, can you refute it or deny that claim?
Yes, one just need look at the evidence. Currently, there is an entire human history of conflict which supports the conclusion world peace is not going to come anytime soon. You may be able to make a case that as we advance as a species and as globalization increased we are trending toward eventual world peace. I would need to look more closely at the evidence to know if there was a trend or if it was an illusion.


Then how can he possibly attack something he doesn´t even know what it is? He is supposed to be a scientist, I would have started by defining my object of investigation to begin with. He picked the easiest one, the jewish or roman catholic god.
This is not true either. I know what god beliefs are, they are myths. If you follow the evidence instead of starting with the conclusion, the evidence is overwhelming that god beliefs developed as humans tried to explain natural phenomena in the Universe. The nature of our brains are that we seek causes for things we observe and experience. An illness or a crop failure must have a cause. When humans were just figuring things out, magical causes looked like an explanation. A ritual with a coincident good outcome led to trying the same ritual again. If the outcome the next time was bad, then the conclusion was, something must have been different.

At first poor conclusions were drawn. Recently the human species made advances in observation skills and in understanding how to interpret the evidence. The progress has followed a logarithmic scale and we are beginning the upward spike now in our lifetimes.

The observations tell us god beliefs are all myths and leftover magical thinking. And we can confirm this by the evidence. Most telling is the fact that as I said, science is successful, magical thinking is not.


I dont remember saying they are compatible, I would say they are two ways to interpret reality, one based on hard evidence and another based on faith.
The example of Isaac Newton shows that you can still be an intelligent human being while you believe in non scientific stuff. I do not see any wrong with that, UNLESS you have to kill someone for their opposite beliefs or call them stupid.
Dawkins cannot stand this situation, he goes crazy and becomes hostile when he founds that some people choose to believe in god despite lack of hard evidence. I do not see a problem. Who is he, who am I or who are you to decide what other people SHOULD or SHOULD not believe?
It is hard for theists, agnostics and some atheists to understand the viewpoint I and others like me have. It is not so much that I condemn theist beliefs as it is I simply refuse to coddle them. I refuse to go along with the I'm OK, you're OK position because I don't believe it. Faith based beliefs are no different than all non-evidence based beliefs. I don't buy the claim science deals with the how and religion deals with the why. I think that is just too apologetic and it is not supported by the evidence. There is no evidence supporting the nonsensical claim I need god beliefs in order to be a moral person.

To be fair about Dawkins and other more activist atheists, however, they are reacting to the attempt by some theists to impose their religious beliefs into the scientific realm and it is simply very bad science.

It is up to them. You can provide evidence, you can talk about your point of view but you can never force them to adhere to your world view by belittle them. This is what I learnt when I became a hard atheist and started attacking believers and calling deluded, it didnt make me happy to see them humiliated and abused. At the end, I was not making any progress. They held to their beliefs even stronger.
Now you are simply talking about tactics. There is a time to be accommodating and a time to take a more forceful stand. When Creationists want to stack the courts, government and school boards with people who interfere with science, it is a reason to be more forceful. Someone has to fight back against the propaganda machine of the believers.
 
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Dawkins is equally dismissive or appalled of all woo... like Penn Jillette... people just "hear" the anti god woo as being so much more than it is-- they hear what isn't there to keep from understanding that god woo is no different than other woo... and can be a hell of a lot more dangerous. It's way more potentially dangerous than "lack of belief"-- and yet the faithful are trained to fear the latter... despite the fact that Dawkins lack of belief in their woo is on par with their lack of belief in all other woo. It's "nothing"... "it's harmless"... it's "rational"... it makes sense not to believe in things for which there is no evidence and which seems to be kept afloat through fear and promises regarding some unproven next life.
 
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Hey, dude. Glad we're back on the old disagreement track. You saw me speachless'n shocked when you agreed to me all of a sudden! :D

OK then, here in this case I think the predicates are inappropriate. "Fixed" somehow doesn't fit, because believers do convert to atheism, don't they? "False" mismatches because, as Dawkins explicitely says, such falsehood cannot be prooved, it is just very likely. I'd very much agree to him on this, even.

No one said delusions cannot be cured:) But for the tenure of their existence there is a fixed belief.

About faleshood.

Here's something for you to consider in general that may help you. I suspect there are not many skeptics that fail to understand that proving a negative is a logical impossibility. False in the sense skeptics almost always mean it is "lack of truth". Which implies lack of import and lack of meaning. This is pointed out a lot but overlooked, and it can sometimes be deliberate or through ignorance. W

What can be said of any deistic position is that it lacks truthiness;)

We posit a practical equivalence between "not in the set of the provable" and "useless to consider pending proof". I doubt there are many people who would call themselves skeptics who would claim there is zero probability of god, nor anything else.

As a result of this when you hang on to falsehood as something to be proved it makes you look either ill informed, or deliberately intellectually honest. We don't care to prove falsehood. It's a logical impossibility. Deistic claims often hang on the inability to do just this logically impossible thing, which makes skeptics and logicians roll our eyes and have pessimistic feelings about the future of humanity.

We agree on something again! I must be doing something wrong...

It's look like we are agreeing again, I feel the same way;D
 
With logic. If the deist god was undetectable, how did your sister ever find out about the existence of such a god in the first place? A deist god would not have had a Bible written. A deist god would not be answering prayers or intervening in anyone's lives.

Another way this has been described is to say a deist god is so undetectable as to be irrelevant.

What is the difference between a deist god, and an imaginary friend who always listens to you, and is always there for you?
 
Group selection isn't even woo, it's just a rival scientific theory. This is just how scientists talk, they're used to criticising flawed and failed theoriest in the strongest of terms, and some scientists like Dawkins see no reason to dumb down when discussing other truth claims such as those made by religion.
 
No one uses imaginary friends as justifications to manipulate others. Monotheistic gods evolved from polytheistic gods which evolved from deistic gods.

Hmm.. which come to think of it may have evolved from imaginary friends;)
 
Your magical sphere is wrong again.


Very good. Because nothing at all makes a truth false, since a truth is true by definition of the word.


Not at all! Since you couldn't find any mentioning of "truth" in the Wiki text about theories, you simply dream-up a relation between usefulness and truth here, adhoc. Don't move on, you'll inevitably run your head against the brick wall.
If there is anything useful in this reply, I cannot find it.
 
Gods are all born from magical thinking-- spawns of human thought.

Delusional thinking.

Which can be cured.

But first one has to admit to the problem.
 
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What is the difference between a deist god, and an imaginary friend who always listens to you, and is always there for you?
There are similarities and differences, it depends on which aspects of the beliefs you want to look at. Is there a point to this question?
 
Yes it can.

Theory: There are intelligent extra terrestrial life forms.

Intelligent extra terrestrial lifeform: Hello.

Theory = verified.
 
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